V-H-3?

[wrunow]

I don't wish to rain on the relaunch parade, and I really hope that it succeeds, but I was thinking that if Dark Horse and Shooter couldn't sell a respectable number of books with the core three Gold Key/Valiant Heroes, (Magnus, Solar, and Turok), then how does Dino and company hope to sell respectable numbers on the secondary line of characters? Just sayin'. When they print them I'll buy them though and give them a chance.

That's just it. The characters owned by VEI are not a "Secondary" line, if only because Solar, Magnus and Turok-as done at Dark Horse-were in no way related to what went on 20 years ago or what will happen next year. Were Turok, Magnus and Solar 3 high-profile books in the day? Yep. Were they the "first tier"? It's arguable, along with XO, Bloodshot/Rai, Harbinger, EW/A&A and Shadowman. The "secondary line" would be pretty much everyone else. I think a line centered around the books I mentioned above, augmented by a select few others, would have as good a chance as any.

The other thing to consider is the measurement of success in the current market is different from what it used to be. The rubric has changed and it's not going to reverse itself any time soon.

All I was saying is that if a reboot of the three core characters of the original Valiant Universe were not successful, then I shudder to think of what the sales numbers would be like on VEI's relaunch going forward. I live in PA and stood outside the Comic Swap in State College, PA, and asked about 500 customers after the news of Valiant's relaunch had been released how they felt about the news. I was met with gazes similar to those of a deer staring at the headlights of an oncoming vehicle. Most I spoke to did not know what I was talking about or did not seem to care. The few who did remember the original Valiant line stated that if Magnus and Solar were not involved they were not interested.

I just have a few things to comment here.

First, Shooter's work on Steel Nation, Alpha and Omega, and probably Children of the Eighth Day was done in his prime as a creator and is probably the best work of his career and probably better than any of the stuff that Stan Lee did in the 60's. I think that most people who work for someone else or a large company or something always have a plan in the back of their mind that "if this was mine, and I didn't have to justify my methods and means to a boss, this is how I would do it". Those stories and how they were marketed were that for Shooter. A lot of fans expected stories on that level with DH, and in my opinion, because the stories were just "good" they walked away. I think hiring Shooter was a mistake by DH personally, and, VEI is and was better off without him, the legacy, and the overblown epectations for his work. Also, he didn't have Layton and BWS there to watch his back as far as the artwork was concerned. After seeing the DH art, I don't think we can underestimate that. These guys were the perfect creative team for comic fans born in 60's and 70's, not so much today as the 13-25 yo comic fan has been raised with "Image" style art.

Secondly, once VALIANT hit it's stride, Harbinger, XO, EW, A+A, and maybe Shadowman were the equal or better than Solar and Magnus. I personally wasn't a big Magnus fan, but I liked Solar a lot. When you really think of it, VEI rebooting their own original characters now has more in common with what Shooter did with the GK characters in 1991 than what Shooter tried to do with DH this year. I think the VALIANT characters are as good or better than the GK characters at this time and there's a lot more of a cohesive group of titles to work with vs. just a bunch of old characters that have been rebooted, reread, and reprinted for years in one way or another. There's room in the market for a start up by young guys with fresh ideas and new contemporary stories to tell .

[dhudson1]

I still say the biggest reason the GK revival did not work had little to do with art and story, and more to do with the lateness of the books. O way to build momentum.

[400yrs]

When the first valiant comic comes out, I need to be listening to the 4-5 podcasts I listen to and hearing HYPE and EXCITEMENT, not "it's aiiight", which is what GK got.

Our first taste of VALIANT? *SQUEE* better be going down.

Hell, I don't think the Only The Valiant guys even talked about the GK books for more than 15 minutes. That tells you there is no excitement when a podcast focused on Valiant didn't even bother to talk about them and probably didn't even read all of them.

I agree with wrunow's comments about Jim Shooter. He needed the other guys to make appealing comics.

[xodacia81]

I don't wish to rain on the relaunch parade, and I really hope that it succeeds, but I was thinking that if Dark Horse and Shooter couldn't sell a respectable number of books with the core three Gold Key/Valiant Heroes, (Magnus, Solar, and Turok), then how does Dino and company hope to sell respectable numbers on the secondary line of characters? Just sayin'. When they print them I'll buy them though and give them a chance.

That's just it. The characters owned by VEI are not a "Secondary" line, if only because Solar, Magnus and Turok-as done at Dark Horse-were in no way related to what went on 20 years ago or what will happen next year. Were Turok, Magnus and Solar 3 high-profile books in the day? Yep. Were they the "first tier"? It's arguable, along with XO, Bloodshot/Rai, Harbinger, EW/A&A and Shadowman. The "secondary line" would be pretty much everyone else. I think a line centered around the books I mentioned above, augmented by a select few others, would have as good a chance as any.

