What comics do you CGC?

[sandman]

I have a few key silver age comics that aren't in great condition and I'm curious if I should spend the money to get them CGC'd. What is everyone's opinion on CGC? I know there were a lot of comments on CCG? (I think that's the other company).

Is it worth getting a comic with tears or even tape marks graded?

For example these are the comics I'm considering getting graded:

Amazing Spiderman # 17 - 2nd Green Goblin -Spine is broken, water stains and creases on cover. Esentially a reading copy. (NM $820)

Amazing #300 x2 - 1st Venom - Decent shape, slight miscut on cover, second copy essentially a reading copy (NM $80)

Green Lantern # 76 - 1st Neal Adams - decent shape, small tear on cover (NM $250)

The Atom #1 - Decent shape except for tape marks on spine. (NM ~$8-900)

Batman #189 x2 - 1st SA Scarecrow - one copy is really beat up, the other has slightly bent spine and rounded corners. (NM$100)

Are any of these worth grading? I'd kinda like to know how much off guide value these would be worth and I'm by no means a good grader. All I see is guide saying they are X amount of dollars. I see CGC'd books go for a lot more on Ebay also. I don't think I'll sell any of them soon, but it'd be nice to know the value better. Isn't it like ~$15 per book and takes close to 3 weeks for the grading? Do you guys feel the CGC slabs protect the comics better?

Thanks for your opinion guys!

[BodaZoffa]

I'd send everything in except the Spider-man & the Batman. When it comes to silver age comics, anything with a grade of 7.0 or over is good in my opinion.

Boda

[Ghetto D]

If you have to get something graded, I would only send the better Bats 189 and the Lantern. Neither are NM as you describe though, so don't get your hopes up. The Batman 189 is a lesser key, but the Green Lantern is one of the real gems of the Bronze Age. I don't think you're going to get much of a premium on the Batman 189, simply because the book just doesn't seem to be in demand right now. The Lantern will ALWAYS be in demand and if it grades 8.0 or higher you might have something. If the damage you speak of is VERY minor it might get up to a 9.0, in which case you'd definitly get into premium price territory.

I'd think twice about getting any graded. In all honesty it just doesn't sound like "investment grade material", which as we all know is what brings in the real multiples.

Just my two cents...

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I have a few key silver age comics that aren't in great condition and I'm curious if I should spend the money to get them CGC'd. What is everyone's opinion on CGC? I know there were a lot of comments on CCG? (I think that's the other company).

Is it worth getting a comic with tears or even tape marks graded?

For example these are the comics I'm considering getting graded:

Amazing Spiderman # 17 - 2nd Green Goblin -Spine is broken, water stains and creases on cover. Esentially a reading copy. (NM $820)

Amazing #300 x2 - 1st Venom - Decent shape, slight miscut on cover, second copy essentially a reading copy (NM $80)

Green Lantern # 76 - 1st Neal Adams - decent shape, small tear on cover (NM $250)

The Atom #1 - Decent shape except for tape marks on spine. (NM ~$8-900)

Batman #189 x2 - 1st SA Scarecrow - one copy is really beat up, the other has slightly bent spine and rounded corners. (NM$100)

Are any of these worth grading? I'd kinda like to know how much off guide value these would be worth and I'm by no means a good grader. All I see is guide saying they are X amount of dollars. I see CGC'd books go for a lot more on Ebay also. I don't think I'll sell any of them soon, but it'd be nice to know the value better. Isn't it like ~$15 per book and takes close to 3 weeks for the grading? Do you guys feel the CGC slabs protect the comics better?

Thanks for your opinion guys!

Spiderman #17 - No

Spiderman #300 - Yes, but only best copy, and ONLY if it's SHARP. Spine stress, dings, dents, bends, creases of ANY kind, NO.

Green Lantern #76 - Yes

Atom #1 - No, UNLESS the tape marks are the ONLY major flaws.

Batman #189 - No, neither.

[sandman]

Thanks for your advice guys.

On a related note, is there a good way to determine relative value? Say a guide says a NM book is $100 and I have an 8.0 CGC book. Is it 80% of guide? What is the percentage breakdown? I know the high grades are actually multiples of guide. The age of the book and relative importance is also a big factor (ie Silver age or 1st app). Is Ebay the best way to get an idea of CGC grade values?

