Second batch just sent in to CGC for grading!

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Sat May 21, 2005 6:39 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
224gideon wrote:WRONG MR. YEARS!!mARKETS ALL REACT VIRTUALLY THE SAME WHETHER IT'S A LUXURY ITEM OR A COMMODITY!
Um.

Ok, it's becoming apparent to me that no amount of education will remedy this, so I give.

I will use a differnet exampLe namely the collectible coin market which had record highs for graded coins in the mid eighties bottomed out around the last few years and now are seeing a upsurge again!WHY?Is it rarity or demand?
Demand.

Rarity without demand means nothing.

Did the demand go down?
Yes.

these coins were already rare and heavily speculated on hence the bottom dropping out.
Um. You really don't know much about the graded coin market and its history, do you?

Define 'rare' as it relates to coins. Define 'bottom dropping out' as it relates to rare coins.

What has changed fromthe eighties to now for coins to have another upsurge?
Demand.

Economy one. and a underperforming stockmarket two!There was always a demand for these rare coins so what gives?
Um, no.

Demand lessened because people realized that the COMMON and LOW GRADE uncircs (MS60-63) were all over the place, and the prices they were having to pay from dealers (pre-internet, mind!) was not worth it to them.

And define 'there was always a demand...'

What kind of demand? Static? Or fluctuating?

A major collector of coins dies....demand changes. A lot of new people get interested in coins...demand changes. People lose interest in coins....demand changes.

Again, it goes back to the 'define "rare" as it relates to coins' question.

SPECULATION WILL KILL A MARKET!!
Not if you corner said market. But that's a story for another thread.

For valiants to have a price surge it may take more than 3 years or less....
that's something that is harder to predict!
Well, duh.

But for Valiants to achieve their full potential, the characters must be RECOGNIZABLY PUBLISHED.

But rest assured if this is the bottom the price can go down further but if we see prices level off then a consistent bottom has been formed now it's time to wait to see what will happen and how it will take to from new highs!
My bottom is consistent.....the consistency of marshmallows.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sat May 21, 2005 8:46 pm

Waitaminute, Zeph is EATING HIS BOOKS? I guess that would add to the rarity . . .

GJB · Post by **GJB** » Sat May 21, 2005 10:26 pm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... d45134f2bd

224gideon · Post by **224gideon** » Sat May 21, 2005 11:02 pm

YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!!THE LAST FEW POSTS WERE TOTALLY HILARIOUS!

ZEPH-MS64 $20 ST.GAUDENS WERE COMMANDING AROUND 2400 DOLLARS IN 1986.
bY 1996 THE SAME COIN ,SAME GRADE WAS DOWN TO $835 AND IN 2003 THE COIN WAS DOWN TO $660!

So what happened to the same coin ,same grade?Did demand lower or did someone find a stash of high grade coins that brought the market down?

Maybe you forgot why the gold market crahsed down?Because there's a sucker born every minute and people were buying gold at $800 an ounce thinking it was going to go HIGHER!!That's speculation ZEPH!!Look the word up!They thought that the market could go higher yet when it reversed so quickly they had little time to liquidate without losing alot of dough!

And you can simplify markets into one year to date bottoms and one year to date tops.The rest is really just mumbo jumbo that people try to impress you with there KNOWLEDGE OF THE MARKETS!!

Coin markets came down because of the speculative aspect in THINKING THAT THE MARKET WOULD GO HIGHER........USUALLY BY THE TIME THE NEWS GETS AHOLD OF AND REPORTS ON AN INVESTMENT IT'S TIME TO GET OUT!!.Just like the poeple who lost there butts in the 2001 stock crash.....9-11 just pushed faster what was surely destined to happen.
Investing in companies that don't produce anything of value and haven't turned a profit .That's what killed the stock market-SPECULATION-.tHIS IS THE DEFINITION IN THEDICTIONARY:to indulge in conjectural thought.to buy and sell commodities or stocks,hazardously inthe expectation of great profit.a conjecture or surmise.....hmmm...it smells like the consistency of marshmallows around here!

From what i read when valiant's took the comic world by storm people starting hoarding the books with the hope that what......THEY WOULD GO UP!!Were those books rare then?WERE THEY IN DEMAND!!You bet they were and yet demand alone did not turn that market around it actually sunk that market.If anyone is interested in where i spout these ideas from check out:

http://www.elliotwave.com

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:48 am

Zeph's eating GOLD TOO? Damn dude, I know you've got expensive tastes . . .