The other thing to consider is the measurement of success in the current market is different from what it used to be. The rubric has changed and it's not going to reverse itself any time soon.

It will come down to a few things. How well the books are marketed or publicized and the quality of the art and stories. If those things are done right then Valiant can build momentum again.

If and when that happens they need to keep things consistent, build stamina for a long essentially never ending story line. Oh and not sell themselves to a video game company.

Also, remember that Valiant is not Dark Horse. The branding or image of a comic book is a very powerful thing. Valiant has a good foundation as a brand to build from. It doesn't matter what characters are brought back, it's how they are presented that will determine if they have mass market appeal.

Yep and that's why I care mainly about seeing the books they make, come out not only on time, but with appealing artwork and, more importantly, appealing, thought provoking, entertaining and involving stories. The Dark Horse line of Gold Key properties never managed that. I hope VEI can.

[xodacia81]

I don't wish to rain on the relaunch parade, and I really hope that it succeeds, but I was thinking that if Dark Horse and Shooter couldn't sell a respectable number of books with the core three Gold Key/Valiant Heroes, (Magnus, Solar, and Turok), then how does Dino and company hope to sell respectable numbers on the secondary line of characters? Just sayin'. When they print them I'll buy them though and give them a chance.

That's just it. The characters owned by VEI are not a "Secondary" line, if only because Solar, Magnus and Turok-as done at Dark Horse-were in no way related to what went on 20 years ago or what will happen next year. Were Turok, Magnus and Solar 3 high-profile books in the day? Yep. Were they the "first tier"? It's arguable, along with XO, Bloodshot/Rai, Harbinger, EW/A&A and Shadowman. The "secondary line" would be pretty much everyone else. I think a line centered around the books I mentioned above, augmented by a select few others, would have as good a chance as any.

The other thing to consider is the measurement of success in the current market is different from what it used to be. The rubric has changed and it's not going to reverse itself any time soon.

All I was saying is that if a reboot of the three core characters of the original Valiant Universe were not successful, then I shudder to think of what the sales numbers would be like on VEI's relaunch going forward. I live in PA and stood outside the Comic Swap in State College, PA, and asked about 500 customers after the news of Valiant's relaunch had been released how they felt about the news. I was met with gazes similar to those of a deer staring at the headlights of an oncoming vehicle. Most I spoke to did not know what I was talking about or did not seem to care. The few who did remember the original Valiant line stated that if Magnus and Solar were not involved they were not interested.

I just have a few things to comment here.

First, Shooter's work on Steel Nation, Alpha and Omega, and probably Children of the Eighth Day was done in his prime as a creator and is probably the best work of his career and probably better than any of the stuff that Stan Lee did in the 60's. I think that most people who work for someone else or a large company or something always have a plan in the back of their mind that "if this was mine, and I didn't have to justify my methods and means to a boss, this is how I would do it". Those stories and how they were marketed were that for Shooter. A lot of fans expected stories on that level with DH, and in my opinion, because the stories were just "good" they walked away. I think hiring Shooter was a mistake by DH personally, and, VEI is and was better off without him, the legacy, and the overblown epectations for his work. Also, he didn't have Layton and BWS there to watch his back as far as the artwork was concerned. After seeing the DH art, I don't think we can underestimate that. These guys were the perfect creative team for comic fans born in 60's and 70's, not so much today as the 13-25 yo comic fan has been raised with "Image" style art.

Secondly, once VALIANT hit it's stride, Harbinger, XO, EW, A+A, and maybe Shadowman were the equal or better than Solar and Magnus. I personally wasn't a big Magnus fan, but I liked Solar a lot. When you really think of it, VEI rebooting their own original characters now has more in common with what Shooter did with the GK characters in 1991 than what Shooter tried to do with DH this year. I think the VALIANT characters are as good or better than the GK characters at this time and there's a lot more of a cohesive group of titles to work with vs. just a bunch of old characters that have been rebooted, reread, and reprinted for years in one way or another. There's room in the market for a start up by young guys with fresh ideas and new contemporary stories to tell .

Yep. Your second paragraph, particularly the parts about rebooting, are spot on. It doesn't matter about which "level" is brought back, but rather HOW it is done.

[xodacia81]

I don't wish to rain on the relaunch parade, and I really hope that it succeeds, but I was thinking that if Dark Horse and Shooter couldn't sell a respectable number of books with the core three Gold Key/Valiant Heroes, (Magnus, Solar, and Turok), then how does Dino and company hope to sell respectable numbers on the secondary line of characters? Just sayin'. When they print them I'll buy them though and give them a chance.