I know CGC list the recent grades of each book, but is there a listing of recent sales (other than Ebay)?

[DawgPhan]

Thanks for your advice guys.

On a related note, is there a good way to determine relative value? Say a guide says a NM book is $100 and I have an 8.0 CGC book. Is it 80% of guide? What is the percentage breakdown? I know the high grades are actually multiples of guide. The age of the book and relative importance is also a big factor (ie Silver age or 1st app). Is Ebay the best way to get an idea of CGC grade values?

I know CGC list the recent grades of each book, but is there a listing of recent sales (other than Ebay)?

Well Lucky for you our very own birthday boy is the king of this sort of stuff...Also what "guide" are you using...I believe that the big ole OPG that should becoming out today(at least for greg's sake) list prices for other grades not just NM. Umm there is GPA which is a subscription service that will give you an analysis of a comics recent prices in a cerain grade. Also ComicLink and Heritage sell comics...check out ebay completed auctions for the books that you are looking for....about cgc...I do not think that a premium is paid for books that are below super high grade...somewhere around 9.2 people start paying multiples of guide for books...crazy money is spent on 9.6 books and better....with truly crazy money spent on sliver/golden keys in 9.8...check out the cgc analysis page that greg runs...I think that you can get to it through http://www.gregholland.com

I hope that this helps a little...oh yeah I say dont slab your books if you plan on keeping them...

[Jaknife]

where do you go or what do you do to CGC something? I have seen everyone talk about this, but I have no clue how to get it done.

[DawgPhan]

where do you go or what do you do to CGC something? I have seen everyone talk about this, but I have no clue how to get it done.

you just send them the comic that you want graded...they will keep it for a while and grade it...they they will send it back to you in a super neat plastic tomb. People become *SQUEE* around these plastic tombs since they have some sort of mind-altering substance in them. The substance can work over the internet and in person and it cause people to spend tons of money on cheap comics...Oh yeah cgc is so nice that they will offer everyone 20% off of the grading cost if you submit through certain online sites...do a http://www.google.com search for cgc...

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

where do you go or what do you do to CGC something? I have seen everyone talk about this, but I have no clue how to get it done.

www.heritagecomics.com is a good company to go through, they make it pretty simple. Also, you can submit books in person (and either pay to have them turend around while you're there, or have them sent back to you) at any of the major cons around the country.

Greg, why not contact CGC and see if you can become an official submission site, and we could all get 20% off through VC.com Or do you have to have a business license...?

[greg]

Greg, why not contact CGC and see if you can become an official submission site, and we could all get 20% off through VC.com Or do you have to have a business license...?

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of being a CGC submission site.

There's no "business" for ValiantComics.com, so I don't think
the site is ineligible to be a CGC sponsor/dealer.
https://www.cgccomics.com/services/dealerapp1.asp

(And I'm certainly not a full time comic book dealer... I never sell!)

[BodaZoffa]

Greg, why not contact CGC and see if you can become an official submission site, and we could all get 20% off through VC.com Or do you have to have a business license...?

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of being a CGC submission site.

There's no "business" for ValiantComics.com, so I don't think
the site is ineligible to be a CGC sponsor/dealer.
https://www.cgccomics.com/services/dealerapp1.asp

(And I'm certainly not a full time comic book dealer... I never sell!)

I think that's a great idea!!!!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Thanks for your advice guys.

On a related note, is there a good way to determine relative value? Say a guide says a NM book is $100 and I have an 8.0 CGC book. Is it 80% of guide? What is the percentage breakdown? I know the high grades are actually multiples of guide. The age of the book and relative importance is also a big factor (ie Silver age or 1st app). Is Ebay the best way to get an idea of CGC grade values?

I know CGC list the recent grades of each book, but is there a listing of recent sales (other than Ebay)?

Dunno if you're still around, Sand, but just in case....relative market value according to grade has changed a lot over the years. In the beginning, there was Good, Fine, and Mint, which was 1, 1.5, and 2x respectively. (ie, Action Comics #1 in Good would be $300, $450 in Fine, and $600 in Mint.)

