X-O Manowar #5

[BugsySig]

While I can understand, and agree with the argument that variants are needed, and a necessary "evil" in todays comic book market, I don't know if I agree with reading the conclusion that EVERY issue coming out needs to have at least one variant, and in many cases multiple variants. One line wide variant per month, or two 1:10 or 1:20 variants per month - sure. More variant issues coming out than regular issues...not so sure.

Chris

Chris, I think (i have no specific knowledge) that Valiant will keep the 1:20s for a few more issues of ea. book. One it gets to issue 6,7,8 and so on, the novelty and the benefit of these variants will subside. The more difficult variants are and should be reserved for "special" issues like XO #5. That's a valid strategy. If those incentives make retailers order more books of that issue, those retailers will have another push at promoting valiant books, because they are "free" to them if they sell the variants. Any retailer who is smart will promote books that cost them nothing. It's pure mark up, why wouldn't they.

Is it safe to say if the Ninjak appearance was in, say, XO #10...a few months past the debut issues and the initial launch variants...that we would not be seeing as much backlash against the Variants?

I think so.

It is hitting the completionists wallet hard right now, but a few months of only 1 cover, and most wouldn't complain about dropping a few duckets for these "special issue" variants.

[grendeljd]

My point about the way the variants keep stores from going sub-only by covering part of the cost of additional copies, and thus leading to potential new customers, is 100% valid. By saying "I am tired of these *SQUEE* variants, no more" you are influencing someone else to do the same where they would still continue getting those variants and giving a store a reason to order more.

I am not against negative feedback. It's healthy to have discourse. But this one has been beat to death and I promise you, affecting things in a negative fashion, with orders by retailers affected. If people on this site are true fans, as I am (it's tough to separate a retailer and a fan, but it's true, my big goal here is to have Valiant doing better and better) they should realize that they are hurting their favorite brand by consistently being negative about one very small aspect of their publishing plan.

I see the same 3-4 people consistently pouring on, and that I DO consider a rant.

I'm in agreement with Paradise on the validity of variants from the retailer perspective, and thus the health of the publisher. I can see it is a system designed to promote growth that depends on an intelligent retailer to take time to promote the books once they've got those extra copies sitting on his/her shelves. It's a fun aspect of the hobby for those customers that are into it, but it's also just that - an aspect. The real reason we are all here is that we love the medium of comics, and what Valiant is putting out in particular.

I think the variant marketing concept only falls flat for a select branch of collectors - the completionists. That is probably where the majority of any negativity is coming from, for obvious reasons. I am not in that camp, personally - I get the ones I really like or can afford, and only lightly lament the odd cool one that I can't afford or miss out on due to smaller local ordering.

The real question becomes this (and I sincerely mean no offense here); how much attention do you pay to a niche branch, where perhaps as Paradise suggests, it's only 3 or 4 people consistently being negative? Does that merit concern for the publisher? Ideally every customer is valued of course, especially in the initial stages of starting up, but realistically you can't please everyone all the time...

For what it's worth, I'm not going to let anything to do with the variant debate affect my support for what, so far, has been a top notch line of books with the promise of much more goodness to come.

And I also think its cool that they are doing a Gold #1 X-O - both to celebrate the fact it exceeded expectations and as a nod to Valiant tradition.

[400yrs]

So is the Gold #1 or #5? The information I'm seeing states #1, but the solicit is for #5.

[Aram]

I'll try to keep this simple and classy.

I am disappointed with the excess of ongoing Variants.

It does not bode well with me, even if done for something exciting. With these things not being announced in advance or promoted very far in advance, they seem to me to me last minute decisions and really make me question how many voices are steering the ship at VEI and how many decisions might be made to take advantage of some extra $$.

Shooters' outing. Acclaim. In my opinion the two worst things that ever happened to Valiant.

I just hope that Variants and Cash Cow wont be the next two.

Don't ride the cash cow. Goat yes.

Oh and speaking of recent cash cows... anyone know how many Variants Saga has? I can't seem to find any?

[paradise]

So is the Gold #1 or #5? The information I'm seeing states #1, but the solicit is for #5.

GOLD XO #1 is the incentive for X-O #5 but it's line-wide.

[400yrs]

Oh and speaking of recent cash cows... anyone know how many Variants Saga has? I can't seem to find any?