That's just it. The characters owned by VEI are not a "Secondary" line, if only because Solar, Magnus and Turok-as done at Dark Horse-were in no way related to what went on 20 years ago or what will happen next year. Were Turok, Magnus and Solar 3 high-profile books in the day? Yep. Were they the "first tier"? It's arguable, along with XO, Bloodshot/Rai, Harbinger, EW/A&A and Shadowman. The "secondary line" would be pretty much everyone else. I think a line centered around the books I mentioned above, augmented by a select few others, would have as good a chance as any.

The other thing to consider is the measurement of success in the current market is different from what it used to be. The rubric has changed and it's not going to reverse itself any time soon.

All I was saying is that if a reboot of the three core characters of the original Valiant Universe were not successful, then I shudder to think of what the sales numbers would be like on VEI's relaunch going forward. I live in PA and stood outside the Comic Swap in State College, PA, and asked about 500 customers after the news of Valiant's relaunch had been released how they felt about the news. I was met with gazes similar to those of a deer staring at the headlights of an oncoming vehicle. Most I spoke to did not know what I was talking about or did not seem to care. The few who did remember the original Valiant line stated that if Magnus and Solar were not involved they were not interested.

You're always going to find character-specific fanboys/girls that are like that. I will say, again, that the challenge for VEI is finding a way of marketing these characters in the current climate. Dark Horse failed with the Gold Key launch. Can VEI succeed with the return of the Valiant Universe? I think if they do it right, they have a chance, even in this very unpredictable and down market. My guess is it will be a small, successful niche. Unless the reboots over at DC and/or Marvel *SQUEE* of the fans and they go looking for another Universe

[sbcomics]

I don't wish to rain on the relaunch parade, and I really hope that it succeeds, but I was thinking that if Dark Horse and Shooter couldn't sell a respectable number of books with the core three Gold Key/Valiant Heroes, (Magnus, Solar, and Turok), then how does Dino and company hope to sell respectable numbers on the secondary line of characters? Just sayin'. When they print them I'll buy them though and give them a chance.

That's just it. The characters owned by VEI are not a "Secondary" line, if only because Solar, Magnus and Turok-as done at Dark Horse-were in no way related to what went on 20 years ago or what will happen next year. Were Turok, Magnus and Solar 3 high-profile books in the day? Yep. Were they the "first tier"? It's arguable, along with XO, Bloodshot/Rai, Harbinger, EW/A&A and Shadowman. The "secondary line" would be pretty much everyone else. I think a line centered around the books I mentioned above, augmented by a select few others, would have as good a chance as any.

The other thing to consider is the measurement of success in the current market is different from what it used to be. The rubric has changed and it's not going to reverse itself any time soon.

All I was saying is that if a reboot of the three core characters of the original Valiant Universe were not successful, then I shudder to think of what the sales numbers would be like on VEI's relaunch going forward. I live in PA and stood outside the Comic Swap in State College, PA, and asked about 500 customers after the news of Valiant's relaunch had been released how they felt about the news. I was met with gazes similar to those of a deer staring at the headlights of an oncoming vehicle. Most I spoke to did not know what I was talking about or did not seem to care. The few who did remember the original Valiant line stated that if Magnus and Solar were not involved they were not interested.

How long did you have to stand there for 500 people to come in?

[raymondsolar]

Throughout the day. This is the only comic book shop in State College, PA proper. State College, PA is home to Penn State University. You may have heard of it.

[400yrs]

500 people in one day? That's a busy comic shop.

[cplsimon]

500 people in one day? That's a busy comic shop.

500 sure. Ok. For what reason? Why stand outside? If you were to want an honest representation of how people felt about the relaunch, why would you not maintain a record of your data. I mean you stood outside for what had to have been many many hours/ days/ weeks. Why for what? It might have been plausible if he would have said 50 on a good day for most shops.

[raymondsolar]

If you were/are familiar with Penn State University (it is one of the largest college universities in the USA) and its enrollment numbers and campus size 500 customers in a day isn't much at all.

[400yrs]

If you were/are familiar with Penn State University (it is one of the largest college universities in the USA) and its enrollment numbers and campus size 500 customers in a day isn't much at all.

Sure, Penn State is huge at about 50K peeps. So 1% of the total student body went to that particular comic shop on that day that you were there? I find it hard to believe that 1% of the students there are comic fans, much less went to that shop on that day.

Did you bring an umbrella to stand under? Did you pack a lunch? What kind of juice box did you sip on?