Over the years that's changed, so that for MOST books after 1955, the spread is rougly the following:

9.8 ??
9.6 ??
9.4 125-200%
9.2 100%
9.0 75%
8.0 50%
6.0 22.5%
4.0 15%
2.0 7.5%

So, you can see, there's quite a spread between 8.0 and 9.2, so that it roughly doubles, which is correct as the current market stands.

Unfortunately, OPG (indeed, no one) recognizes the difference YET between books, and the percentages are pretty much static throughout the guide, even of books where the OPG has STATED are harder to find in higher grade listed at the same exact percentages in lower grades (see Amazing Spiderman #28.) This makes no sense....if a book is just as easy to find as surrounding issues in low grades, and all other things being equal, then it should guide the same (like coins do.) Of course, that's a LOT harder to do than just putting in 9.2 numbers and having the computer crunch them every year, so it probably won't happen for a long time, if ever.

[cinlach@aol.com]

here's my problem with the whole cgc thing.

i've been involved in the retail side of this industry for a while now and i've seen this all first hand.

cgc started as a great idea. comic grading was so subjective, no one could agree on what things graded to. i'd take a book one place and be told it was vg (very good) and then go another and get f+ (fine plus).
this was an industry wide problem. grading was solely in the eyes of the person doing the grading and was most affected not by the condition of the book but whether or not the person grading it wanted it and how little they wanted to buy it from you for.

so along comes cgc, which was basically a grading service. you sent in a book and they graded it. they were completely unattached and you were sure to get a good, solid, unbiased grade.

then everything got nuts. because now the grades weren't open to interpretation anymore, people got crazy with the high grade books. a spawn #1, booking at $7 (which you don't even want to know how many MILLION of them there are out there) was sent in and cgc'ed at 9.9.
the damn thing sold for $200 on ebay.

let me repeat that...i think it's fairly important. a seven dollar book sold for almost TWO HUNDRED in the secondary market.

why? because it was the highest graded, certified copy in existance.
never mind the fact that at least 80% of those books are in that same shape due to the fact there are still unopened boxes of them out there. and also nevermind the fact that the only reason it was the highest graded, certified copy in existance was because it was just the first one to be submitted.

my view of cgc has not changed. they are a GRADING service.
if i send in a hulk #181 to be graded and it comes back at 9.7 then i don't expect to get $7000 bucks for it. a 9.7 grade is right in the area of near mint, which means the book is only worth the near mint overstreet price...nothing more.

if i'm buying a journey into mystery #83 with the first thor appearance and i'm willing to throw out a couple of thousand bucks for a copy then i'd like to get a good, honest grade on it. but there's no way in hell i'm paying $20,000 bucks just because it's been cgc graded as a 9.9. the grade DOES NOT increase the value of the book.

it just doesn't folks.

now, if some goober is willing to pay $40 bucks for a copy of Wildcats #23 because someone sent it in and got it graded. then more power to the seller, and more power to the buyer. because the seller just bent the buyer over and raped him. but the key is whether or not the buyer enjoyed it. if they did then no harm no foul.

i think there's going to be a bunch of people buying these high grade cgc books for these outrageous prices with the expectation that they will be able to sell them in a few years and make stupid bank, but unfortunately for them i believe the books have already made stupid money, but not for the new owner...the previous owner is the one making out like a bandit.

the current cgc craze is proof positive that the "speculator boom" that nearly destroyed our industry in the 90's is, unfortunately, alive and well.

getting things cgc'ed is fine folks...just don't let the pretty package and the high grade number distract you from the fact that the book is STILL only worth what it's worth. despite how pretty and cool the packaging is it does not warrant the extra 200% mark up.

just my two cents...sorry for the long post, but after 5 years in retail during the 90's and watching guys buy 10 issues of tribe #1 with the thought of sending their kids thru college this kinda still gets me all worked up.

[greg]

You've got to blame coins...

Companies have been professionally grading coins for a LONG time,
and you most definitely will see two IDENTICAL coins sell for very
different prices because one of them is MS68 and the other is MS69.

It's all about liquidity.