Y'now, that might not be a bad ice-cream.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:57 am

Whet, that is hideously harsh ... and funny.

Personally, I'd rather shove a rabid badger up my *SQUEE* than argue with ZWH about the coin market.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:15 am

I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a minute that Zeph has access to rabid badgers, much less a willingness to eat or shove them anywhere.

Speaking of Rabid, did you see that Disney's putting out OLD YELLER BRAND dog food? Does each bag come with a single bullet or something? Have the marketing geniuses who came up with this ever seen the friggin movie?

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:17 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a minute that Zeph has access to rabid badgers, much less a willingness to eat or shove them anywhere.

Speaking of Rabid, did you see that Disney's putting out OLD YELLER BRAND dog food? Does each bag come with a single bullet or something? Have the marketing geniuses who came up with this ever seen the friggin movie?

"You'll cry every time you fill their dish."

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:30 am

depluto wrote:
X-O HoboJoe wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a minute that Zeph has access to rabid badgers, much less a willingness to eat or shove them anywhere.

Speaking of Rabid, did you see that Disney's putting out OLD YELLER BRAND dog food? Does each bag come with a single bullet or something? Have the marketing geniuses who came up with this ever seen the friggin movie?
"You'll cry every time you fill their dish."

The info I saw said that Yeller got rabies from a wolf . . . I thought it was wild pigs that infected him. Regardless, at age 5, I went stone silent once Yeller was shot, didn't say a word home from the theater, got home, took plastic handcuffs to a kid named Timmy, locked him to a chain-link fence and proceeded to beat him with a wiffle-ball bat (see, the bat thing goes waaaay back). Once my father'd beat my *SQUEE* and sent Timmy home, he asked what possessed me to chain this poor kid up and beat him.

"He shot Yeller, dad. He shot Yeller."

My dad tells that story every Thanksgiving.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:48 am

224gideon wrote:YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!!THE LAST FEW POSTS WERE TOTALLY HILARIOUS!

ZEPH-MS64 $20 ST.GAUDENS WERE COMMANDING AROUND 2400 DOLLARS IN 1986.
bY 1996 THE SAME COIN ,SAME GRADE WAS DOWN TO $835 AND IN 2003 THE COIN WAS DOWN TO $660!

Why are you yelling?

So what happened to the same coin ,same grade?Did demand lower or did someone find a stash of high grade coins that brought the market down?

Technically, both. As more coins were graded, the population grew.

Concurrently, demand fell, because buyers realized that the coins were out there, and could be had for less.

Supply + demand.

Basic as apple pie.

Maybe you forgot why the gold market crahsed down?

Yes, I, a student of the history of coins and precious metals, FORGOT why the market crashed down.

Because there's a sucker born every minute and people were buying gold at $800 an ounce thinking it was going to go HIGHER!!That's speculation ZEPH!!Look the word up!

Again, why are you yelling? Do you think we can't read if you don't type in caps with 17 exclamation points?

You know what always amuses me? People who don't know what they're talking about saying...or, rather, yelling...'look the word (ANY WORD) up!'.

224....all I have for you is a big fat DUH.

What is speculation again? Ah yes....gambling on FUTURE DEMAND.

Demand....only, in the FUTURE.

What part of DUH don't you get?

The D? Or the U? Or perhaps the H?

And for the record...the market didn't 'crash down' because people were speculating in gold...the market crashed down because of...what? Say it with me, now:

Supply caught up with demand.

Econ 101.

Again: the market crashed down because SUPPLY not only CAUGHT UP with demand, but so MUCH supply flooded the market that demand wasn't enough to even SUSTAIN IT, much less drive prices higher, and.....

....as always happens when supply exceeds demand....

...the value of the stuff fell.

It's simple.

Speculation (remember: gambling against FUTURE demand) HAPPENED because there was CURRENT demand, and that demand caused prices to go high, until the market could naturally correct itself and the subsequent flood of supply brought it all back down again.

They thought that the market could go higher yet when it reversed so quickly they had little time to liquidate without losing alot of dough!

Yeah, duh.

Duh is such a nice word...it's a quick and easy way to say "yes, you ignoramus, pull your head out and get with the program, because your understanding of the subject at hand is limited at best, and yet you're still arguing about it" without having to TYPE "yes, you ignoramus, pull your head out and get with the program, because your understanding of the subject at hand is limited at best, and yet you're still arguing about it."

