Auction problem advice

[Toefur]

I was wondering if some of the more experienced among you could offer me some advice how to handle an eBay problem I'm currently having. I bought this Harbinger 1 ( eBay Link ) based on it being described as NM. The guy shipped it quick so that's fine, the problem is I wouldn't give the comic a NM rating. The pages and cover are yellowing like around the Valiant logo on the front and the white areas of the ad on the back cover. The staples are semi discolored, and if you open the cover you can see daylight around them. Also the pages were a bit wavy, possibly from humidity. Other than that it looks fine with no rips or tears. It was sent in one of those old hard comic book showcases, that was cracked and damaged. Still I was looking for a NM copy. Maybe I'm grading too hard?

Quoted is our correspondence so far. It reads from bottom up. He obviously doesn't get, or is trying to evade the issue that it's the book that isn't as he described.

I'm just wondering if the more experienced among you have any ideas on what I should negociate? I wouldn't mind keeping the book as I don't have a Harby 1 yet, but I just wouldn't have bid that high if I'd known it wasn't NM.

Dear toefur,

I'm glad you are seeing reason as far as how the elements can affect things. In my listing, I never stated anything about it being graded by the CGC. That process requires a special kind of sealing process which I do not possess although I wish I did. I think you and I both know how rare a comic like Harbinger 1 is. I do not have another that I can send as a replacement. Thank you for your advice about the comic bags with boards. I usually do use those but we don't have a local retailer and shipping is quite expensive to ship to Hawaii. Comics like these are hard to find. Since you made no offer in negotiation, I take it you are accepting the Harbinger 1 as is.


- scorpionlotus



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From: toefur
To: scorpionlotus
Subject: Re: Item I received is not as described: toefur sent a message about Harbinger Issue # 1 #110714229457
Sent Date: Jul-26-11 16:29:07 PDT



Dear scorpionlotus,

Yeah I didn't think about that, once those kind of cases crack they let the air in and it can cause the pages to yellow. And the humidity could cause the staples to discolor and the pages to warp. The yellowing on the ouside on the back cover and around the Valiant logo on the front may be caused by the same process that causes the inner pages to yellow. It's probably not dirt, as I can't really feel anything raised, but it's spotty. It's not white like my other NM books. If you have anymore books in cases like that it would probably be better to put them in a regular bag and board.

As for opening it, I don't know why I wouldn't. It's a simple matter of popping the case open, it's removeable. If the book is advertised as near mint of course I'm going to check and see. It wasn't sealed like CGC does with their cases.

Sorry I'm not usually one to complain, but I was really looking forward to finally getting a NM copy of this book, as I don't have one yet.


- toefur


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From: scorpionlotus
To: toefur
Subject: Re: Item I received is not as described: toefur sent a message about Harbinger Issue # 1 #110714229457
Sent Date: Jul-26-11 15:14:59 PDT


Dear toefur,

I'm sorry you are disappointed. I can't control the humidity where I live. I've never opened it so I don't know what it looked like on the inside. Since you have stated that you opened it, it is no longer in the condition it was in when I sent it to you either (unopened). I know the cover was not loose when I sent it to you or dirty for that matter.

I did state that the plastic case was cracked so naturally elements would eventually take its toll. I did the best I could to keep in in a moisture free environment despite the humidity here. I do state in my listing that if there is a problem with the item it must be returned in the condition it was received for a refund, since you admit to opening it you have voided that option.

Since you admitted to opening I can no longer verify that the item is the one I sent you. I am not a grader and that is not my profession. I bought it and packed it away and never touched it. Time and the elements I have no control over. You did not ask any questions either.

Since you are unsatisfied but admit to opening an item that was unopened and not handled by human hands before you opened it I am willing to negotiate. What are you asking for? I ask you to be reasonable since you opened the item before contacting me.


- scorpionlotus


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From: toefur
To: scorpionlotus
Subject: Item I received is not as described: toefur sent a message about Harbinger Issue # 1 #110714229457
Sent Date: Jul-26-11 13:26:48 PDT


Dear scorpionlotus,

Hi

I received the comic, thanks for the quick shipping. Upon removing it from the hard plastic holder though I am disappointed in its condition. The pages have greatly yellowed, and are almost brown. The book show signs of being subjected too high humidity. The pages are wavy, the back cover is dirty, and the staples are discolored. The cover is also loose and feels like it could come off if not handled well. I think that case that it was in did more damage than good, as I have lots of other comics from that era who still have white pages and lay flat.

Following the Overstreet grading scale it would rank about a VF- or maybe less. Mainly because the front cover does look good and doesn't show many problems.

