Anyone read this in a recent Jim Shooter blog post?

[BruceReville]

You know I always liked Jim's ideas for characters but he is on such a losing streak with new companies/stories it isn't even funny. Whether it is him or just bad luck with finances or management here is his recent track record.

New Universe (Marvel) - Cancelled after 3 years
Valiant Comics - Fired from Valiant - company sold t Acclaim and folded 8 years after it began with a Shooter tale Unity 2000 not completed.
Defiant Comics - lasted 2 years
Broadway Comics - Didn't last a year
Dark Horse Gold Key (AKA: Dark Key) - Now on hiatus with nothing but speculation in its future.

[Second_Death]

I'd like to hear the story. I'm sure it has some merit to it. Regardless though, whatever Jim says, it's always negative unless it's something that's stroking his cack. It's old and at some point, you've got to realize the problem is him and take his side of things with a grain of salt.

If by good stuff, he means the type of stuff he wrote for Dark Horse (yes, he wrote there), he doesn't know what good stuff is.


The accrued vacation comment is a bit weird. Wondering if the accrued vacation is the $4K or if the $4K is on top of that. $4K for accrued vacation would be alot for 7.5 months of service. I'm sure an employer could argue that the vacation time was applied at the end as salary if no notice was actually given.

The vast majority of Jim's comments that I have read are positive. Even with those he has had disagreements with, he offers compliments, gives credit, and offers mostly positive commentary where appropriate. It appears that in regards to the subject in question, Jim's association with VEI appears to have only been discussed a couple of times on his blog since it was started months ago so there doesn't seem to be evidence to support your criticism.

In regards to Jim's writing, did you read all of the DK books, his LOSH run, or scripts from both that have been made available?

[xodacia81]

I'd like to hear the story. I'm sure it has some merit to it. Regardless though, whatever Jim says, it's always negative unless it's something that's stroking his cack. It's old and at some point, you've got to realize the problem is him and take his side of things with a grain of salt.

If by good stuff, he means the type of stuff he wrote for Dark Horse (yes, he wrote there), he doesn't know what good stuff is.


The accrued vacation comment is a bit weird. Wondering if the accrued vacation is the $4K or if the $4K is on top of that. $4K for accrued vacation would be alot for 7.5 months of service. I'm sure an employer could argue that the vacation time was applied at the end as salary if no notice was actually given.

The vast majority of Jim's comments that I have read are positive. Even with those he has had disagreements with, he offers compliments, gives credit, and offers mostly positive commentary where appropriate. It appears that in regards to the subject in question, Jim's association with VEI appears to have only been discussed a couple of times on his blog since it was started months ago so there doesn't seem to be evidence to support your criticism.

In regards to Jim's writing, did you read all of the DK books, his LOSH run, or scripts from both that have been made available?

For me, the DK books were so dreadful I stopped buying them. His most recent LOSH run was utter trash. Broadway didn't get a good shot, but while it had some ideas, the execution was off. Defiant was a little stronger. Early Valiant was not just him. It was also Bob Layton, Barry Windsor-Smith, Don Perlin and many other old hands, plus a crop of kids that have gone on to great things. The more I look at it, the more I do wonder if "Big Jim" doesn't stand for "Big Ego" and if we might not have books from VEI if he hadn't bolted.

[StarBrand]

It's a key point that there were other talented creators at Valiant besides Shooter. Another example is Bob Hall.

[xodacia81]

It's a key point that there were other talented creators at Valiant besides Shooter. Another example is Bob Hall.

I think Hall came in just after or as Shooter left.

[StarBrand]

It's a key point that there were other talented creators at Valiant besides Shooter. Another example is Bob Hall.

I think Hall came in just after or as Shooter left.

Oh, well good point, which speaks to Valiant at a high level without Shooter.

[Triumphant Serial Number]

As quick as people might be to characterize Shooter's comments as those of a 'bitter old man' (and truthfully, even when he was a young man he could be seen as bitter, he seems to have always been as he is) or just Shooter being a failure etc . . .

It's not just him.

If you put him in a room with Layton and they wouldn't even agree to disagree.

But one thing they could agree on is their feelings towards VEI.