Duh.

So what's your point? Where's the argument here? Do you not understand what the word speculation means?

Let me say it again: gambling on FUTURE DEMAND.

Notice that word 'demand' in there?

And you can simplify markets into one year to date bottoms and one year to date tops.The rest is really just mumbo jumbo that people try to impress you with there KNOWLEDGE OF THE MARKETS!!

Okey dokey.

Coin markets came down because of the speculative aspect in THINKING THAT THE MARKET WOULD GO HIGHER

And what is speculation again? Ah yes: gambling against FUTURE DEMAND.

Demand was MET....supply was overabundant...prices came down.

How more simply must I explain this to you?

........USUALLY BY THE TIME THE NEWS GETS AHOLD OF AND REPORTS ON AN INVESTMENT IT'S TIME TO GET OUT!!.Just like the poeple who lost there butts in the 2001 stock crash.....9-11 just pushed faster what was surely destined to happen.

The stock crash actually came in 2000. Market peak was March of 2000. Go ahead, look it up. I'll wait....

...finished?

Investing in companies that don't produce anything of value and haven't turned a profit .That's what killed the stock market-SPECULATION-.tHIS IS THE DEFINITION IN THEDICTIONARY:to indulge in conjectural thought.to buy and sell commodities or stocks,hazardously inthe expectation of great profit.a conjecture or surmise.....hmmm...it smells like the consistency of marshmallows around here!

Again with the yelling.

"consistency" is not a characteristic determined by smell.

Let me break down your screaming for you:

"That's what killed the stock market-SPECULATION-.tHIS IS THE DEFINITION IN THEDICTIONARY:" ~ Speculation is gambling against future demand.

"to indulge in conjectural thought.to buy and sell commodities or stocks,hazardously inthe expectation of great profit." ~ in other words...to gamble against future demand.

From what i read when valiant's took the comic world by storm people starting hoarding the books with the hope that what......THEY WOULD GO UP!!

Yes, dear. That's called speculation, which is what again? Come on, we learned this in class....

Ah yes....speculation is GAMBLING AGAINST FUTURE DEMAND.

(Great, now I'M yelling.

)

So...your point is? That people speculated? That they were betting on future demand? DUH! What are you trying to say here that is in OPPOSITION to anything I have written?

SUPPLY and DEMAND, son.

Were those books rare then?WERE THEY IN DEMAND!!You bet they were and yet demand alone did not turn that market around it actually sunk that market.If anyone is interested in where i spout these ideas from check out:

Demand...or, rather, LACK of demand...sunk that market, as it sinks any market. Demand, on the other hand, will not sink any market. Markets aren't done in because

Think about that for a second, it'll sink in ~ no market on earth has EVER been done in because there was 'too much demand'.

What is demand again? Ah yes: "the desire to obtain something, and the ability to pay for it."

No, what happened with Valiant, as what happens in ALL markets is: supply eventually met demand, or, rather, demand GREATLY DIMINISHED to the point where the existing supply soon met whatever demand was left.

It wasn't "demand" that sunk the market...it was gambling against FUTURE demand (speculation, if you remember) , and LOSING that gamble that vastly diminished the then CURRENT demand, and led to a downward spiral until the market hit rock bottom about 1997-98.

See, what your problem is is this: you're confusing DEMAND with HYPE. Demand is an actual, real, quantifiable phenomenon, while HYPE is simply someone(s) trying to GET people to have demand.

You shouldn't confuse the two.

HYPE is what led the the DEMAND which created the market in the first place, and HYPE is what led people to buy multiple copies of books with an OVERabundant supply. When those people SPECULATED (gambled against FUTURE demand, natch) on books with an OVERabundant supply, and that FUTURE demand never materialized, having been adequately sated with EXISTING supply.

When this scenario repeated itself over and over again, people got angry, felt burned, and....guess.

Their DEMAND went away!

Ain't that great how that works?

http://www.elliotwave.com

That's nice, dear. I don't have time to check out your nice website, but if they know anything about markets, they will understand and agree with everything that I've just typed.

I'm not quite sure even YOU know what you're talking about, 224, as your thoughts are haphazard and random.

Good luck with that, though.