Even though a comic was a 9.9 before it was CGC graded,
it wasn't a LIQUID 9.9 that everyone could recognize according
to some standard. It was just another ungraded comic book.
When it becomes a true CGC 9.9, it's now liquid for transactions,
and the madness can start.

It's tunnel vision to blame CGC because the coin world started this insanity.

[whetteon]

Preaching to the choir. I have ZERO cgc books and I'm now proud of that fact I'm just waiting for the market to crash so I can hoard Silver Age collections for dirt cheap and keep them in my closet forever! MUAHAHAHAHA! My precious, my precious...

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

here's my problem with the whole cgc thing.

i've been involved in the retail side of this industry for a while now and i've seen this all first hand.

cgc started as a great idea. comic grading was so subjective, no one could agree on what things graded to. i'd take a book one place and be told it was vg (very good) and then go another and get f+ (fine plus).
this was an industry wide problem. grading was solely in the eyes of the person doing the grading and was most affected not by the condition of the book but whether or not the person grading it wanted it and how little they wanted to buy it from you for.

This is not because people COULDN'T grade....it's because there's an endemic lack of honesty in this industry. Comic grading IS subjective..to a point. But, it's been fine tuned so much over the last decade, especially with the advent of the Overstreet Grading Guide in '92, that the amount of subjectivity is vastly reduced, IF you're being honest. Comic grading is FARRRR less subjective by now than everyone wants to claim.

You can't, for example, HONESTLY take a comic that has a 3/4" color breaking crease and call it 'NM+', and be HONEST. Likewise, you cannot take a book with 1/4 of its entire mass GONE in fire and water (which I have received, by the way) and call it 'VG+'. The fact that people DO doesn't change things; they're being dishonest (or they just don't know what they're doing.) But the truth is, we as a 'hobby' have come to a pretty defined set of rules about what constitutes particular grades, and we've all pretty much agreed to them, because they MAKE SENSE.

I have said, for years and years and years, and have been proven correct time and time again, that two people (or ten, or 100, or 10,000) who are honestly evaluating the grade of a comic will, with a bit of training and experience, come within a half grade OR LESS.

It ALL depends on honesty. Honesty, of course, is a virtue that is in EXTRAORDINARILY short supply with the people who sell comics (for whatever reasons that exist.)

so along comes cgc, which was basically a grading service. you sent in a book and they graded it. they were completely unattached and you were sure to get a good, solid, unbiased grade.

then everything got nuts. because now the grades weren't open to interpretation anymore, people got crazy with the high grade books. a spawn #1, booking at $7 (which you don't even want to know how many MILLION of them there are out there) was sent in and cgc'ed at 9.9.
the damn thing sold for $200 on ebay.

let me repeat that...i think it's fairly important. a seven dollar book sold for almost TWO HUNDRED in the secondary market.

This is where you're incorrect. It was a $7 book BEFORE it went to CGC...it came back a $200 book. Nothing changed except that it got the industry's official seal of approval regarding its grade. It is not now, nor will it likely ever be again, a $7, short of removing the book from the case. This is because there are lots and lots and lots of people willing to pay more than $7 (including myself.)

And that's how the commodities market works. Someone wants something...they're willing to pay a price for it, based on whatever factors are involved in determining that price....and that is now what the commodity is worth.

And Spawn #1 had a print run of 1.7 Million copies....it's been printed in Wizard, and I believe the old OPG Update.

Is it only worth $7 to YOU? Sure. Is it worth, say, $25 to me? Sure. But YOU and I, and thousands of other individuals do NOT determine what the MARKET does...the MARKET is made up of the entire community of people who spend their money in it, and VERY, VERY few people have EVER been able to affect a market, up OR down...ANY market...individually. It's the MARKET which has determined that this book is worth $200 right now, and the MARKET will determine when it's worth more...or less....not you or me or any other individual.

why? because it was the highest graded, certified copy in existance.
never mind the fact that at least 80% of those books are in that same shape due to the fact there are still unopened boxes of them out there.

This is not true. If you look at the census, you will see that, out of tens of thousands of books submitted in a little over 4 years, a tiny fraction have received grades of 9.9 or 10.0. SURELY all the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who submitted books examined these books extremely closely before sending them in.