[400yrs]

The vast majority of Jim's comments that I have read are positive. Even with those he has had disagreements with, he offers compliments, gives credit, and offers mostly positive commentary where appropriate. It appears that in regards to the subject in question, Jim's association with VEI appears to have only been discussed a couple of times on his blog since it was started months ago so there doesn't seem to be evidence to support your criticism.

I'm talking about all his blog posts in general. Not just the ones about VEI. He often comes off as bitter. In fact, about the only place he seems human is in his responses to people in the comments sections.

In regards to Jim's writing, did you read all of the DK books, his LOSH run, or scripts from both that have been made available?

DK books - Nope. I stopped after I realized they were 60s books in the 2000s. I don't want to read that and if I did, I could get reprints of stuff for alot cheaper. I read Solar 1-4, Magnus 1 and 2, Turok 1, Samson 1 (maybe my favorite) and then I cancelled my orders.

LoSH - Nope. Not a DC guy.... especially not the continuity intense titles.

Scripts - Nope. I enjoy comics, not scripts.

[400yrs]

As quick as people might be to characterize Shooter's comments as those of a 'bitter old man' (and truthfully, even when he was a young man he could be seen as bitter, he seems to have always been as he is) or just Shooter being a failure etc . . .

It's not just him.

If you put him in a room with Layton and they wouldn't even agree to disagree.

But one thing they could agree on is their feelings towards VEI.

True. So maybe it's good that VEI is no longer dealing with cranky old men who aren't doing much successful stuff nowadays in the industry.

[xodacia81]

As quick as people might be to characterize Shooter's comments as those of a 'bitter old man' (and truthfully, even when he was a young man he could be seen as bitter, he seems to have always been as he is) or just Shooter being a failure etc . . .

It's not just him.

If you put him in a room with Layton and they wouldn't even agree to disagree.

But one thing they could agree on is their feelings towards VEI.

True. So maybe it's good that VEI is no longer dealing with cranky old men who aren't doing much successful stuff nowadays in the industry.

I will say that I think Layton and Shooter have done wonderful work, in the past, but neither man has had a real hit or a wonder in 15 years or more. That is quite telling. Sometimes, you do just lose it. VEI may be run by those new to the business, but that does not mean that two of the biggest egos this side of Stan Lee and Dan DiDio are "correct" in everything they say. So, yes, it may just be a good thing, after all. VEI could very well have dodged a bullet.

[Triumphant Serial Number]

Except NONE of Layton's or Shooter's problems with VEI (save cover design with Shooter, which seems very low on the list of his problems with them) had ANYTHING to do with old-fashioned sensibilities or whether they've had hits or what their egos are.

Their problems were with how VEI didn't fulfill it's supposed obligations and even payment issues.

Even if you think Shooter is just a crazy old bitter guy who hates everyone . . . That doesn't explain Layton.

The constant is VEI.

Have they changed now with their new people and funding?

[FormerReader]

Except NONE of Layton's or Shooter's problems with VEI (save cover design with Shooter, which seems very low on the list of his problems with them) had ANYTHING to do with old-fashioned sensibilities or whether they've had hits or what their egos are.

Their problems were with how VEI didn't fulfill it's supposed obligations and even payment issues.

Even if you think Shooter is just a crazy old bitter guy who hates everyone . . . That doesn't explain Layton.

The constant is VEI.

Have they changed now with their new people and funding?

I don't pretend to know what happened, but the constant has been Shooter too often in the past to think that he isn't partially to blame. I don't know anyone involved, but if a person continues to lose job after job a reasonable assumption can be made that they are probably partially to blame. Could VEI be partially at fault? Sure.

[Second_Death]

Certainly Jim is a factor in each situation. Can't think of anyone talented in their profession who doesn't have some ego. Goes with the territory. There is little doubt his departure from VEI could have been handled infinitely better on both sides. Even his recent time on LOSH writing for DC lead to disagreements in regards to the creative direction of the title.

However, to suggest Jim is at fault for his ouster at Valiant, the end of Defiant, and the bankruptcy-induced fall of Broadway is at the very least historical revisionism.

[xodacia81]

Certainly Jim is a factor in each situation. Can't think of anyone talented in their profession who doesn't have some ego. Goes with the territory. There is little doubt his departure from VEI could have been handled infinitely better on both sides. Even his recent time on LOSH writing for DC lead to disagreements in regards to the creative direction of the title.