The problem is I wouldn't have bid that high on a VF or VF- book, I bid thinking that it was NM. As most of my Valiant collection in NM, I'm really only interested in NMish books.


- toefur

[BruceReville]

If you paid via Paypal you can always file a Dispute Claim. From Paypal:

You can open a disputeA buyer asks for a seller's help in resolving an issue with a transaction. in the Resolution CenterLocated in My Account, the PayPal resource for resolving issues between buyers and sellers. to contact a seller directly and resolveA buyer and seller come to an agreement and close the case, or PayPal comes to a decision and closes the case. a problematic transaction. You have 45 days from the payment date to open a dispute. Common reasons for opening a dispute include:

* You paid for an item but haven't received it and the seller is uncooperative or nonresponsive.

* You received an item that was significantly different than described.

Click the Report a Problem button in the Resolution Center to open a dispute. Then, provide more information about the issue and post a message to the seller.

You must wait 7 days to allow for shipping before opening a dispute for an item not received. Transactions older than 45 days cannot be disputed but should still be reported. PayPal tracks seller performance trends in the event we need to take action to protect other buyers.

[Brother J]

His claim about the book not being in the condition it was in when you received it because you removed it from whatever crappy case he had it in is a bunch of bull$hit. It didn't come from Valiant factory sealed in a case! Of course you would take it out and inspect it, the seller should have done the same before selling it and calling it NM. Since he used the grade NM, he should have made sure the book was in that condition.

I have a feeling this guy's going to be a d*ck. I would probably ask him specifically for a full refund and if he doesn't comply, you'll probably have to go the Paypal refund route.

[400yrs]

Ask him to give you a full refund including postage or start a claim wiht Paypal.

The guy can't claim it's in NM condition if he didn't take the book out of the crappy case.

He sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing and I'll take note of that seller's name.

I'd also advise never to sell to nor buy from Hawaii. I've had only 2 bad experiences with shipping and they both involved Hawaii.

[ckb]

If you send it back for a refund I'll match the price and send you a real NM Harbinger 1.

The stuff about it being wavy sounds bad. The stuff on the spine with daylight around the staples isn't good, but typical for H1.

[Johnseye]

If you send it back for a refund I'll match the price and send you a real NM Harbinger 1.

The stuff about it being wavy sounds bad. The stuff on the spine with daylight around the staples isn't good, but typical for H1.

High five CKB. Very cool of you.

[Elveen]

You can ALWAYS get a full refund of the original price and shipping through ebay's buyer protection plan. ALWAYS.

[geocarr]

Of course you would take it out and inspect it, the seller should have done the same before selling it and calling it NM. Since he used the grade NM, he should have made sure the book was in that condition.

I have a feeling this guy's going to be a d*ck. I would probably ask him specifically for a full refund and if he doesn't comply, you'll probably have to go the Paypal refund route.

Absolutely and spot on!

Ask him to give you a full refund including postage or start a claim wiht Paypal.

The guy can't claim it's in NM condition if he didn't take the book out of the crappy case.

I'd also advise never to sell to nor buy from Hawaii.

Ditto.

If you send it back for a refund I'll match the price and send you a real NM Harbinger 1.

Whatta guy! Don't you just love this board?!

1. Do what you have to do through the seller or paypal to get your money back.
2. Stick with buying from the board whenever possible.
3. Keep posting!

Good luck!

[iggy101us]

Don't forget to leave him appropriate feedback.

[StarBrand]

Don't forget to leave him appropriate feedback.

Concur.

[Toefur]

Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of maybe trying to negotiate some money back to what a VF- book would be worth, but I'm not sure what that would be. I think I might just try to get a full refund.

In the past I've mainly bought video games and movies off eBay, only recently have I started buying comic books. I guess when the items value comes down to condition, buying on eBay becomes hit or miss.

[Johnseye]

It is very difficult to buy guaranteed quality books on ebay unless they're slabbed. I bought some Watchmen books claiming to be "mint" I was hoping to slab and while I didn't expect them to be mint I had hoped for at leased NM/NM+ and what I got were a couple that were NM and a lot more that were VF. That was one auction of many.

Many people selling books are either not avid collectors with a discrimination for quality as the buyer or they are just trying to sell their books and need a selling point.

It is even more difficult to get a mint book. Even at an LCS on Wed. one has to sift through a stack of books to find one with no creases or blunted corners. Even then it may not be considered mint or a 9.8+.

Ebay really is a crap shoot.

[Brother J]

Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of maybe trying to negotiate some money back to what a VF- book would be worth, but I'm not sure what that would be. I think I might just try to get a full refund.