The answer is simple: perfect books are absurdly rare, even when brand spankin' new, due to the nature of the material involved. They will always be rare, regardless of the quality control involved, unless they start to be made out of a far more durable material (say, a tungsten-palladium alloy.)

If I had to make a guess, I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of .01-.05% of ALL extant copies of Spawn #1 are in 9.9 or better condition, certified or not. Hey..that's still 170-850 copies. Not bad, considering there are likely 5-10 of any given book printed from 1980-up in those conditions.

and also nevermind the fact that the only reason it was the highest graded, certified copy in existance was because it was just the first one to be submitted.

This IS true, and if more copies surface in like or better condition, the market value of THAT one will see a decrease relative to all the copies in those conditions.

my view of cgc has not changed. they are a GRADING service.
if i send in a hulk #181 to be graded and it comes back at 9.7 then i don't expect to get $7000 bucks for it. a 9.7 grade is right in the area of near mint, which means the book is only worth the near mint overstreet price...nothing more.

Again, you're confusing GUIDE value with MARKET value. You can, and SHOULD, expect $7,000 for a 9.7 (which doesn't exist, by the way...yet) because THAT is what the current market will bear. If you expect to get NM OPG (currently $1250 in 9.2) then you set a VASTLY unreasonable expectation for the book...it's just in this case, your expectation was unreasonably LOW.

But, hey....if you have a 9.6 Hulk #181, by all means, I'll fly to you, hand you $1250 in cash, and fly back out. No muss, no fuss.

if i'm buying a journey into mystery #83 with the first thor appearance and i'm willing to throw out a couple of thousand bucks for a copy then i'd like to get a good, honest grade on it. but there's no way in hell i'm paying $20,000 bucks just because it's been cgc graded as a 9.9. the grade DOES NOT increase the value of the book.

it just doesn't folks.

This is absolutely, unequivocally, without a doubt 100% wrong. Not only is it 100% wrong, but it flies in the face of centuries of collecting, and decades of comic collecting. It is human nature to want the 'best' possible condition of ANYTHING you buy. Therefore, grade is the single most important factor in determining the value of any given book. Grade ABSOLUTELY increases the value of EVERY book.

It just does.

Now, if you're speaking of INTRINSIC value, then no, a book is a book is a book, and is judged on its artistic merit. However, we're talking about market value, and grade is everything when determining THAT value.

I'm really surprised you said this, to be honest.

And for the record....a 9.9 JIM #83 isn't $20,000...it's likely a $150,000-$250,000 book.

now, if some goober is willing to pay $40 bucks for a copy of Wildcats #23 because someone sent it in and got it graded. then more power to the seller, and more power to the buyer. because the seller just bent the buyer over and raped him. but the key is whether or not the buyer enjoyed it. if they did then no harm no foul.

To you, it's rape. To the buyer, since no one forced him/her to buy it, it's likely a happy thing. Everyone has their own perspective on what value they find in a thing.

i think there's going to be a bunch of people buying these high grade cgc books for these outrageous prices with the expectation that they will be able to sell them in a few years and make stupid bank, but unfortunately for them i believe the books have already made stupid money, but not for the new owner...the previous owner is the one making out like a bandit.

I think you're right here....but I only say 'perhaps'. We'll see. Obviously, that 9.6 Spiderman #1 is NOT going lower than $107K for the foreseeable future, barring some catastrophe. But, consider this...the graded coin market exploded in 1986.....by 1989, it was all over. It was a bloodbath.

CGC, however, has now been around for over 4 years, and there are NO indications that the market is heading south.

the current cgc craze is proof positive that the "speculator boom" that nearly destroyed our industry in the 90's is, unfortunately, alive and well.

This is not true, for a very specific reason: quantity vs. quality. The speculator boom of the early 90's was due ENTIRELY to everyone and their mother's brother's dog's cousin's aunt buying multiple copies of EVERYTHING printed, thinking it would make them a fortune.

Obviously, supply far overshadowed demand, and it crashed...it was BOUND to happen.

NOW, however, it's all about QUALITY...and I guarantee you, there's not going to be multiples of Spiderman #1 in 9.6 turning up.