However, to suggest Jim is at fault for his ouster at Valiant, the end of Defiant, and the bankruptcy-induced fall of Broadway is at the very least historical revisionism.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he alone is responsible, but the facts are that he chose to put more money in the fight against Marvel over Plasm/Plasmer, then Defiant could afford. He did not negotiate a good business deal with Broadway Media, and as for Valiant...oh, poor poor Jim. He didn't get the golden parachute he wanted, so he took his ball, went home and found his office cleared out for him.

[Second_Death]

So the suggestion is that Jim is responsible for the failure of Defiant and Broadway? I would like to see evidence supporting the assumption that he had any other option than to make the decisions he made in those situations.

I'm not privy to all the details surrounding his departure from VEI as most probably aren't either. With everything he has experienced, the last thing he was probably willing to do was maintain the status quo in an uncertain situation. Our friends at VEI can certainly relate considering how much they have had to deal with themselves legally.

[Elveen]

If I ever get to meet Jim, I would like to shake his hand, thank him for the wonderful stories and feelings I got from reading Valiant. Thank him for getting me into reading comics and thans him for the opportunity to meet so many great friends (some of the best people I have met in my adult life) that I have met on this board, that I only visited because of him. So BIG thanks indeed.

As for VEI and Jim. What happened, happened.

I'm SUPER excited for what VEI is going to do. I was VERY impressed with the guys I met a SDCC.

Maybe Dino and Jason did not have a bunch of experience, but it seems like they have hired good people. I think that is a good thing.

[Second_Death]

The vast majority of Jim's comments that I have read are positive. Even with those he has had disagreements with, he offers compliments, gives credit, and offers mostly positive commentary where appropriate. It appears that in regards to the subject in question, Jim's association with VEI appears to have only been discussed a couple of times on his blog since it was started months ago so there doesn't seem to be evidence to support your criticism.

I'm talking about all his blog posts in general. Not just the ones about VEI. He often comes off as bitter. In fact, about the only place he seems human is in his responses to people in the comments sections.

In regards to Jim's writing, did you read all of the DK books, his LOSH run, or scripts from both that have been made available?

DK books - Nope. I stopped after I realized they were 60s books in the 2000s. I don't want to read that and if I did, I could get reprints of stuff for alot cheaper. I read Solar 1-4, Magnus 1 and 2, Turok 1, Samson 1 (maybe my favorite) and then I cancelled my orders.

LoSH - Nope. Not a DC guy.... especially not the continuity intense titles.

Scripts - Nope. I enjoy comics, not scripts.

Well, since you visit and read his blog, it does appear you still enjoy his writing. I suspect since many of us who read all of the DK books agree the quality improved with each issue, that you will eventually read the last of them as well if for nothing more than curiosity. Jim may make the occasionally negative comment but most likely no more often than you, I, or many others here. With his age and experience, he certainly has many things to share and not all of them will be pleasant. That doesn't make him bitter

Not a DC fan either, but read Jim's LOSH run and the issues before it. As I recall, the first several arcs of that volume of LOSH were written by Mark Waid with someone else writing some of the issues before Jim's run. Jim's issues were about the same level of quality as Waid's (although different). Neither were great but about as good as can reasonably be expected these days from a futuristic superhero book.

In the end, not everything Jim has written is likely to appeal to you or I. Have little interest in reading anymore of the New Universe than I already have but just as much as I have enjoyed things I've read by Waid, Kirkman, or Moore, some of their books simply don't work for me either.

Next time you visit Jim's blog, read one of his scripts. They are excellent examples of how good a comic can be.

[Triumphant Serial Number]

But people are still focusing on Shooter and ignoring Layton's blow-up with VEI.

Other than their love of ponytails and being EiC's of Valiant, the two have been nothing alike since, ignoring their mutual animosity.

Layton wanted to do more Hercules at Marvel, so he did more Hercules at Marvel. Shooter couldn't overcome differences with his editor at Marvel and his Avengers project never got off the ground. His DC run was cut well short of completion.

Layton wanted to work in Hollywood so he worked in Hollywood. Layton's been on red carpets. Shooter hasn't done work for Hollywood to my knowledge. Layton wanted to write for tv and animation, so he wrote for tv and animation. Layton was still on great terms with Michelinie, so they still collaborate. No former collaborators have worked with Shooter in the last decade (in comics at least), everyone on DK or at DC was new to him.