In the past I've mainly bought video games and movies off eBay, only recently have I started buying comic books. I guess when the items value comes down to condition, buying on eBay becomes hit or miss.

I would probably want over half of my money back in this case, as I don't believe a VF- copy is worth more than $10, IMO. You're probably better off fighting to get your entire amount back and buying a better copy from ckb, he's offering a pretty good deal.

[Escaflown4]

Pretty much what everyone else says, this is a classic example of a horrible seller. I'll remember to avoid any of his auctions. Toefur, at this point, I would recommend with moving forward with filing a Significantly Not as Described case with PayPal to get your full refund. Base on this seller's response, I doubt he will work with you on a satisfactory solution.

[BloodShot]

Pretty much what everyone else says, this is a classic example of a horrible seller. I'll remember to avoid any of his auctions. Toefur, at this point, I would recommend with moving forward with filing a Significantly Not as Described case with PayPal to get your full refund. Base on this seller's response, I doubt he will work with you on a satisfactory solution.

Exactly.

Lots of good advice here, and pretty much everthing I would've told you if I had seen this earlier. But, just to be clear, you can file a complaint OR a dispute either through PayPal OR directly through eBay. The major difference is eBay expects (or at least recommends) discussion amongst the buyer and seller, then they make their determination. PayPal will accept inputs from both, but it's a MUCH faster turn-around, especially as far as your refund since they automatically put a hold on the funds that went to the seller. Really not sure of why the difference in methods since eBay actually owns PayPal .

Anyway, if you're truly unhappy with what you purchased, do NOT feel like you're stuck with it or have to offer the seller a way out of the sale. Regardless of the fact he likely put "NO returns accepted" is completely worthless as far as eBay's Buyer Protection Plan is concerned.

This clown shoe clearly has no clue how to grade comics and that line about you having removed the book from the holder he put it in "voids" anything or makes the book suspect is absolute horse *SQUEE* .

[Toefur]

Ok just sent him a message asking for a refund. Guess we'll see what happens.

Dear scorpionlotus,

I just brought up CGC as an example of a sealed case. The case that held the Harbinger 1 wasn't anything special that guarantees that a comic is in a certain condition, it's just a hard snap together case. It's the same as if the comic was in a bag/board, ziploc bag, paper envelope, whatever. It doesn't matter what the comic was sent in, a buyer would open it up to check the condition, as you should have done first before stating that it was NM.

While trying to figure out what to do I talked to some "experts", one of which said that a VF- Harbinger 1 would only be worth about $10. Which is probably what I would bid, if I would have even bothered to bid.

At this point it would probably be easiest just to get a refund, as the item received wasn't as the listing stated, and move on.

You could probably re-list it, leave off the NM grading and get about the same if not more from someone who isn't expecting a NM comic.

- toefur

The last bit is a little shady, and not something I'd do, but maybe the idea will help him be more willing to work with me.

If this doesn't work, then I'll try the PayPal route.

Thanks again!

[Brother J]

Ok just sent him a message asking for a refund. Guess we'll see what happens.

Dear scorpionlotus,

I just brought up CGC as an example of a sealed case. The case that held the Harbinger 1 wasn't anything special that guarantees that a comic is in a certain condition, it's just a hard snap together case. It's the same as if the comic was in a bag/board, ziploc bag, paper envelope, whatever. It doesn't matter what the comic was sent in, a buyer would open it up to check the condition, as you should have done first before stating that it was NM.

While trying to figure out what to do I talked to some "experts", one of which said that a VF- Harbinger 1 would only be worth about $10. Which is probably what I would bid, if I would have even bothered to bid.

At this point it would probably be easiest just to get a refund, as the item received wasn't as the listing stated, and move on.

You could probably re-list it, leave off the NM grading and get about the same if not more from someone who isn't expecting a NM comic.

- toefur

The last bit is a little shady, and not something I'd do, but maybe the idea will help him be more willing to work with me.

If this doesn't work, then I'll try the PayPal route.

Thanks again!

Good e-mail, thanks for calling me an "expert"!

Actually, I don't think it would be be shady if he re-listed and left off the grade, it's obvious he can't grade (in this case I don't think he even tried to grade), so he would probably be better off not assigning a grade. If he doesn't mention a grade, most people will assume it's not a high grade copy.

I had a seller who sold me a "VF" that had rusty staples, stains and creases, and insisted up and down after I returned it that his grading was accurate, he even relisted it recently with the same "VF" grade. Luckily, I have already warned many of those (on another board) who would likely bid on the auction.

