slabbing - why or why not? AND has it hurt the hobby?

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:14 am

aggr1103 wrote:Finally coming to terms with my slabbing frustrations. It took some pm's from folks who shared my anger towards the snobbery of grading to help me get centered about the issue.

The majority of the grading snobs focus on modern tier comics, which through slabbing provides them inflated value. A 9.8 comic that came out this month is really just worth cover price and not more. All the slab does is inflate its value. Eventually, in my opinion, this bubble will burst on modern tier 9.8's. I think more modern cgc submissions will focus on signature series as a justifiable means of increasing a modern comics value.

I still believe that if a comic means something to you and you want it encapsulated - slab it. No matter the age.

As far as golden and silver age comics, I believe slabbing provides legit accuracy of grade for sale and trade, as well as assists in determining its value against other issues sold.

I like this post. Personally I really like slabbing and the creation of cgc overall. Though I tend to take issue with a few books i've seen in the upper 8.0-9.4's but generally I like their grading. But most importantly I got out of the hobby for awhile as I was disgusted with being ripped off by greedy dealers that instantly inflated grades the second they bought them. Just got tired of it really. Now things are much more consistent. I collect mainly silver age high dollar comics so the difference can mean a lot of green. The creation of CGC saved the hobby for me and I'm once again buying books. Those that don't like CGC just never got totally ripped off by some greedy dealers I guess.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:21 am

I'm not sure why my name is mentioned here...

Most of the posts are from July 2010, and I did reply a few times already.

maraxusofkeld · Post by **maraxusofkeld** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:02 pm

I think it's a great service when you actually want the book in the grade you pay for. When I look at raw Bronze/Silver books I purchased from ebay, I can honestly say none of them were accurately graded.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:02 pm

Jay Tomio wrote:
greg wrote:I'm not sure why my name is mentioned here...

Most of the posts are from July 2010, and I did reply a few times already.

It just seemed the type of grossly inaccurate or ill perceived type of information you'd usually smack down.

I've given up on teaching people anything.

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:15 pm

maraxusofkeld wrote:I think it's a great service when you actually want the book in the grade you pay for. When I look at raw Bronze/Silver books I purchased from ebay, I can honestly say none of them were accurately graded.

I feel your pain. I think cgc does a fantastic job giving the medium an overall normalcy toward grading. Especially when dealing with books in the mid fine to upper very fine range and especially with bronze age books. These books are a little harder to grade since they have a better eye appeal than their grades indicate.

steverino · Post by **steverino** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:06 pm

I can't help but feel the possibility that CGC has hurt the hobby. I think that instead of spending money on books and helping the comic shops, comic collectors are now spending money on a 'guarantee'. A guarantee that a certain comic is of a certain quality. Though that guarantee can, at times, be misleading, it is still trusted by most. A 9.6 that is labelled a 9.8 is still valued at a 9.8 and the buyer has made a good investment as long as the casing is never cracked and given to a grader who is more strict.

While I think this money could be better spent helping the industry. I honestly have never wanted or needed to have a 'slabbed' book. I've always enjoyed the feeling that the book gave me just holding it in my hands. You can't really get that feeling while the book encased in hard plastic, locked away from even you less you crack it and forfeit your investment.

I just enjoy a good comic.

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:33 am

steverino wrote:I can't help but feel the possibility that CGC has hurt the hobby. I think that instead of spending money on books and helping the comic shops, comic collectors are now spending money on a 'guarantee'. A guarantee that a certain comic is of a certain quality. Though that guarantee can, at times, be misleading, it is still trusted by most. A 9.6 that is labelled a 9.8 is still valued at a 9.8 and the buyer has made a good investment as long as the casing is never cracked and given to a grader who is more strict.

While I think this money could be better spent helping the industry. I honestly have never wanted or needed to have a 'slabbed' book. I've always enjoyed the feeling that the book gave me just holding it in my hands. You can't really get that feeling while the book encased in hard plastic, locked away from even you less you crack it and forfeit your investment.

