New direction for Valiant

[hulk181man]

So more of a Vertigo feel? Interesting...

[Knightt]

I think if Valiant could go 'forward' that would be a good direction. Yeah, thats a pretty solid movement (I even think I said that last night a few hours after eating my wife's lasagna dinner).

Seriously, I think Valiant could go with the type of stories that were told back in the early 90s BUT, may have to ramp it up a bit for modern times and that would mean bolder stories. THAT is where Jim Shooter's take on this would have been a very welcome addition as he is clever enough to be freaky and still put it under the comics code.

I think it would take some very clever writing but you also have to consider that Valiant is not writing to 'us', there are younger people out there enjoying comics as well. So, who is your baseline customer ? Who is going to buy more ? Are people going to buy for the stories or for the collectibility or for the nostalgic reasons of old (thats what, 90 of us ).

Like I wrote in my VERY first post, a couple of crashes and a 'delete ALL my posts' ago... VALIANT had a kind of magic when it wrote stories, lets hope VEI can do the same.

[Knightt]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

[hulk181man]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

I agree, that was a good read -- the point should be to make entertaining stories. I don't believe strict continuity is a necessity, make it interesting and I'm there

[Unblessed]

Something full of rainbows and unicorns and lepruchauns and sparkles and glitter and cookies and candy and slides and pie and cake and...



Nah. It's going to be like screaming in the vacuum of space.



I would hope it would be full of rise and fall, rage and grace. More on the rise, fall, and rage parts.

[depluto]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

[400yrs]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with VH2. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

[xodacia81]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with *Acclaim (1997 series)*. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

[Unblessed]

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

That light?

Oh that's the train. WOOO WOOO!

[400yrs]

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

That light?

Oh that's the train. WOOO WOOO!

C'mon ride the train, the choo choo train!

[wrunow]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with *Acclaim (1997 series)*. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

I think if some of you guys remember the panels a few years ago in NYC when Jeff Gomez commented on the fact that when he was at Acclaim and they hired all the big name writers no one kept them in line and they paid these guys (I won't name names) both artists and writers for much less than their best work. At the time the comments from the guys who were brought up at VALIANT were not very kind because they allowed the big name guys to write and draw in styles they were never allowed emulate, or even try.

Also if anyone remembers Gomez's comments about Shooter and Unity 2000, it wasn't very pretty.

[xodacia81]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with *Acclaim (1997 series)*. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

I think if some of you guys remember the panels a few years ago in NYC when Jeff Gomez commented on the fact that when he was at Acclaim and they hired all the big name writers no one kept them in line and they paid these guys (I won't name names) both artists and writers for much less than their best work. At the time the comments from the guys who were brought up at VALIANT were not very kind because they allowed the big name guys to write and draw in styles they were never allowed emulate, or even try.

Also if anyone remembers Gomez's comments about Shooter and Unity 2000, it wasn't very pretty.

When I say talent, I don't mean "oh, look at me, I'm talented" in "Rob I don't have a brain" Lefeld way. I mean TALENT, as in "I've never heard of this person, but damn can they draw/write". You know, sort of like what we got with Valiant back in the day.

[wrunow]

I am sure to be beat about the head and shoulders for this one and then depluto is going to walk up and shoot me point blank in the chest with his Nintendo Wii controller, TWICE.

But when Marvel's The Ultimates came out (a re-telling of the Avengers story) it got me back into buying new comics, reading new comics and I really enjoyed the story. It was just an updated Avengers story and I enjoyed it.

If done something like that, IN MY OPINION... that is something I would like to read and hopefully enjoy.

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with *Acclaim (1997 series)*. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

I think if some of you guys remember the panels a few years ago in NYC when Jeff Gomez commented on the fact that when he was at Acclaim and they hired all the big name writers no one kept them in line and they paid these guys (I won't name names) both artists and writers for much less than their best work. At the time the comments from the guys who were brought up at VALIANT were not very kind because they allowed the big name guys to write and draw in styles they were never allowed emulate, or even try.

Also if anyone remembers Gomez's comments about Shooter and Unity 2000, it wasn't very pretty.

When I say talent, I don't mean "oh, look at me, I'm talented" in "Rob I don't have a brain" Lefeld way. I mean TALENT, as in "I've never heard of this person, but damn can they draw/write". You know, sort of like what we got with Valiant back in the day.

I agree, but unfortunately the way things are done mostly by free lance artists and writers nowadays, the editors job is even more important cause these guys don't see eachother face to face anymore on a daily basis. At the old VALIANT it was sort of based on the old Marvel Bullpen style of production. Shooter, BWS, Layton, Moretti, and the young guys were all in the office together. When one of the young guys did something that didn't look right to Shooter, he could send BWS in to help the guy out and show him how to do it the correct way or how they wanted it. That's a pretty nice luxury to have from a management standpoint.

[xodacia81]

That's actually pretty close to what I was thinking.