One. It's the C2E2 retailer summit variant and it's crazy expensive. It wasn't a 1:20, 1:50, 1:x chase variants. It was a gift for the retailers at the retailer summit.

[400yrs]

So is the Gold #1 or #5? The information I'm seeing states #1, but the solicit is for #5.

GOLD XO #1 is the incentive for X-O #5 but it's line-wide.

Have the cover images been made available for all the covers? Which one is the one with the sword through the X-O helmet?

[Aram]

Oh and speaking of recent cash cows... anyone know how many Variants Saga has? I can't seem to find any?

One. It's the C2E2 retailer summit variant and it's crazy expensive. It wasn't a 1:20, 1:50, 1:x chase variants. It was a gift for the retailers at the retailer summit.

hmm.. that's weird. I wonder how they ever got up to selling out 5 printings without needing any variants...? OH! I know! It's Vincent on the cover! When'd he mutate into a humanoid and start starring in a Image comic? Oh the depths some goats will sink to for a buck!

[400yrs]

Oh and speaking of recent cash cows... anyone know how many Variants Saga has? I can't seem to find any?

One. It's the C2E2 retailer summit variant and it's crazy expensive. It wasn't a 1:20, 1:50, 1:x chase variants. It was a gift for the retailers at the retailer summit.

hmm.. that's weird. I wonder how they ever got up to selling out 5 printings without needing any variants...? OH! I know! It's Vincent on the cover! When'd he mutate into a humanoid and start starring in a Image comic? Oh the depths some goats will sink to for a buck!

Image is a completely different business model. While BKV can sell 40K copies of Saga monthly and make tons of money for himself and Fiona Staples, Valiant isn't doing that well if they only sell 40K units of all their books in one month. Hence the variants.

[paradise]

I'll try to keep this simple and classy.

I am disappointed with the excess of ongoing Variants.

It does not bode well with me, even if done for something exciting. With these things not being announced in advance or promoted very far in advance, they seem to me to me last minute decisions and really make me question how many voices are steering the ship at VEI and how many decisions might be made to take advantage of some extra $$.

Shooters' outing. Acclaim. In my opinion the two worst things that ever happened to Valiant.

I just hope that Variants and Cash Cow wont be the next two.

Don't ride the cash cow. Goat yes.

Oh and speaking of recent cash cows... anyone know how many Variants Saga has? I can't seem to find any?

Having seen some of the future plans and some of the covers that are coming out, I have to tell you, you have NO IDEA what's going on. You call what Dinesh and company have been working on for at least 3-4 years, last minute decisions and compare it to Acclaim? REALLY? This is the type of negative crap that is based on nothing specific just to be negative that I have been talking about.

Oh, SAGA had the biggest "variant" of all, his name is Brian K. Vaughan. When you have Brian K Vaughan as the writer, with backing of Image Comics, in the front of the catalog, promoted by a Previews Cover and in every Image book, you don't need variants. It's absolutely NUTZ to compare SAGA to what Valiant is doing, starting a new publisher that is remembered by members of this site + maybe another 1,000 people. He wrote for LOST, he sold millions of copies of Y, The Last Man, Ex-Machina, created Runaways for Marvel.

That is the #1 reason why Valiant DOES NEED variants, because they are going up against Brian K Vaughans and Grant Morrisons of this industry, with awesome but not really big house name writers like Josh Dysart, Robert Venditti (who just a couple of years ago was my rep at the publisher he worked for), and Fred Van Lente.

[paradise]

hmm.. that's weird. I wonder how they ever got up to selling out 5 printings without needing any variants...? OH! I know! It's Vincent on the cover! When'd he mutate into a humanoid and start starring in a Image comic? Oh the depths some goats will sink to for a buck!

So, let's talk printings and variants. When BKV does it, it's all amazing, 5 printings, without variants. WHO do you think buys 75% of those printings? New readers? Bull crap. They are bought by the same cover completists who collect every cover. Same people that complain here that valiant dares to do 2nd and 3rd prints that they "have to" look for. That's why. Trust me, what about Ed Brubaker and multiple printings of his latest book? He keeps having Phillips draw new covers and putting out printings, because every time they do, they sell out. They print only a few on purpose because every time they sell out they can do another piece of art and sell more copies. It's the same thing that everyone else does. Nothing different.

Every company has to do whatever it takes to put more books out there. That's their goal.

[etos45]

I'll try to keep this simple and classy.

This is the type of negative crap that is based on nothing specific just to be negative that I have been talking about.