I just enjoy a good comic.

Well actually a cracked case doesn't necessarily get re-graded anyway. You can submit a cracked case and get a new one without any risk of the grade being lowered unless it has been so damaged that it obviously affected the book. Secondly if someone really understands cgc it's not a guarantee of anything other than you can be rest assured it's complete and unrestored in a universal holder although I'm sure someday they'll even miss that one. The one thing cgc does give us is an unbias opinion of a grade. And that is why it's so popular, it's a third party grading service with no financial bias into each and every book they grade and I for one realy appreciate that alone. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with their grades once in awhile too but I'm also quite sure that when they are wrong their pretty close. Next, if you only like their service for grading purposes only you are certainly welcome to crack that baby out of the case and hold it in your hands. Surely I'm not the only one who ever thought of doing that. LOL Anyway I like collecting comics and have always felt like I deserve the respect of the people I buy from to get what I pay for and now finally I can be rest assured that I am getting what I pay for or at least really close.

steverino · Post by **steverino** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:45 am

Jay Tomio wrote:
steverino wrote:I can't help but feel the possibility that CGC has hurt the hobby. I think that instead of spending money on books and helping the comic shops, comic collectors are now spending money on a 'guarantee'. A guarantee that a certain comic is of a certain quality. Though that guarantee can, at times, be misleading, it is still trusted by most. A 9.6 that is labelled a 9.8 is still valued at a 9.8 and the buyer has made a good investment as long as the casing is never cracked and given to a grader who is more strict.

While I think this money could be better spent helping the industry. I honestly have never wanted or needed to have a 'slabbed' book. I've always enjoyed the feeling that the book gave me just holding it in my hands. You can't really get that feeling while the book encased in hard plastic, locked away from even you less you crack it and forfeit your investment.

I just enjoy a good comic.
I don't think people appreciate the level at which people were getting ripped off, and second people ALWAYS looked for HG comics--well before CGC was ever even dreamed about. CGC has nothing to do with people buying at a shop or not. CGC does not sell comic books. People buy comics from EBAY, all CGC did was grow the potential of that market and in the process probably saved the backissue market. The LCS was dead or dying WAY before CGC came into play and really has zero effect on an LCS that I can see beyond establishing a standard that allows for people looking for high grade books to acquire them and not be ripped of by shop owners who can't grade, many of whom were well documented outright crooks. CGC doesn't have a brick/mortar stores across the street from traditional LCS's competing. The LCS could not compete with a larger and public market in the information age.

The comic industry went to *SQUEE* before CGC ever came on the scene. Hell, you can blame VALIANT more than CGC.

Why would anyone - besides fairly unique individuals - want to help a comic shop anyway? It's a broken model that can't compete with other alternatives like a DCBS etc. It's illogical (though not the subject of this thread).

Nobody (new) goes to comic book shops. CGC didn't make that happen

I agree, CGC did come along after the greatest rise in comics popularity ever, but there where still many great books coming out and the industry was still strong. I also understand the need to have a certain book within a certain grade. Of course, you're paying for it too.

I see many a person getting books RAW and then submitting it so that they can get a high grades and sell the book for far more than they paid for it. This may have also led to the pressing of books, which can give a book a higher grade than it originally deserved. Pressing is considered 'cheating' and 'restoration' and is not detectable by CGC. This is causing much animosity among CGC collectors.

I think that pressing is okay considering the new market and believe that it should be disclosed whenever necessary for proper business conduct.

I personally don't want any part in this. I'm a collector, but I could care less if my Spawn 1 is 9.8 or 8.0. I just think that CGC is not helping the industry at large and, in many cases, takes away from the original joy of collecting.

Of course, there's no way I'm 100% correct and and gladly admit that many collectors do take pride and joy from CGC comics.

tmcneil82 · Post by **tmcneil82** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:29 am

steverino wrote: I personally don't want any part in this. I'm a collector, but I could care less if my Spawn 1 is 9.8 or 8.0.