And that...is a HUGE...HUGE...difference.

getting things cgc'ed is fine folks...just don't let the pretty package and the high grade number distract you from the fact that the book is STILL only worth what it's worth. despite how pretty and cool the packaging is it does not warrant the extra 200% mark up.

Again, perhaps not to YOU. Perhaps not to ME. But it's that pesky market again, determining the REAL value of any item. And no matter how you wish to convince people otherwise, you're never going to get EVERYONE to believe that a CGC 9.9 book is 'worth' the same as an identical book, in identical grade, that's not slabbed. It's just not going to happen.

just my two cents...sorry for the long post, but after 5 years in retail during the 90's and watching guys buy 10 issues of tribe #1 with the thought of sending their kids thru college this kinda still gets me all worked up.

If you made them understand that past performance does not guarantee future results, and then told them that (A) tribe sucked; and (B) it hd a ridiculously high print run, then YOU did everything in YOUR power to dissuade these guys...and if they THEN chose to purchase them anyways, how's that bad for you....? YOU did everything you could, even going above and beyond the call!

On the other hand, if you sat idly by and watched the cash register ring, and did nothing to even ATTEMPT to persuade these folks that they were making, in your opinion, a mistake....

...then you're just as guilty as they are.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

You've got to blame coins...

Companies have been professionally grading coins for a LONG time,
and you most definitely will see two IDENTICAL coins sell for very
different prices because one of them is MS68 and the other is MS69.

<smirk>..it's microscopic....an MS68 will allow a TINY hairline mark that's visible to the naked eye...a 69 can only have marks that are visible under a 5x loop or greater.

And CGC's got a lot of experience in the grading biz....after all, they were the second one out of the gate in '86 with NGC. They've been doing it longer than anyone but PCGS.

[cinlach@aol.com]

sorry. i absolutely do not agree.

now that doesn't mean i think you're a bad person who likes to kick puppies or pick the wings off flies, but we just have differing opinions on what the value of these things are.

if 9.9 equates to "mint" and a cgc'ed copy of spawn #1 goes for $200 then why aren't any of the guide prices adjusted to reflect that. spawn #1 in mint condition in wizard or overstreet should list at $200.
so in truth, the ONLY difference between the mint, un-cgc'ed book worth $7 and the 9.9 $200 version is simply the package. despite how pretty the package is, i'm not spending the extra $193 because it's in the nifty plastic holder.

and what exactly keeps someone from taking a bunch of books directly frm the new release rack and getting them cgc'ed, sticking them on ebay and selling them for an absolutely outrageous price like happened with ultimate ff #1. there's no way anyone can ever make me believe that a 5 month old book should be worth over $200...i think ultimate ff #1 sold for $215.00 +/-.

now i totally understand we're talking about an auction here. and that fanboys will ultimately pay whatever they have to in order to secure a copy of the item they want and that's fine. what i have a problem with is attaching a "guide" value to something that so obviously out of line with reality.

i mean seriously, when astonishing x-men #1 (joss whedon issue) ends up on ebay cgc'ed as 9.8 or 9.9 it will sell for stupid, stupid money. there's absolutely, positively no way that book will be worth the money spent on it. that's the difference between the guide price and the "fanboy effect".

now i also know that greg bases his price guide off of the ebay sales and i believe that for the most part those prices are solid. because in my opinion the valiant books are drastically undervalued in overstreet and all but ignored in wizard. so in that case i don't have a problem letting the auction market set the "standard" on price value.

i have a good friend i work with that has golden age shadow comics that are in ridiculously awesome shape that he's currently running thru cgc.
i don't even want to know what a 1940's shadow #1 cgc'ed at 6.0 or above will command on the ebay market.

the bottom line is this, these things are really only worth what someone will pay for them...i know i'm idealistic and i think that everything should be black and white. but i cannot help but giggle when i see some of the crazy things going on with cgc right now.

i can see someone looking for a high grade copy of something paying a little more for it because it has been cgc'ed...i mean hell, the process they put things thru costs around $30. so i can see that price being absorbed in the new price and a little more for the fact that it is without question graded correctly. i just think people are getting nuts on this.

it's dangerous to let the fanboy market set the price standard on anything because in my opinion that price standard would be higher then normal. why? because they're fanboys who will basically spend whatever they need to in order to buy what they want.

comic people are a cooky bunch. no doubt.