*Yawn*

You say you're tired of variant "ranting", I'm tired of the "ranting" ranting. Face facts, some people don't like it. If you don't like that they don't like it, don't read it. I do it all the time. I've don't it several times in this debate. You have different opinions from him. It happens.

Just saying.

[400yrs]

The anti-ranters are actually ranting more than the ranters. And they are doing so with scorn.

[Aram]

Every company has to do whatever it takes to put more books out there. That's their goal.

My concern would be with how many books this IS putting out there. I dont see you freely sharing how many copies of X-O manowar #1 or Harbinger #1 you have sitting around still. Multiply that by the amount of big online dealers that did the same kind of orders to get variants that you did and I bet the number of unsold X-O #1 that are sitting in a relatively few hands will be a greater amount than the 2nd print if not 3rd print run.

I hate to sound like a Leifeld by saying these things, but it is concerning for me considering the possible future repercussions of this business model if it gets out of hand. Like it "appears to be headed".

Right now I don't see there being an issue, but it's looking borderline to me to be about to create one. I think those comics will find homes over the next 6 months to 2 years, but not if numbers continue to be artificially inflated through tons of Variant incentives causing over ordering and repeat print runs due to the diehard rabid 10-20% unorthodox Valiant fan base.

I personally have spent hundreds of dollars so far to promote Valiant to others, not so I can profit in fact I lose every penny, but because I believe in Dinesh and in Valiant and I want Valiant to suceed. You say that voicing these opinions could hurt Valiant's bottom line, well I agree and it's not easy for me to come out and say these things. However I truly believe that remaining silent would do far more harm.

[400yrs]

Every company has to do whatever it takes to put more books out there. That's their goal.

My concern would be with how many books this IS putting out there. I dont see you freely sharing how many copies of X-O manowar #1 or Harbinger #1 you have sitting around still. Multiply that by the amount of big online dealers that did the same kind of orders to get variants that you did and I bet the number of unsold X-O #1 that are sitting in a relatively few hands will be a greater amount than the 2nd print if not 3rd print run.

I hate to sound like a Leifeld by saying these things, but it is concerning for me considering the possible future repercussions of this business model if it gets out of hand. Like it "appears to be headed".

Right now I don't see there being an issue, but it's looking borderline to me to be about to create one. I think those comics will find homes over the next 6 months to 2 years, but not if numbers continue to be artificially inflated through tons of Variant incentives causing over ordering and repeat print runs due to the diehard rabid 10-20% unorthodox Valiant fan base.

I personally have spent hundreds of dollars so far to promote Valiant to others, not so I can profit in fact I lose every penny, but because I believe in Dinesh and in Valiant and I want Valiant to suceed. You say that voicing these opinions could hurt Valiant's bottom line, well I agree and it's not easy for me to come out and say these things. However I truly believe that remaining silent would do far more harm.

You are overthinking this or underthinking it. I'm not sure which one.

Yeah, there are shops that have a bunch of firsts left, but there are also shops that ran out or didn't buy enough in the first place so they ordered 2nd or 3rd prints.

Even if there are a ton of shops around with first prints, having copies available for purchase on the shelves is a good thing because people will be able to read them / try them out. Not being available is a bad thing. The number of copies sitting on shelves is likely to diminish with each passing issue so the variants may jump a retailer by a few copies, but not a multitude of copies. If we are likely to see an abundance of any one issue out there, it's the #1 issues.

[Heath]

You call what Dinesh and company have been working on for at least 3-4 years, last minute decisions and compare it to Acclaim? REALLY? This is the type of negative crap that is based on nothing specific just to be negative that I have been talking about.

It's not based on nothing. It's his impression based on what he's seeing VEI do. I agree that the impression is wrong - but it's still the impression that VEI is giving. And as a Valiant Fan, he's not wrong to voice displeasure with that impression. You deserve the impression you give people - even if that impression is wrong.

So you know more about their plans than we do? Yay for you. But... so? That changes your impression. Maybe if we all knew what you knew our impressions would be different. (But since you fail to understand how the 25th announced variant, with only 11 regular books, doesn't have us giddy like little school girls at a Justin Bieber concert, I doubt that it would really change much.) The return of Ninjak in XO #5 really excites me. Four covers for XO #5 along with the eighth cover for XO #1 does not excite me. As of XO #5, that is 5 issues with 18 different covers total. And we should be excited about that?