Remember ~ speculation is gambling against (or, in plainer English, "in the hopes of") future demand.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:53 am

whetteon wrote:I just wanted to add that oil is a consumable commidity where when you use it, it's gone forever. I think comics are not only non-neccessity but non-consumable (unless zwh is eating his books). These two markets would act very different from each other. A better market to compare comics to would be diamonds, gold and coins. All these things have intrinstic (sp?) value, are non-neccessities and non-consumable. In fact, what does gold do for our society instead of just looking pretty? Any redemable qualities other then jewerly?

Well, if this was before 1933, I'd have said "plenty!", but it's not, so I won't.

However, it does have several redeeming qualities in the fields of medicine, dentistry, and audio-visual.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:55 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:Zeph's eating GOLD TOO? Damn dude, I know you've got expensive tastes . . .

Y'now, that might not be a bad ice-cream.

What do you think I do with all the leftover gold from making my plain EW #1's into Gold Embossed copies....?

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:59 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a minute that Zeph has access to rabid badgers, much less a willingness to eat or shove them anywhere.

No, no, it's DEP who wants to shove one up his *SQUEE*. I won't be doing the shoving, thanks.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Sun May 22, 2005 7:48 am

224gideon wrote:WRONG MR. YEARS!!

NOW I remember you and your prior posts, Mickey. Call me Bob, not mr. years as that is not my name. How many 9.9s do you expect out of this latest round of submissions? <chuckles>

It's obvious that you DO NOT and CANNOT understand the simple laws of supply and demand. Instead you choose to spew your incorrect thoughts on the topic. I recommend the following to you:

1. Discontinue posting your incorrect drivel about supply/"rarity" and demand here,
2. Get together about a dozen rocks (rare or common),
3. Sit them down in chairs (antique or the Wal-Mart TM variety),
4. Go ahead and preach and have a ball!!!

By the way, don't bother PM'ing me anymore as they will just be deleted. I don't have the time nor the patience to read it.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun May 22, 2005 9:38 am

Or better yet, argue with ZWH about the coin market. I'm fresh out of badgers!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:17 am

400yrs wrote:
224gideon wrote:WRONG MR. YEARS!!
NOW I remember you and your prior posts, Mickey. Call me Bob, not mr. years as that is not my name. How many 9.9s do you expect out of this latest round of submissions? <chuckles>

It's obvious that you DO NOT and CANNOT understand the simple laws of supply and demand. Instead you choose to spew your incorrect thoughts on the topic. I recommend the following to you:

1. Discontinue posting your incorrect drivel about supply/"rarity" and demand here,
2. Get together about a dozen rocks (rare or common),
3. Sit them down in chairs (antique or the Wal-Mart TM variety),
4. Go ahead and preach and have a ball!!!

By the way, don't bother PM'ing me anymore as they will just be deleted. I don't have the time nor the patience to read it.

<nods solemnly>

Does this count as another ZWH delivered thrashing?

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:49 pm

I was wondering if anyone could give me a deifinition of "speculation"? I'm a bit confused.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:24 pm

ckb wrote:I was wondering if anyone could give me a deifinition of "speculation"? I'm a bit confused.

Gambling against futu.....oh YOU! Honestly!

<smirk>

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:57 pm

depluto wrote:Or better yet, argue with ZWH about the coin market. I'm fresh out of badgers!

Wee don' need no steenkeen badgers . . .

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:59 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
400yrs wrote:
224gideon wrote:WRONG MR. YEARS!!
NOW I remember you and your prior posts, Mickey. Call me Bob, not mr. years as that is not my name. How many 9.9s do you expect out of this latest round of submissions? <chuckles>

It's obvious that you DO NOT and CANNOT understand the simple laws of supply and demand. Instead you choose to spew your incorrect thoughts on the topic. I recommend the following to you:

1. Discontinue posting your incorrect drivel about supply/"rarity" and demand here,
2. Get together about a dozen rocks (rare or common),
3. Sit them down in chairs (antique or the Wal-Mart TM variety),
4. Go ahead and preach and have a ball!!!

By the way, don't bother PM'ing me anymore as they will just be deleted. I don't have the time nor the patience to read it.
<nods solemnly>

Does this count as another ZWH delivered thrashing?

Duh.

If nothing else, we'll call it a scouring, and let him into the Valiant Mafia now, once he completes his VM basic training.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun May 22, 2005 6:05 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
depluto wrote:Or better yet, argue with ZWH about the coin market. I'm fresh out of badgers!
Wee don' need no steenkeen badgers . . .