[IMJ]

Reading that guy's reply about his phony warranty nonsense *SQUEE* me off beyond belief. To itemize why this was foolish on so many levels would just *SQUEE* me off even more.

And how did he claim a book was near mint when in the same message he states that he never took the book out of the sleeve? Jackass.

[wokuya]

I've been both buyer and seller on eBay for several years and only had a handful of bad experiences. Sounds like you hit one of the bad ones. I say stick to your guns!

[stp1503]

I don't know if anybody noticed but the seller said he never opened the case but in the description he says the coupon insert was still there!! How would he know that the coupon was there? More ammo for your dispute!!

[Toefur]

I'm thinking he bought it at a flea market or something where the guy sold him on the idea that it was sealed away never touched by human hands. He seems stuck on that point.

His latest response:

Dear toefur,

Ok I already said I am not a grader so how about you forget about quoting me all the grading razzle dazzle. I never said it was graded in the listing to begin with! I also stated NM in the context that it was never touched by human hands until you did. My NM listing was inaccurate but I also stated to you that I never opened it so it was NM when it went in the case. Being that the case was cracked the elements then took it's toll over the years which I can't prevent. I am sorry that you are not happy with the condition of the item. I wish I had a replacement to send you but I do not. I'm trying to resolve this in favor of both parties and I feel like you're not willing to do so, by all the rules, guidelines, and whatnot that you keep quoting. I know you feel misled by the listing. I feel like I'm in the gunsights so to speak with all the grading lingo that you quote. So how about we be adults about this as I think we both went about this the wrong way.

I don't fault you for opening it to inspect it but please keep in mind that I never did open it and did the best I could to protect it. I also apologize for getting defensive. I'd like to leave you positive feedback (provided you do the same) if we can work to a mutually satisfied resolution. I don't like leaving negative feedback and I never had to nor do I want to start now. I will refund you approximately half the price of what you paid minus the cost of shipping. How does a $15.00 refund sound? I think that is more than fair. Do you think that can turn this positive for both of us?

- scorpionlotus

Grading Razzle Dazzle?

[comicsyte95]

Grading Razzle Dazzle.

[400yrs]

I'm thinking he bought it at a flea market or something where the guy sold him on the idea that it was sealed away never touched by human hands. He seems stuck on that point.

His latest response:

Dear toefur,

Ok I already said I am not a grader so how about you forget about quoting me all the grading razzle dazzle. I never said it was graded in the listing to begin with! I also stated NM in the context that it was never touched by human hands until you did. My NM listing was inaccurate but I also stated to you that I never opened it so it was NM when it went in the case. Being that the case was cracked the elements then took it's toll over the years which I can't prevent. I am sorry that you are not happy with the condition of the item. I wish I had a replacement to send you but I do not. I'm trying to resolve this in favor of both parties and I feel like you're not willing to do so, by all the rules, guidelines, and whatnot that you keep quoting. I know you feel misled by the listing. I feel like I'm in the gunsights so to speak with all the grading lingo that you quote. So how about we be adults about this as I think we both went about this the wrong way.

I don't fault you for opening it to inspect it but please keep in mind that I never did open it and did the best I could to protect it. I also apologize for getting defensive. I'd like to leave you positive feedback (provided you do the same) if we can work to a mutually satisfied resolution. I don't like leaving negative feedback and I never had to nor do I want to start now. I will refund you approximately half the price of what you paid minus the cost of shipping. How does a $15.00 refund sound? I think that is more than fair. Do you think that can turn this positive for both of us?

- scorpionlotus

Grading Razzle Dazzle?

A few things:

As a seller, he can't give you a negative. That's a fairly new ebay thing. Don't let that threat influence your opinion.

$15 + $5 for shipping is too much for this book, imo. If you are happy with it, great. If not, start a claim with paypal.

The problem here is that he thinks you are trying to rip him off somehow, because he sold something that he has no clue about. Unfortunately, you are going to get the shaft if you leave it up to him.

[ckb]

I think the new eBay / paypal rules are that if you send it back to him he has to give you a refund regardless of any of his stated policies.

[BloodShot]

I think the new eBay / paypal rules are that if you send it back to him he has to give you a refund regardless of any of his stated policies.

Absolutely true. And that'd be a full refund including shipping. BUT, make absolutely sure you do this through eBay (i.e., not on your own with just the buyer's word ), or you could be out double your money .

And, FWIW, screw this guy. Each response he's given, he's become more and more of a jack-hole in my eyes, and some of his excuses are just downright nonsensical. File a claim through eBay (or PayPal); get your refund; don't look back; just keep movin' forward .