[sandman]

Thanks for the comments Zeph. I didn't CGC any of my books when I went to the Motor City Con. I don't really have any that are high grade enough to be worth it and I frankly don't think I'll sell any time soon. I just didn't think it was worth it.

I did end up buying one CGC book when I was there, but it was simply because I could only find 2 copies of the book and the non-CGC was alot more expensive. I plan to open the CGC book and read it. btw it was Miracleman #15. I found a 9.4 for around guide ($100) and someone else had a non-graded for close to $75 more. I didn't feel I was paying for the CGC in this instance.

[whetteon]

the current cgc craze is proof positive that the "speculator boom" that nearly destroyed our industry in the 90's is, unfortunately, alive and well.

This is not true, for a very specific reason: quantity vs. quality. The speculator boom of the early 90's was due ENTIRELY to everyone and their mother's brother's dog's cousin's aunt buying multiple copies of EVERYTHING printed, thinking it would make them a fortune.

Obviously, supply far overshadowed demand, and it crashed...it was BOUND to happen.

NOW, however, it's all about QUALITY...and I guarantee you, there's not going to be multiples of Spiderman #1 in 9.6 turning up.

And that...is a HUGE...HUGE...difference.

Yet supply is just about to overshadowed demand again with Wizard offering 10's to any fanboy willing to pay. So much for "QUALITY".

[greg]

Yet supply is just about to overshadowed demand again with Wizard offering 10's to any fanboy willing to pay. So much for "QUALITY".

Not exactly.

Wizard hasn't received a single 10.0 yet in their "Wizard First" program,
and even if they do, it won't be on a back issue book...
the program is only for books that were printed today or in the future.
They can't sell what they don't have.

[DawgPhan]

Yet supply is just about to overshadowed demand again with Wizard offering 10's to any fanboy willing to pay. So much for "QUALITY".

Not exactly.

Wizard hasn't received a single 10.0 yet in their "Wizard First" program,
and even if they do, it won't be on a back issue book...
the program is only for books that were printed today or in the future.
They can't sell what they don't have.

Do you have any idea about how this is actually working? is wizard going to the printer's and getting a couple cases of comics....maybe 2000 books and then sending them to cgc? then let cgc run some sort of pre-screen on them..I wonder how many books cgc has graded for them...how do you know that they dont have any 10.0s yet? I mean even if they maintain their 1 per 1000 ratio you would think that wizard would be able to get a couple...

[greg]

On the CGC Message Boards, they've discussed the "Wizard First" program
at GREAT length...

"Wizard First" means that the books are taken by Wizard
directly from the printers to CGC, and they are graded with "Wizard First" labels.

The grades are:
Wizard First 10.0, which is the same as CGC 10.0
Wizard First 9.5, which is the same as somewhere between CGC 9.2 and 9.9
Wizard First 9.0, which is the same as CGC 9.0

Eventually, CGC will probably award some Wizard First 10.0 grades,
but the word was that the first two books in the Wizard First program
didn't receive any 10.0 grades.

It looks like Wizard is offering 10.0's to anyone who wants one,
but in reality Wizard may just be accepting orders for those 10.0 books,
and when there aren't any... they just cancel the order and say "out of stock".

As far as WHY would Wizard use 9.5...
I believe it makes grading easier and quicker.

CGC can QUICKLY say... "this book isn't perfect... so it's not a 10.0",
and they can QUICKLY say... "this book is easily better than 9.0",
so they just slap the 9.5 on the label and move onto the next book.

[Steve Topper]

Sandman,

Before you crack open your CGC case for Miracleman 15 -- I have the book scanned and can provide you with an electronic version to read -- gratis! No charge! That way, you can effectively keep your investment and still the book.

Either PM me or email me and I can get you the scanned version.

Steve

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

if 9.9 equates to "mint" and a cgc'ed copy of spawn #1 goes for $200 then why aren't any of the guide prices adjusted to reflect that. spawn #1 in mint condition in wizard or overstreet should list at $200.

