Worst Cases of Keith Giffening?

[jcdenton]

Other than Magnus, what would you say are the worst cases of a new writer taking over a series, and not only taking the series straight to hell, but doing so in a manner that ruins the series beyond any possible repair (other than a complete reboot?)

My #1 all time: Star Brand

Star Brand is easily the closest thing to pre-Unity Solar I've found--understandably so, since it's basically the same concept (set in the "real world", a regular guy acquires godlike powers and struggles with what he should do with them) and same writer (at least for the first 7 issues).

By the end of Shooter's run, he had firmly established a great character, an intriguing plot involving the alien being who gave him his abilities and a foreign government trying to learn his true identity, and a superb love triangle between the hero, his girlfriend, and the pathetically-psycho-yet-incredibly-likeable Debbie Fix (named, BTW, after the real life Valiant Production Manager) who might possibly be my favorite non-powered female comic character of all time.

Anyway after Shooter got canned, some writer I can't recall took over for a few issues, which were different but still pretty decent, then John Byrne took over, had an issue or two that were actually VERY good, then the entire series drastically and irrevocably went into the proverbial gutter.

In a span of just a few issues (spoilers) all of the human characters were killed (including Debbie Fix in the most anticlimactic death of a major character I've ever seen), Jim Shooter's home town is wiped off the face of the earth, the main character transforms into a complete *SQUEE*, and finally, the main character is killed. The End. Actually, it wasn't the end, since there were a few more issues before the series got canned, but I have no interest in seeing what happened in those final issues, since it might as well have been a different book entirely.

[Todd Luck]

That's a good question.

I'ld say Bedard's run on Rai and Magnus ruined them both for me. Atleast their was a chance to return Earth to a the state that it was in in the Manning/Shooter era when Orstrander was at the helm but Bedard's run sort of killed the possibility.

Dan Jurgen's New Wold Order story on Solar did more damage to that character than I can imagine anyone could repair, though I don't have the issues after that....

I would say the collectively plotted Emerald Twilight killed every single thing I found interesting about Green Lantern, but nothing's ever dead in the DCU apparently. I haven't read "Rebirth". I've heard good things but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fun adventures of a former mass muderer.

[X-O HoboJoe]

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fun adventures of a former mass muderer.

Have you tried Emerald Dahmer?

Dude gets a green radioactive broomstick shoved up his *SQUEE* and gets super hungry.

[The Spider]

Other than Magnus, what would you say are the worst cases of a new writer taking over a series, and not only taking the series straight to hell, but doing so in a manner that ruins the series beyond any possible repair (other than a complete reboot?)

My #1 all time: Star Brand

Star Brand is easily the closest thing to pre-Unity Solar I've found--understandably so, since it's basically the same concept (set in the "real world", a regular guy acquires godlike powers and struggles with what he should do with them) and same writer (at least for the first 7 issues).

By the end of Shooter's run, he had firmly established a great character, an intriguing plot involving a foreign government trying to learn his true identity, and a superb love triangle between the hero, his girlfriend, and the pathetically-psycho-yet-incredibly-likeable Debbie Fix (named, BTW, after the real life Valiant Production Manager) who might possibly be my favorite non-powered female comic character of all time.

Anyway after Shooter got canned, some writer I can't recall took over for a few issues, which were different but still pretty decent, then John Byrne took over, had an issue or two that were actually VERY good, then the entire series drastically and irrevocably went into the proverbial gutter.

In a span of just a few issues (spoilers) all of the human characters were killed (including Debbie Fix in the most anticlimactic death of a major character I've ever seen), Jim Shooter's home town is wiped off the face of the earth, the main character transforms into a complete *SQUEE*, and finally, the main character is killed. The End. Actually, it wasn't the end, since there were a few more issues before the series got canned, but I have no interest in seeing what happened in those final issues, since it might as well have been a different book entirely.

I read the entire Byrne run, and while I can't remember all the names at the moment and the internet's running a little slow for me, here's a rundown of what you missed.

SPOILERS, YO:

Ok, so Ken "dies." Then Ken and Debbie's kid, being a sentient superkid and all that, is trying to figure out why things are, can he change it, etc. So he gives that one bearded guy (Remember him? He and his wife helped Debbie while she was pregnant and all) the power of the Star Brand and makes him a muscular superhero and stuff. Later on StarKid decides to eliminate death from the world. Nothing can die. Not humans, not animals, not cellular lifeforms.

Even though Ken died in a horrible accident, he could turn into a weird alien thing and then get healed back to normal. However, since the StarKid eliminated death, Ken roamed around as a mutilated corpse acting like a messiah and trying to recruit others in a derelict church.

Eventually, Bearded Guy and his wife convinces StarKid that getting rid of death is not a good idea. So StarKid restores Bearded Guy back to normal, and resumes life-and-death cycle. Meanwhile, Ken turns into that weird alien form, gets healed, and walks around screaming that he'll be back or something.

Then StarKid goes and finds someone else to give the StarBrand to. He finds this Friendly Grandpa Guy, who uses the Star Brand to heal his ailing grandson. Then Friendly Grandpa Guy tries to restore Pittsburgh but finds it's not possible. Later on, Friendly Grandpa Guy learns that the parnormal President is evil and takes away his powers.