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with *Acclaim (1997 series)*. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

I think if some of you guys remember the panels a few years ago in NYC when Jeff Gomez commented on the fact that when he was at Acclaim and they hired all the big name writers no one kept them in line and they paid these guys (I won't name names) both artists and writers for much less than their best work. At the time the comments from the guys who were brought up at VALIANT were not very kind because they allowed the big name guys to write and draw in styles they were never allowed emulate, or even try.

Also if anyone remembers Gomez's comments about Shooter and Unity 2000, it wasn't very pretty.

When I say talent, I don't mean "oh, look at me, I'm talented" in "Rob I don't have a brain" Lefeld way. I mean TALENT, as in "I've never heard of this person, but damn can they draw/write". You know, sort of like what we got with Valiant back in the day.

I agree, but unfortunately the way things are done mostly by free lance artists and writers nowadays, the editors job is even more important cause these guys don't see eachother face to face anymore on a daily basis. At the old VALIANT it was sort of based on the old Marvel Bullpen style of production. Shooter, BWS, Layton, Moretti, and the young guys were all in the office together. When one of the young guys did something that didn't look right to Shooter, he could send BWS in to help the guy out and show him how to do it the correct way or how they wanted it. That's a pretty nice luxury to have from a management standpoint.

That is good but once again, not what I meant. What I meant was that I want quality people at each position. I don't want to have the "hot name" and I don't want to get sold a bill of a goods. I want to have people who have talent working on every aspect of the book. I want a solid editor to bring together a writer and artist who compliment each other. I want the design of the book to be appealing. I want the colors to be as far from garish as possible and I want the letters to be easy to read and yet have maybe just a little flair when needed. The last time I think we'll ever see a "knob row" type deal is what happened at Cross Gen, and even then, that was nothing like Valiant and Alesi was a monster from everything I've read about him. No, what I want is to match talent to book. I want somebody who gets the characters and stories and can tell them properly, name be dammned. If it is Joe Blow from Pesteno or Neil Gaiman, I don't care. I want to see a person who has the ability to tell the story be on the book. Name doesn't matter. Only ability. Only the talent to tell a story well. If they are new, good. If they are veterans, fine. It shouldn't matter. Just get somebody good to write and draw these things.

[wrunow]

Agreed here too. Fresh, edgy, modern with fresh art.. Something like Ultimatizing the characters would accomplish making the books more realistic / adult oriented while still being very much accessible to younger readers.

If the books continue on like the 8 new story pages in the back of the HCs, I don't see it working out. I could be wrong, but the comic market is so much different now.

The tricky thing is that this was kind of already tried with *Acclaim (1997 series)*. And those were some of the best writers in the industry and that flopped.

I know I'm a negative Nancy, I just ain't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

I think if some of you guys remember the panels a few years ago in NYC when Jeff Gomez commented on the fact that when he was at Acclaim and they hired all the big name writers no one kept them in line and they paid these guys (I won't name names) both artists and writers for much less than their best work. At the time the comments from the guys who were brought up at VALIANT were not very kind because they allowed the big name guys to write and draw in styles they were never allowed emulate, or even try.

Also if anyone remembers Gomez's comments about Shooter and Unity 2000, it wasn't very pretty.

When I say talent, I don't mean "oh, look at me, I'm talented" in "Rob I don't have a brain" Lefeld way. I mean TALENT, as in "I've never heard of this person, but damn can they draw/write". You know, sort of like what we got with Valiant back in the day.

I agree, but unfortunately the way things are done mostly by free lance artists and writers nowadays, the editors job is even more important cause these guys don't see eachother face to face anymore on a daily basis. At the old VALIANT it was sort of based on the old Marvel Bullpen style of production. Shooter, BWS, Layton, Moretti, and the young guys were all in the office together. When one of the young guys did something that didn't look right to Shooter, he could send BWS in to help the guy out and show him how to do it the correct way or how they wanted it. That's a pretty nice luxury to have from a management standpoint.

That is good but once again, not what I meant. What I meant was that I want quality people at each position. I don't want to have the "hot name" and I don't want to get sold a bill of a goods. I want to have people who have talent working on every aspect of the book. I want a solid editor to bring together a writer and artist who compliment each other. I want the design of the book to be appealing. I want the colors to be as far from garish as possible and I want the letters to be easy to read and yet have maybe just a little flair when needed. The last time I think we'll ever see a "knob row" type deal is what happened at Cross Gen, and even then, that was nothing like Valiant and Alesi was a monster from everything I've read about him. No, what I want is to match talent to book. I want somebody who gets the characters and stories and can tell them properly, name be dammned. If it is Joe Blow from Pesteno or Neil Gaiman, I don't care. I want to see a person who has the ability to tell the story be on the book. Name doesn't matter. Only ability. Only the talent to tell a story well. If they are new, good. If they are veterans, fine. It shouldn't matter. Just get somebody good to write and draw these things.

Well, hopefully when you hear how this thing is put together you'll be happy. I can tell you this, these guys won't be able to afford "name" talent per say, at least I don't think so. I think the agressive talented young guy approach with strong editorial support will be the way to go for them.