It's absolutely NUTZ to compare SAGA to what Valiant is doing, starting a new publisher that is remembered by members of this site + maybe another 1,000 people.

I think you severely underestimate the old Valiant's impact if you're saying only 3,500 or so people remember Valiant. That's less than 1 person for every comic shop during their heyday. But maybe a more accurate comparison would be with the original Valiant. How many people remembered Magnus and Solar back in 1991? Some weird old characters that were never really big, by a defunct publisher that mostly did funny animals and licensed properties. And how many variants were there of Magnus #1? Solar #1? Harbinger #1? Shadowman #1? Rai #1? The first VH1 variant was A&A #1 Gold - over a year after the company launched Magnus #1. When that first variant came out, there were already 41 books that had been published without a single variant.

Other companies were doing gimmicks at the time. Silver Surver #50. Spider-Man #1. X-Force #1. X-Men #1. LotDK #1. Ghost Rider #15. Robin 2 #1. I remember those days quite well and Valiant stood apart because they didn't sink to cover gimmicks to sell copies (and that's all a variant is, is just a gimmick). They relied on solid writing and art. Image had flashy art and horrible writing. DC and Marvel had mediocre art and writing, but foil and holograms and embossed logos and glow-in-the-dark and multiple covers and polybags. Valiant had great stories and great art, without all of those gimmicks. And they became the #3 publisher ahead of Dark Horse and even Image! I will stand up loudly and proclaim my pride and excitement that VEI is carrying on the tradition of excellent writing and art. The content of the books so far have been superb and should make any old Valiant fan proud. I haven't been on pins and needles waiting for the next issue like this in a long time. I have been very vocal about NOT wanting them to relaunch Shadowman because I don't want them to screw him up like everybody not named Bob Hall did. But with only a couple books released, they are already giving me confidence that they can do Shadowman right and I'm started to get excited about what they might do with him. But this variant cover business, particularly the extent they are taking it to, is another matter. It's not in holding with the Valiant legacy.

This is where you argue that the market has changed since the 90's and variants are a necessary part of that and everybody does it and you point out examples. And then someone disagrees with that and points out counter examples (Zoom Suit? Saga?). And we go round and round and round.

That is the #1 reason why Valiant DOES NEED variants, because they are going up against Brian K Vaughans and Grant Morrisons of this industry, with awesome but not really big house name writers like Josh Dysart, Robert Venditti (who just a couple of years ago was my rep at the publisher he worked for), and Fred Van Lente.

And they weren't going up against big names before? The Peter Davids and Alan Moores and Neil Gaimans? And the absolute biggest names in comics at the time - McFarlane, Liefeld, Lee, etc - who had launched their own company to a lot of fanfare? I can't buy that argument.

VEI has much more of a legacy now than Valiant did in 1991. They have a much bigger "built-in" audience. History shows that quality trumps gimmicks.

So, let's talk printings and variants. When BKV does it, it's all amazing, 5 printings, without variants. WHO do you think buys 75% of those printings? New readers? Bull crap. They are bought by the same cover completists who collect every cover. Same people that complain here that valiant dares to do 2nd and 3rd prints that they "have to" look for. That's why. Trust me, what about Ed Brubaker and multiple printings of his latest book? He keeps having Phillips draw new covers and putting out printings, because every time they do, they sell out. They print only a few on purpose because every time they sell out they can do another piece of art and sell more copies. It's the same thing that everyone else does. Nothing different.

Every company has to do whatever it takes to put more books out there. That's their goal.

Valiant: The same thing that everyone else does. Nothing different. Not quite the tagline I would want if I were VEI. But I guess that's just me.

So, you're saying that additional printings and variants do little to bring in new readers. They are done just to "put more books out there" and sell more copies of the same book to the same group of people that are buying their books already. Yet, when I stated that I felt this was what was being done with the 3rd printing of XO #1, you took me to task for it (and rightfully so because I was wrong and that's not something I easily admit). But now you're saying it's OK that they do that because everybody else is doing it too and that it's the whole reason for multiple printings and variants?

Listen, those of us who are vocal about not liking the variants aren't be negative just for the sake of being negative. We LOVE Valiant, or we wouldn't be here. Our complaints aren't going to have any measurable effect on the market. If my complaints on the Internet were that powerful the world would be a much different place. It's great that you love the variants. But your posts come across as saying "shut up if you don't agree with me." And if this is not your first time arguing on the Internet, you should know that tactic does not work.