Layton still claimed to be on good terms with the Valiant honchos after he thought he was getting the shaft, but claimed that it was just business, and business was business. Shooter on the other hand was the opposite.

So Layton is the opposite of Shooter.

But Layton had problems with VEI, BIG problems. I hope they've sorted themselves out.

It's no different than the old days when there was enough evidence that the Valiant heads were a shady group. The proof wasn't Shooter or his allegations . . . that was one man and one incident One time is nothing. No, the smoke and fire came from Barry Windsor-Smith, who was not Shooter's friend by any means, later having what appeared to be the same exact problems with the Valiant people. THAT was a pattern, just like Shooter and Layton, no friend of Shooter's, are a pattern.

[xodacia81]

If I ever get to meet Jim, I would like to shake his hand, thank him for the wonderful stories and feelings I got from reading Valiant. Thank him for getting me into reading comics and thans him for the opportunity to meet so many great friends (some of the best people I have met in my adult life) that I have met on this board, that I only visited because of him. So BIG thanks indeed.

As for VEI and Jim. What happened, happened.

I'm SUPER excited for what VEI is going to do. I was VERY impressed with the guys I met a SDCC.

Maybe Dino and Jason did not have a bunch of experience, but it seems like they have hired good people. I think that is a good thing.

That's pretty much how I feel, too. I appreciate the great stories Shooter has told in the past, but he's exactly the same as any other person and is not infallible. I would shake his hand, thank him for the stories I've enjoyed, MAYBE make a lighthearted joke about "except that last Legion run" and then ask him one of two questions:

What were your plans for the next 5 years at Valiant if you had not left?
Which hurts more, the death of Broadway or the death of Defiant?

[xodacia81]

But people are still focusing on Shooter and ignoring Layton's blow-up with VEI.

Other than their love of ponytails and being EiC's of Valiant, the two have been nothing alike since, ignoring their mutual animosity.

Layton wanted to do more Hercules at Marvel, so he did more Hercules at Marvel. Shooter couldn't overcome differences with his editor at Marvel and his Avengers project never got off the ground. His DC run was cut well short of completion.

Layton wanted to work in Hollywood so he worked in Hollywood. Layton's been on red carpets. Shooter hasn't done work for Hollywood to my knowledge. Layton wanted to write for tv and animation, so he wrote for tv and animation. Layton was still on great terms with Michelinie, so they still collaborate. No former collaborators have worked with Shooter in the last decade (in comics at least), everyone on DK or at DC was new to him.

Layton still claimed to be on good terms with the Valiant honchos after he thought he was getting the shaft, but claimed that it was just business, and business was business. Shooter on the other hand was the opposite.

So Layton is the opposite of Shooter.

But Layton had problems with VEI, BIG problems. I hope they've sorted themselves out.

It's no different than the old days when there was enough evidence that the Valiant heads were a shady group. The proof wasn't Shooter or his allegations . . . that was one man and one incident One time is nothing. No, the smoke and fire came from Barry Windsor-Smith, who was not Shooter's friend by any means, later having what appeared to be the same exact problems with the Valiant people. THAT was a pattern, just like Shooter and Layton, no friend of Shooter's, are a pattern.

I have been among those who have said that VEI has made missteps along the way. However, it cuts both ways. BOTH may have made mistakes. It is not an excuse, but the VEI guys were very new to the business, and you learn by actions and mistakes. Neither one, to me, is "greater" and certainly just because it "was" Jim Shooter does not mean that it is somehow "more" the other party's fault. Instead of placing blame, I'd rather look at solutions and gaze towards the future.

[400yrs]

It's no different than the old days when there was enough evidence that the Valiant heads were a shady group. The proof wasn't Shooter or his allegations . . . that was one man and one incident One time is nothing. No, the smoke and fire came from Barry Windsor-Smith, who was not Shooter's friend by any means, later having what appeared to be the same exact problems with the Valiant people. THAT was a pattern, just like Shooter and Layton, no friend of Shooter's, are a pattern.

What was the deal with Layton and BWS?

I'm not saying the bolded part above is wrong. Not at all. In fact, it may be completely accurate. However, the VEI guys are in the position to be able to launch a universe that got me excited about comics once. For me, this isn't about supporting VEI or supporting Jim Shooter or hating both or liking both. For me, this is about reading good comics. At this point, I think VEI may be making a good run toward that.