[xodacia81]

I think it is better to do it right than to do it "big and bold" just for the sake of big and bold. Acclaim flopped because it wasn't very good, for the most part, and it was shoved down people's throats by perhaps the most arrogant EIC in the history of comics. I think a "serious" reboot of Valiant might not be a bad thing, depending on who is in charge of the books and I don't mean names. I meant talent.

I think if some of you guys remember the panels a few years ago in NYC when Jeff Gomez commented on the fact that when he was at Acclaim and they hired all the big name writers no one kept them in line and they paid these guys (I won't name names) both artists and writers for much less than their best work. At the time the comments from the guys who were brought up at VALIANT were not very kind because they allowed the big name guys to write and draw in styles they were never allowed emulate, or even try.

Also if anyone remembers Gomez's comments about Shooter and Unity 2000, it wasn't very pretty.

When I say talent, I don't mean "oh, look at me, I'm talented" in "Rob I don't have a brain" Lefeld way. I mean TALENT, as in "I've never heard of this person, but damn can they draw/write". You know, sort of like what we got with Valiant back in the day.

I agree, but unfortunately the way things are done mostly by free lance artists and writers nowadays, the editors job is even more important cause these guys don't see eachother face to face anymore on a daily basis. At the old VALIANT it was sort of based on the old Marvel Bullpen style of production. Shooter, BWS, Layton, Moretti, and the young guys were all in the office together. When one of the young guys did something that didn't look right to Shooter, he could send BWS in to help the guy out and show him how to do it the correct way or how they wanted it. That's a pretty nice luxury to have from a management standpoint.

That is good but once again, not what I meant. What I meant was that I want quality people at each position. I don't want to have the "hot name" and I don't want to get sold a bill of a goods. I want to have people who have talent working on every aspect of the book. I want a solid editor to bring together a writer and artist who compliment each other. I want the design of the book to be appealing. I want the colors to be as far from garish as possible and I want the letters to be easy to read and yet have maybe just a little flair when needed. The last time I think we'll ever see a "knob row" type deal is what happened at Cross Gen, and even then, that was nothing like Valiant and Alesi was a monster from everything I've read about him. No, what I want is to match talent to book. I want somebody who gets the characters and stories and can tell them properly, name be dammned. If it is Joe Blow from Pesteno or Neil Gaiman, I don't care. I want to see a person who has the ability to tell the story be on the book. Name doesn't matter. Only ability. Only the talent to tell a story well. If they are new, good. If they are veterans, fine. It shouldn't matter. Just get somebody good to write and draw these things.

Well, hopefully when you hear how this thing is put together you'll be happy. I can tell you this, these guys won't be able to afford "name" talent per say, at least I don't think so. I think the agressive talented young guy approach with strong editorial support will be the way to go for them.

That's what I'm hoping for, because in comics, it has usually been the best way to go. It worked once before. Will it work again? Time will tell. I hope it does, because I think it is the right path. Oh, and of course, because I should be the next writer for XO.

[IanAlexavier]

I think the aggressive talented young guy approach with strong editorial support will be the way to go for them.

[ian_house]

I think the aggressive talented young guy approach with strong editorial support will be the way to go for them.

So much easier said than done though.

[Knob]

Erica Pierce's character dealt with pretty mature themes for a comic book, especially in the early 90s.

Both her own character and the disturbed relationship she had with her perpetually teenage son.

[Daniel Jackson]

Erica Pierce's character dealt with pretty mature themes for a comic book, especially in the early 90s.

Both her own character and the disturbed relationship she had with her perpetually teenage son.

I know Jim wanted to show us why Erica was so messed up, but I always wondered what was going through his mind when he dreamed up that part.

[IanAlexavier]

Erica Pierce's character dealt with pretty mature themes for a comic book, especially in the early 90s.

Both her own character and the disturbed relationship she had with her perpetually teenage son.

I know Jim wanted to show us why Erica was so messed up, but I always wondered what was going through his mind when he dreamed up that part.

It was odd... not sure where he was going with it. This situation and Archers abusive parents, and a few of the images in A&A were too edgy for me. Seems as though the story could have been told a little differently.

[superman-prime]

not sure it was way out there with albert

[xodacia81]

Erica Pierce's character dealt with pretty mature themes for a comic book, especially in the early 90s.

Both her own character and the disturbed relationship she had with her perpetually teenage son.

I know Jim wanted to show us why Erica was so messed up, but I always wondered what was going through his mind when he dreamed up that part.

It was odd... not sure where he was going with it. This situation and Archers abusive parents, and a few of the images in A&A were too edgy for me. Seems as though the story could have been told a little differently.

I think both stories were told in ways that showed just enough that you cringed because of how creepy-twisted they were instead of from any sort of gratuitousness.

[dave]

Hey don't forget Shadowman. There were some serious creepy moments there as well. Darque peeling Buck's brain? A finger in the eyeball? That clown's head exploding (which I think was in EW)

Shadowman had some mature themes too-to the point where I steered my kids away from that title.

[Knightt]

And all that weird stuff that Valiant touched upon ? That is what drew me to Valiant... it was done in a very clever way.