I will readily admit that this cartoon applies to me and very likely to a lot of other people.

[Aram]

+1000 on everything you just said. I think you voiced just about everything that some of us are feeling and thinking right now.

[400yrs]

Honestly, I'm not excited at all about Ninjak showing up already. He was a terrible character and I don't think I enjoyed any story that he was in. I would rather not see him at all, but to bring him in for only the second arc of the launch title....... Not excited. I know dinesh thinks there is a lot of potential there, but it is going to have to be blockbuster good to get me on board with th character. So no, the variants don't get me jazzed either.

[tchalla8]

Honestly, I'm not excited at all about Ninjak showing up already. He was a terrible character and I don't think I enjoyed any story that he was in. I would rather not see him at all, but to bring him in for only the second arc of the launch title....... Not excited. I know dinesh thinks there is a lot of potential there, but it is going to have to be blockbuster good to get me on board with th character. So no, the variants don't get me jazzed either.

I'm doing a re-read on a lot of post Unity stuff, and I know it takes a beating but I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying most of it. But I finally started Ninjak last night, and it was a chore just getting through issue #1. I'm hoping for a complete overhaul this time around.

[400yrs]

Honestly, I'm not excited at all about Ninjak showing up already. He was a terrible character and I don't think I enjoyed any story that he was in. I would rather not see him at all, but to bring him in for only the second arc of the launch title....... Not excited. I know dinesh thinks there is a lot of potential there, but it is going to have to be blockbuster good to get me on board with th character. So no, the variants don't get me jazzed either.

I'm doing a re-read on a lot of post Unity stuff, and I know it takes a beating but I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying most of it. But I finally started Ninjak last night, and it was a chore just getting through issue #1. I'm hoping for a complete overhaul this time around.

I'm rereading as well. Mikhail is the worst of all post unity books and it doesn't get any better as it goes along. Seriously. The only worse part of valiant was deathmate.

It is so bad that my auto correct won't recognize ninjak

[Aram]

Honestly, I'm not excited at all about Ninjak showing up already. He was a terrible character and I don't think I enjoyed any story that he was in. I would rather not see him at all, but to bring him in for only the second arc of the launch title....... Not excited. I know dinesh thinks there is a lot of potential there, but it is going to have to be blockbuster good to get me on board with th character. So no, the variants don't get me jazzed either.

I'm doing a re-read on a lot of post Unity stuff, and I know it takes a beating but I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying most of it. But I finally started Ninjak last night, and it was a chore just getting through issue #1. I'm hoping for a complete overhaul this time around.

I'm rereading as well. Mikhail is the worst of all post unity books and it doesn't get any better as it goes along. Seriously. The only worse part of valiant was deathmate.

It is so bad that my auto correct won't recognize ninjak

Been a while.. But I thought Ninjak was pretty cool, in bloodshot... For 2 issues... Before he had his own book...

[David_Cody]

I think Ninjak had a lot of potential. It didn't help that changed the look after several issues and that there were multiple writers/artists. I thought there were some issues that were entertaining.

[GGSAE]

I for one think most of the Variants have been done well, the idea of having two inter-locking characters facing off is pretty unique (and crafty in that it forces the completist to get both). But on the subject of variants, we do they have to have 4 variant covers showing a new character? Wouldn't the new character be enough drive for the reader to buy those issues? And if that is not the case, why not just have just a 1:20, or a line-wide variant. The reason we're complaining about the variants because we're voicing our concern in hopes VEI adjusts the distribution model so that it's not nearly as costly, because long-term it's not sustainable for many of us to buy every single new valiant comic, especially with all variants thrown in. If you do a 1:100 line wide variant, they'll be a lot cheaper, but the market won't be flooded with nearly as many covers, so more collectors will go after them, and they'll be cheaper because more issues will be printed.

Wouldn't it also be less risk for a retailer for the retailer to try and sell 5, 5-10$ variants, as opposed to trying to sell just 1 $50 variant?

[depluto]

Wouldn't it also be less risk for a retailer for the retailer to try and sell 5, 5-10$ variants, as opposed to trying to sell just 1 $50 variant?

If that were the case I might get on board for a few variants. $5-10 and I don't really feel like I'm spending too much.

[depluto]

And I think we're almost to the point where people are ranting about people ranting about people ranting about variants.