Please provide scans of your data with the 500+ people who were comic fans at PSU on that day at that shop who didn't know what Valiant was.

Maybe people just didn't want to talk to you because they thought you were a whack job for standing outside a comic shop all day harrassing everyone who walked in about a dead universe? Maybe they thought you were a stalker or something?

What did everyone have to say when you did the same thing after the news of the DC reboot and you stood outside and harassed people about that?

[Blood of Heroes]

[raymondsolar]

If you were/are familiar with Penn State University (it is one of the largest college universities in the USA) and its enrollment numbers and campus size 500 customers in a day isn't much at all.

Sure, Penn State is huge at about 50K peeps. So 1% of the total student body went to that particular comic shop on that day that you were there? I find it hard to believe that 1% of the students there are comic fans, much less went to that shop on that day.

Did you bring an umbrella to stand under? Did you pack a lunch? What kind of juice box did you sip on?

Please provide scans of your data with the 500+ people who were comic fans at PSU on that day at that shop who didn't know what Valiant was.

Maybe people just didn't want to talk to you because they thought you were a whack job for standing outside a comic shop all day harrassing everyone who walked in about a dead universe? Maybe they thought you were a stalker or something?

What did everyone have to say when you did the same thing after the news of the DC reboot and you stood outside and harassed people about that?

If you're looking for a flame war mate, it ain't happnin'. I said what I had to say and you can believe it or leave it. Your choice, not mine. Bye!

[cplsimon]

What's a "flame war mate"? Sounds kinky.

[cplsimon]

If you were/are familiar with Penn State University (it is one of the largest college universities in the USA) and its enrollment numbers and campus size 500 customers in a day isn't much at all.

Sure, Penn State is huge at about 50K peeps. So 1% of the total student body went to that particular comic shop on that day that you were there? I find it hard to believe that 1% of the students there are comic fans, much less went to that shop on that day.

Did you bring an umbrella to stand under? Did you pack a lunch? What kind of juice box did you sip on?

Please provide scans of your data with the 500+ people who were comic fans at PSU on that day at that shop who didn't know what Valiant was.

Maybe people just didn't want to talk to you because they thought you were a whack job for standing outside a comic shop all day harrassing everyone who walked in about a dead universe? Maybe they thought you were a stalker or something?

What did everyone have to say when you did the same thing after the news of the DC reboot and you stood outside and harassed people about that?

If you're looking for a flame war mate, it ain't happnin'. I said what I had to say and you can believe it or leave it. Your choice, not mine. Bye!

Sorry for busting your balls, but you have to admit its kinda a d!ck move coming on the valiant fan website, with a stated opinion, which is not extremely popular on this site. Then using an obvious glaring outright lie, yep I said it, to backup your facts. No one has issue with your opinion. But don't lie to make yourself look better or more legitimate.

We all know VEI has a hard road ahead, but let's not try to kill them before they start with lies. Look if you have an opinion state it, and people on this site will debate it fairly. Don't make sh!t up, then get mad when people call you on it.

Just my OPINION.

[greg]

Ungraduates attending Penn State would have been somewhere
between 3 and 7 years old when Valiant was last seen...
and they may not have even been born when Valiant was popular.

If I interviewed a bunch of toddlers about Bill Clinton...
it would have about the same "scientific" value.

ANYTHING (no matter how "dead" it is) can be popular again if it's done correctly.
Hugh Jackman is starring in a big budget movie based on Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots.

I doubt if anyone attending Penn State has played with those, either.

[400yrs]

If you're looking for a flame war mate, it ain't happnin'. I said what I had to say and you can believe it or leave it. Your choice, not mine. Bye!

You speak a lot of poop. I'd just like some specifics on this day when you camped out and bothered a bunch of people walking into a store. If you work at that store, that's another thing I guess.


BTW, Why do you edit out all of your past posts and erase them?

Your posts remind me of a former member who was blind and went rock climbing at night.

[Blood of Heroes]

Hugh Jackman is starring in a big budget movie based on Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots.

Kinda like a modern day version of Over the Top?

[greg]

Hugh Jackman is starring in a big budget movie based on Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots.

Kinda like a modern day version of Over the Top?

...with Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots.

[Johnseye]

Are there any other comparable situations where a comic book company has come back from the grave? I don't mean titles cause we all know about Solar, Magnus, etc. I mean a company. None as big as Valiant was for sure.

What would happen if Marvel or DC disappeared for 20 years then re-emerged again. How would they re-build?

[sbcomics]

Throughout the day. This is the only comic book shop in State College, PA proper. State College, PA is home to Penn State University. You may have heard of it.

What's the name of the shop?