But Rino, thats like a 200% value increase? I mean, a Spawn 1 in 9.8 is worth somewhere near .50!

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:02 am

steverino wrote:
Jay Tomio wrote:
steverino wrote:I can't help but feel the possibility that CGC has hurt the hobby. I think that instead of spending money on books and helping the comic shops, comic collectors are now spending money on a 'guarantee'. A guarantee that a certain comic is of a certain quality. Though that guarantee can, at times, be misleading, it is still trusted by most. A 9.6 that is labelled a 9.8 is still valued at a 9.8 and the buyer has made a good investment as long as the casing is never cracked and given to a grader who is more strict.

While I think this money could be better spent helping the industry. I honestly have never wanted or needed to have a 'slabbed' book. I've always enjoyed the feeling that the book gave me just holding it in my hands. You can't really get that feeling while the book encased in hard plastic, locked away from even you less you crack it and forfeit your investment.

I just enjoy a good comic.
I don't think people appreciate the level at which people were getting ripped off, and second people ALWAYS looked for HG comics--well before CGC was ever even dreamed about. CGC has nothing to do with people buying at a shop or not. CGC does not sell comic books. People buy comics from EBAY, all CGC did was grow the potential of that market and in the process probably saved the backissue market. The LCS was dead or dying WAY before CGC came into play and really has zero effect on an LCS that I can see beyond establishing a standard that allows for people looking for high grade books to acquire them and not be ripped of by shop owners who can't grade, many of whom were well documented outright crooks. CGC doesn't have a brick/mortar stores across the street from traditional LCS's competing. The LCS could not compete with a larger and public market in the information age.

The comic industry went to *SQUEE* before CGC ever came on the scene. Hell, you can blame VALIANT more than CGC.

Why would anyone - besides fairly unique individuals - want to help a comic shop anyway? It's a broken model that can't compete with other alternatives like a DCBS etc. It's illogical (though not the subject of this thread).

Nobody (new) goes to comic book shops. CGC didn't make that happen
I agree, CGC did come along after the greatest rise in comics popularity ever, but there where still many great books coming out and the industry was still strong. I also understand the need to have a certain book within a certain grade. Of course, you're paying for it too.

I see many a person getting books RAW and then submitting it so that they can get a high grades and sell the book for far more than they paid for it. This may have also led to the pressing of books, which can give a book a higher grade than it originally deserved. Pressing is considered 'cheating' and 'restoration' and is not detectable by CGC. This is causing much animosity among CGC collectors.

I think that pressing is okay considering the new market and believe that it should be disclosed whenever necessary for proper business conduct.

I personally don't want any part in this. I'm a collector, but I could care less if my Spawn 1 is 9.8 or 8.0. I just think that CGC is not helping the industry at large and, in many cases, takes away from the original joy of collecting.

Of course, there's no way I'm 100% correct and and gladly admit that many collectors do take pride and joy from CGC comics.

Oh man you hit the nail on the head there about pressing. OMG i hate that one. Pressing needs to stop for sure. I really don't want pressed books in my collection and avoid buying them whenever possible. I like the fact that some dealers disclose pressing, it gives me a reason to pass on a book. And I have my own psychotic methods for trying to guess that a book has been pressed and if I think it has, I pass on that book. Pressing is cheating and it is restoration imho I totally agree.

But the way I look at it is that before cgc dealers simply raised the grade arbitrarily and charged more for the book than it warrants and now they try to find books that can be raised by methods. Either way it's still crazy people trying to get more for a book than it deserves. It's still a better industry as a whole with cgc than without it.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:30 am

1) - pressing is resto
2) - CGC books in 9.6 grade usually go for about what raw does in most cases. Below that grade level, you can get great deals (like my early 120s Uncanny X-Men that raw in "NM" would have sold for $35-40, I got in CGC 9.2 for $17 - shipped.) Only the 9.8s and above sell for a premium and those people have money to burn anyways. I don't think CGC has taken away any business from the comic industry, on the contrary - it has brought more recognition to the hobby. Unfortunately, most of that attention came from unscrupulous BSDs and people like Danny Cupcake (or Dupecok, or whatever that a$$hole's name is.)