[xodacia81]

It's no different than the old days when there was enough evidence that the Valiant heads were a shady group. The proof wasn't Shooter or his allegations . . . that was one man and one incident One time is nothing. No, the smoke and fire came from Barry Windsor-Smith, who was not Shooter's friend by any means, later having what appeared to be the same exact problems with the Valiant people. THAT was a pattern, just like Shooter and Layton, no friend of Shooter's, are a pattern.

What was the deal with Layton and BWS?

I'm not saying the bolded part above is wrong. Not at all. In fact, it may be completely accurate. However, the VEI guys are in the position to be able to launch a universe that got me excited about comics once. For me, this isn't about supporting VEI or supporting Jim Shooter or hating both or liking both. For me, this is about reading good comics. At this point, I think VEI may be making a good run toward that.

This.

[wrunow]

I've met Jim Shooter several times now, although I can't say I "know" him personally, but I think the guy is a brilliant writer/editor when things are "right" for him. If any of you remember his panel at Javitz a few years ago when he went through his thought on a couple different comic pages and how they were set up and flowed, we got a look into the his thought process and a real feeling for why he is/was/used to be, so good at what he does.

I think the VEI guys have finally put together a good team with some fresh young "hungry" talent that is appropriate for today's comic market and readers.

The only thing that I will comment about JS is I think when he was in his prime (30's and 40's) when it came to comics he was the smartest guy in the room most of the time, and unfortunately as new generations, techniques, thought processes come into play that changes. Sometimes in business things just don't work out (like the talented chef I fired this week after one week of work), but for some reason with JS, it is always personal, never "his" fault, and he "always" has to belittle and eventually make derogatory comments about the other party. I think this level of "immaturity" has probably why he's where he is today without anything major going on when he really should be moving into the phase of his career where he is revered for his past work like Neal Adams and the other greats of that generation and the young hot guys wanting to work with him so that they could say they collaborated with one of the "legends" of the industry.

[Draco]

I've met Jim Shooter several times now, although I can't say I "know" him personally, but I think the guy is a brilliant writer/editor when things are "right" for him. If any of you remember his panel at Javitz a few years ago when he went through his thought on a couple different comic pages and how they were set up and flowed, we got a look into the his thought process and a real feeling for why he is/was/used to be, so good at what he does.

I think the VEI guys have finally put together a good team with some fresh young "hungry" talent that is appropriate for today's comic market and readers.

The only thing that I will comment about JS is I think when he was in his prime (30's and 40's) when it came to comics he was the smartest guy in the room most of the time, and unfortunately as new generations, techniques, thought processes come into play that changes. Sometimes in business things just don't work out (like the talented chef I fired this week after one week of work), but for some reason with JS, it is always personal, never "his" fault, and he "always" has to belittle and eventually make derogatory comments about the other party. I think this level of "immaturity" has probably why he's where he is today without anything major going on when he really should be moving into the phase of his career where he is revered for his past work like Neal Adams and the other greats of that generation and the young hot guys wanting to work with him so that they could say they collaborated with one of the "legends" of the industry.

Great post dude, great post.

[xodacia81]

I've met Jim Shooter several times now, although I can't say I "know" him personally, but I think the guy is a brilliant writer/editor when things are "right" for him. If any of you remember his panel at Javitz a few years ago when he went through his thought on a couple different comic pages and how they were set up and flowed, we got a look into the his thought process and a real feeling for why he is/was/used to be, so good at what he does.

I think the VEI guys have finally put together a good team with some fresh young "hungry" talent that is appropriate for today's comic market and readers.

The only thing that I will comment about JS is I think when he was in his prime (30's and 40's) when it came to comics he was the smartest guy in the room most of the time, and unfortunately as new generations, techniques, thought processes come into play that changes. Sometimes in business things just don't work out (like the talented chef I fired this week after one week of work), but for some reason with JS, it is always personal, never "his" fault, and he "always" has to belittle and eventually make derogatory comments about the other party. I think this level of "immaturity" has probably why he's where he is today without anything major going on when he really should be moving into the phase of his career where he is revered for his past work like Neal Adams and the other greats of that generation and the young hot guys wanting to work with him so that they could say they collaborated with one of the "legends" of the industry.

Great post dude, great post.

Indeed. Took the words right out of my mouth. WTG Wrunow.