In the final issue, Bearded Guy and Friendly Grandpa Guy find out that The Old Man (who gave Ken Connell the Star Brand in the beginning), Ken Connell, and StarKid (who's been aging), are actually THE SAME PERSON. StarKid says that to complete the cycle or whatever that he has to go back to become Ken Connell in the 80's, and Ken has to go back to 17th (or whatever) century Holland to become the Dutch Count who becomes The Old Man. The Old Man? I don't think they said what home he'd be rolling to. I guess they all ended up become one being or something but it's been a while since I read it.

[Vault-Keeper]

The Spider-Man Clone Saga. 'Nuff Said.

[CJAotssE]

Marvel's recent Warlock and Iron Fist minis were pretty dire ( or was that too kind? )

Peter.

[jcdenton]

Thanks for the recap Spider. Most of that sounds about as bad as I expected, although some of it sounds like it might actually be interesting. Maybe I'll get those final issues someday if I see them for cheap.

[CommanderMarvel]

Other than Magnus, what would you say are the worst cases of a new writer taking over a series, and not only taking the series straight to hell, but doing so in a manner that ruins the series beyond any possible repair (other than a complete reboot?)

My #1 all time: Star Brand

Star Brand is easily the closest thing to pre-Unity Solar I've found--understandably so, since it's basically the same concept (set in the "real world", a regular guy acquires godlike powers and struggles with what he should do with them) and same writer (at least for the first 7 issues).

By the end of Shooter's run, he had firmly established a great character, an intriguing plot involving the alien being who gave him his abilities and a foreign government trying to learn his true identity, and a superb love triangle between the hero, his girlfriend, and the pathetically-psycho-yet-incredibly-likeable Debbie Fix (named, BTW, after the real life Valiant Production Manager) who might possibly be my favorite non-powered female comic character of all time.

Anyway after Shooter got canned, some writer I can't recall took over for a few issues, which were different but still pretty decent, then John Byrne took over, had an issue or two that were actually VERY good, then the entire series drastically and irrevocably went into the proverbial gutter.

In a span of just a few issues (spoilers) all of the human characters were killed (including Debbie Fix in the most anticlimactic death of a major character I've ever seen), Jim Shooter's home town is wiped off the face of the earth, the main character transforms into a complete *SKREE*, and finally, the main character is killed. The End. Actually, it wasn't the end, since there were a few more issues before the series got canned, but I have no interest in seeing what happened in those final issues, since it might as well have been a different book entirely.

I strongly agree. Though I've often liked John Byrne's work, he destroyed Starbrand. In his first issue, he first took every main character and completely changed their personalities. Myron, a self-serving guy who used his friends suddenly became a mature adult who accused others of being users. Not to mention that history was rewritten and Myron was telling Ken Connell to do the exact opposite of what Myron had said in previous issues. Likewise, Ken Connell, previously a smart guy who seemed to have a strong grasp of science and to understand the dangers of his powers to others suddenly becomes an undercautious moron in order to force an event to occur.

Byrne doesn't continue the story. He literally obliterates the real story about real people and their interactions and how they cope with powers in the real world, obliterates it in favor of turning it into an "epic" of grandiose events and making it into just another superhero universe as fast as he can.

As far as I'm concerned, the story of Starbrand, the one Jim Shooter wrote or served as editor in chief of, ended with issue 9 and the annual. There were a couple of decent stories written by, I believe, Carey Bates after Shooter was fired. Then Byrne came in and simply ended the story in favor of his story of big explosions and grandiose epic.

I guess I can't completely blame him though. The New Universe was fading away. Something had to be done to get the attention of comic readers who basically wanted superhero vs. supervillain fights and standard comic book fare. Even then it was too late as too few were reading the New Universe.

I think the problem was the very medium. The Wild Cards novels did much the same thing as the New Universe, showed what might happen if super powers existed in the real world. Wild Cards was quite succesful. But novels are a different medium than comics, which are very visual and, I think, where the realistic character interaction of the New Universe was just progressing too slowly and too realistically for many readers.

I personally think that, although there were some losers in the New Universe, many of them, like DP 7, Psi Force and Starbrand were so realistic at times that I had a hard time reading the regular Marvel Universe because it felt so unrealistic compared to the New Universe. Much of that was because the New Universe refused to have the standard assumptions of comic books, such as people not recognizing you just because you put on a mask or getting powers and having a sudden urge to fight crime. But mostly because the people tended to be so real.

[Heath]

The worst case of this, IMO, was what Ron Marz did with XO. Personally, I think that was what assured Valiant's death.

[Cliffy]

I remember thinking that the reboot of Magnus that took place years later was bad (was that Bedard's run?). It's been a long time since I read it, but doesn't Magnus completely revert to a remorseless robotkiller after previous issues showed him that robots were people too?

I thought Byrne's Star Barnd was OK, although it had little to do with the better Shooter stuff that came before. Causing The Pitt is well within Connell's character, IMO -- his being both selfish and scared about the Star Brand's power were well-delineated in the early issues.

I also think everyone gets Byrne backwards about Debbie Duck -- I don't think Byrne changed her name because he wanted to erase Shooter's pals from the book. I think he did it because he wanted to kill the character in order to amp up the drama, and so he made Debbie Duck as different as he could from the real Debbie Fix as possible in the short time he had so that it would not seem that he was pursuing a vendetta against her, or Shooter.

--Cliffy