-slym

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:56 am

slym2none wrote:1) - pressing is resto
2) - CGC books in 9.6 grade usually go for about what raw does in most cases. Below that grade level, you can get great deals (like my early 120s Uncanny X-Men that raw in "NM" would have sold for $35-40, I got in CGC 9.2 for $17 - shipped.) Only the 9.8s and above sell for a premium and those people have money to burn anyways. I don't think CGC has taken away any business from the comic industry, on the contrary - it has brought more recognition to the hobby. Unfortunately, most of that attention came from unscrupulous BSDs and people like Danny Cupcake (or Dupecok, or whatever that a$$hole's name is.)

-slym

Hey thx for the info on dupecak, I've been reading all about this guy on the net. WOW I really never knew someone would still trim books these days and scam like it were 1980. Anyway not sure how much you know about this guy but is he the one that use to run those phone auctions in CBG back in the early-mid 90's?

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:36 pm

puffdoggy wrote:
slym2none wrote:1) - pressing is resto
2) - CGC books in 9.6 grade usually go for about what raw does in most cases. Below that grade level, you can get great deals (like my early 120s Uncanny X-Men that raw in "NM" would have sold for $35-40, I got in CGC 9.2 for $17 - shipped.) Only the 9.8s and above sell for a premium and those people have money to burn anyways. I don't think CGC has taken away any business from the comic industry, on the contrary - it has brought more recognition to the hobby. Unfortunately, most of that attention came from unscrupulous BSDs and people like Danny Cupcake (or Dupecok, or whatever that a$$hole's name is.)

-slym
Hey thx for the info on dupecak, I've been reading all about this guy on the net. WOW I really never knew someone would still trim books these days and scam like it were 1980. Anyway not sure how much you know about this guy but is he the one that use to run those phone auctions in CBG back in the early-mid 90's?

I am not sure, but between the CGC boards and STL Comics' forum, there is plenty of info out there on him.

Also, read up on PGX, that 'other' grading company, while you're at it.

-slym

steverino · Post by **steverino** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:30 pm

Um.. I'm not too sure that pressing is resto, but it is a concern to many. It is not detectable, regardless. We need to remember that it's only human to want more bang for your buck and pressing is a way to get that. With no way to detect it, there's no deterrent to help stop it.

On the bright side, pressing may actually help the book in the long run. A flatter book lets in less air between it's pages and probably has less moisture which would slow down it's degradation.

So let's not feel too bad about pressing.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:46 pm

puffdoggy wrote: Anyway not sure how much you know about this guy but is he the one that use to run those phone auctions in CBG back in the early-mid 90's?

He's "Fantasia" (or "Fantazia") comics by mail if you check old 1980s-1990s comic ads (and old Overstreets).

He's been ripping people off forever. He's "robojo33" on eBay.

Want to pay $18,000 for a RAW (secretly trimmed and color-touched) comic? He's your guy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0593817493

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:07 pm

greg wrote:
puffdoggy wrote: Anyway not sure how much you know about this guy but is he the one that use to run those phone auctions in CBG back in the early-mid 90's?
He's "Fantasia" (or "Fantazia") comics by mail if you check old 1980s-1990s comic ads (and old Overstreets).

He's been ripping people off forever. He's "robojo33" on eBay.

Want to pay $18,000 for a RAW (secretly trimmed and color-touched) comic? He's your guy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0593817493

LOL you know I think I saw that comic awhile back. I instantly said my god why wouldn't he just send the ****en thing in and get it graded!! Too funny and yeah i saw his ID on e-bay on another forum just today but thanks for clueing me in. I've only bought a few books on e-bay anyway but I do like to browse. It's simply unnaceptable (imho) not to have extremely valuable books graded by cgc ahead of selling them. I wouldn't touch that book with a ten meter cattle prod.