Very simple: there isn't a price guide WITH THE EXCEPTION of the small CGC section Wizard runs in the back, which DOES, in fact, reflect those high prices. And...just to be sure, the top price in the OPG is now 9.2, and Wizard is 9.4. Big difference from 9.9.

I'll also point out that every guide has historically been wrong, and wrong by a LOT, when it comes to true market value.

I'll also point out that the big two, OPG and Wizard, have LED the prices, not reflected them. This is wrong, both on an economic and ethical standpoint, but it's happened anyways.

so in truth, the ONLY difference between the mint, un-cgc'ed book worth $7 and the 9.9 $200 version is simply the package. despite how pretty the package is, i'm not spending the extra $193 because it's in the nifty plastic holder.

You not only get the nifty holder, but ASSURANCE. You're BUYING assurance that the book is, according to the community, fairly and accurately graded, and that MOST other people will accept it as such. And, as such, you're buying an intangible that means just as much as the tangible.

and what exactly keeps someone from taking a bunch of books directly frm the new release rack and getting them cgc'ed, sticking them on ebay and selling them for an absolutely outrageous price like happened with ultimate ff #1. there's no way anyone can ever make me believe that a 5 month old book should be worth over $200...i think ultimate ff #1 sold for $215.00 +/-.

I AGREE with you. HOWEVER...the MARKET does NOT. I ALSO don't think a Hulk #181 in 9.8 is worth $20,000...HOWEVER, the MARKET DOES, and that market is what determines the value of anything, as it should be.

And....again.....very important...no one is FORCING anyone to BUY these books for these prices...the buyers WILLINGLY pay this much, and, so long as they do, these prices are LEGITIMATE, as far as the market goes.

now i totally understand we're talking about an auction here. and that fanboys will ultimately pay whatever they have to in order to secure a copy of the item they want and that's fine. what i have a problem with is attaching a "guide" value to something that so obviously out of line with reality.

Then, where's the hue and cry over attaching a 'guide' value to everything ELSE that's so obviously out of line with reality? New Mutants #87 had a GUIDE value of $65 until 1996...the last time it likely SOLD for that much was 1993!

Albedo #2 had a GUIDE value of $14 last year, while it was selling for $1700 in CGC 9.4.

Miracleman #15 had a GUIDE value of $4, when it was selling, FOR YEARS, on eBay for $40-$60!

Chaos Effect Alpha Red has a GUIDE value of $3...and ROUTINELY sells for over $50, as it has for YEARS now.

Unity #0 Red, SAME THING.

Nearly EVERY common silver and later book sells for half guide or LESS, EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of EVERY SINGLE DAY, on eBay.

What about those? What about those that are so obviously out of line with reality....?

It's the NATURE of the BEAST, and until someone stands up and says 'hey....we're TIRED of your baloney, OPG and Wizard, and we're publishing our own REAL guide', nothing will change.

i mean seriously, when astonishing x-men #1 (joss whedon issue) ends up on ebay cgc'ed as 9.8 or 9.9 it will sell for stupid, stupid money. there's absolutely, positively no way that book will be worth the money spent on it. that's the difference between the guide price and the "fanboy effect".

Again: stupid money to you is money well spent to someone else. Anything, tangible or intangible, is worth (ACTUAL VALUE) whatever the LAST person to buy it paid for it. That's Econ 101.

the bottom line is this, these things are really only worth what someone will pay for them...i know i'm idealistic and i think that everything should be black and white. but i cannot help but giggle when i see some of the crazy things going on with cgc right now.

Of course! ENJOY it! It's pretty amazing...and, if you can, BENEFIT YOURSELF from it. That's the beauty of online selling.....you can NEVER feel like you ripped somebody off, because they paid what THEY were willing to pay!

it's dangerous to let the fanboy market set the price standard on anything because in my opinion that price standard would be higher then normal. why? because they're fanboys who will basically spend whatever they need to in order to buy what they want.

comic people are a cooky bunch. no doubt.

AGAIN...'normal' is whatever the market will bear, always and forever. That's the way it works. It's not only NOT dangerous...it's healthy....and trying to impose restrictions on that is what is, ultimately, dangerous. Or has the former Soviet Union taught us nothing....?