I really can't remeber the dealer that tried a big scam on me back in '94 but I know it was with a phone auction in cbg. Lucky for me I bought the books w/a credit card and they handled the scam for me and I never actually got taken for any money. But the guy tried a poorly restored asm #1 put together hap-hazardly with a cover and seperate inside pages and called it VG+ It was comical at best.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:31 pm

Hmmmmmmm, i was kinda expecting more from this thread if i'm honest.

Maybe it started out so badly that most of the CGC guys here just thought *SQUEE* it I can't be arsed to interact here. A bit like most of the threads i start

When i first saw CGC back in the day i had mixed feelings and as it took longer to hit over here in the UK as with most things collectible that start with you guys, i guess i let it slip off the radar, Also despite having a store from 1999 to 2005, i still paid little attention till i came here in 2007 for some much needed CGC education.

So most of what i know i have learned in the last 3 to 4 years to be honest.
The first Valiant books i ever bought were Unity # 0 red in CGC 9.2 for $22 and EW # 1 GOLD embossed CGC 9.2 for $12.
Funny really as i was looking for the best prices and the slabbed ones in the lower grades came out in the lead, thus proving what Maraxus said about the books in lower grades selling less than raw copies of same grade

Since then i have only touched CGC 9.8 and most of them are nonsense bargains off the back of large sales where the ones i bought no one gave two *SQUEE* about, or madness like the punx CGC 9.8 set i got from Caxiotis i think for silly money, cheers dude.

Anyway onto the part about good or bad then

Yes i thought it was bad to begin with, but that was mainly due to the nonsense of the new market books being slabbed etc.
I love the idea of being able to buy an old book that has been scrutinized by someone who knows every single angle regarding the correct procedure of grading a comic book, though the extra cost is of course a bit of a put off

I still havent personally sent books in, but have many that need it.
Id say my grading is spot on, but im lacking the tech in terms of lighting etc and so wouldnt swear my 9.8 is 9.8, but would be unhappy with anything short of 9.6 if i say 9.8 if you get my drift.

I have heard many negative things about CGC, but they are heavily outweighed by the positive.

I still think modern books graded and at crazy high prices it BS, but if you have pre 90's books in stunning condition that have anything about them other than being part of an average run, i'e 1st app, HTF, last issues etc, then how can it not help to have a professional opinion for $20ish bucks, going up of course for older books etc.

I dont subscribe to them having a bad effect on stores, as like Jay said. the store back issue thing had died long before CGC came about, they only helped IMO. The wall displays would look a lot nicer with a row of classy CGC books on them that's for sure, especially seeing as how much stores have neglected back issues over the slew of shiney new product, CGC fit in quite nicely on that front.

I think that's covered everything i wanted to say.

Oh yeah, people that are trying to rip others of using CGC as a tool, well *SQUEE* them, they exist everywhere, CGC arent responsible for them rearing their ugly heads, just another outlet amongst the many.

maraxusofkeld · Post by **maraxusofkeld** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:13 pm

I think some of the problem have with CGC is that they exponentially raised the price of certain books. In 1998/1999 you could have a Hulk 181 NM for what under $500. When CGC hit the scene, now the book becomes $2000+ depending on page qaulity, centering, coloring, etc.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:37 pm

maraxusofkeld wrote:I think some of the problem have with CGC is that they exponentially raised the price of certain books. In 1998/1999 you could have a Hulk 181 NM for what under $500. When CGC hit the scene, now the book becomes $2000+ depending on page qaulity, centering, coloring, etc.

I recall certain books getting a bit mad, but at the same time there are so many of those keys that you just have to be patient, it's not like they are the 1st Usaji, so im cool with greedy bastcihes trying to get that bit extra, i just wont bite

I got asked for some advice from an old friend who isn't any good at taking advice so you can see where this story is going.
he had some dollar to blow on a good comics or comics, but wanted a Giant Size X-men # 1 slabbed.
My advice was do not buy these books at less then 9.4, just dont look at them as you are better of getting a raw book.
Of course my simple advice went unheeded and he spent £750 on a lower grade.
I cant recall if it was 9.0 but lesson learned.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:38 pm

maraxusofkeld wrote:I think some of the problem have with CGC is that they exponentially raised the price of certain books. In 1998/1999 you could have a Hulk 181 NM for what under $500. When CGC hit the scene, now the book becomes $2000+ depending on page qaulity, centering, coloring, etc.

The biggest difference is the confidence factor.

A Hulk 181 NM that is trimmed and/or color-touched is essentially worthless.

How much of the full $2,000 are you willing to risk if there's a CHANCE it's a restored book?

$500 sounds about right.

How much of the full $2,000 are you willing to risk if the book has been examined and encapsulated by independent third-party experts?

$2,000 sounds about right.

What's the difference? The biggest difference is that in 1998/1999, only the first scenario really existed.

maraxusofkeld · Post by **maraxusofkeld** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:42 pm

Well, I am not saying that I have a problem with them. I am glad because I would have never been able to get a nice raw copy as I do not go to a lot of shows.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:44 pm

maraxusofkeld wrote:Well, I am not saying that I have a problem with them. I am glad because I would have never been able to get a nice raw copy as I do not go to a lot of shows.

Same here... I don't go to many shows...
Most dealers are (understandably) looking to cover their table/travel costs.

I'd much rather buy a slabbed book online... and usually do.

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:34 pm

Jay Tomio wrote:For the record, I'm am much bigger fan of raw copies from sellers I trust. I have no true desire to own CGC copies but I also have no qualms buying them if another opportunity doesn't present itself.

And that's a fine way to approach things now. I know a local dealer that's a very strict grader and a fine gentleman as well and I have no problem buying raw comics from him. The problem is of course he rarely has the books I'm looking for. He just doesn't pay enough for books to attract high grade keys into his shop. Same problem I've had for years. Now back in the early 90's we had a shop that the guy was an insanely strict grader and I absolutely loved buying books from him but the same problem. High grade keys rarely made it into his shop.

The thing that I love about cgc now is that I can finally go into the open national market and find the books I'm looking for and rely on the grade. Personally it's working out fantastic for me. I think it's worked out great for a lot of people all over that didn't live in metropolis and hence some price increases.

puffdoggy · Post by **puffdoggy** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:59 pm

maraxusofkeld wrote:I think some of the problem have with CGC is that they exponentially raised the price of certain books. In 1998/1999 you could have a Hulk 181 NM for what under $500. When CGC hit the scene, now the book becomes $2000+ depending on page qaulity, centering, coloring, etc.

I have a personal theory regarding this price increase. For one thing when you bought a NM book like Hulk 181 back in the 90's I'm not so sure we would actually get a NM book. I recently purchased a Hulk 181 in cgc 9.0 and really feel like it's just as nice as the same book I would have paid top dollar for before cgc came along. I paid extra for it ($1350) because I really wanted it to replace the copy I sold in 1998. I'm not sure it's as nice as that one but it's close. On the other hand I got an incredible score on a book that was selling at heritage for $5000+ in 2004 and 2005 for $1675. So some books were selling at ridiculous prices 5 years ago have settled nicely in the market today. So alot of it depends on the book and Hulk 181 is a poor example of the market overall because Wolverine is still smokin hot. Because of the movies or whatever reason. And now have you seen that 9.9 copy at comiclink $150,000. lol I can't imagine ever seeing an asking price that high for that book but sure enough there it is.

maraxusofkeld · Post by **maraxusofkeld** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:59 pm

That does make sense, and well Wolverine is essentially the most popular Marvel character behind Spiderman so I think it's a book that will just *SQUEE* the bed as people will always want to buy it.