Valiant without Gold Key

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:01 pm

Just a thought to those wondering how they can do the Valiant universe without the Gold Key characters wether it's a continuation of VH-1 or a "new universe" that resembles it:

The Valiant Universe wasn't really built around them (continuity wise atleast). Go back and read Rai 0 (the road map to VH-1). Skip all the parts involving Gold Key characters. Did the story still make sense? Yup. Was 85% of Rai 0 still intact? You bet.

Side Note: Could this have been because it was planned this way? Is it possible that they were cautious about using them in Rai 0 because they might not might have the rights to the characters so many years into the future? After 1999 their's only one scene with a Gold Key character in it (Gail's death) and that happens in private away from any "historic" events.

So Valiant will be okay without them. I loved them. I'll miss them. It was neat having the fantastic things in VH-1 caused by Solar subconsciously altering the universe (and mulitverse) but it was hardly nessesary for all the characters to be there (it was first mentioned a year and half after they started publishing and only mentioned, what, maybe 4 times in the entire existance of Valiant?).

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:19 pm

In my op, Rai 0 was created to turn Solar's VALIANT universe into Magnus' VALIANT universe, so in my op those two are what hold Rai 0 together.

davidb · Post by **davidb** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:03 pm

It could very well be. I've noticed that a lot of the Valiant writers planned for the future. From what I've read of the ends of VH1 books, just about every writer (except Layton on X-O) had a plan in mind to bring the book back - even going back to the end of Archer & Armstrong in Chaos Effect. Unless of course that's just coincidence, in which case I'm

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:08 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:In my op, Rai 0 was created to turn Solar's VALIANT universe into Magnus' VALIANT universe, so in my op those two are what hold Rai 0 together.

On a practical level, yes, that's why it was done. Ofcourse, on a practical level the Valiant "Universe" was intially published because they needed to put more than two titles to cover their overhead. Times have changed.

I still think there is a possibility that they foresaw the very situation we're in now (were the Valiant might loose the rights to the Gold Key characters) and that's why they appear so little in Rai 0. Take the prudence of those who came before you and build on it. Especially when you have no choice in the matter

.

redskindavyd · Post by **redskindavyd** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:36 pm

It will take a bit of work and creative storytelling, but I am certain that it can be done & done well!

graybola · Post by **graybola** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:06 pm

From some of the other posts it would seem like JT can use the characters specific to Valiant. So, couldnt he use the Destroyer, also Gayle (Not Gale from the Old Solar. I dont have any of the gold key, but if Phil from Valiant wasnt Solar in Gold key then they could use him as well. It wouldnt be the same, but there could be some form of Solar.

Also, doesnt Solar disappear for a few thousand years. A Unity type event could change everything. Or something simple as Solar changing the valiant universe so that it has people with powers.

I never cared for Turok, so I dont care if he comes back, but I am sure some sort of American Indian storyline could bring him back with a new name(Sort of)

I will miss the Valiant versions, but JT maybe able to come up with something just as good or possibly even better.

Rai 0 is just an outline of what is supposed to happen. I am sure a storyline could be written that could explain the changes I mentioned above.
Change is not always bad

davidb · Post by **davidb** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:25 pm

This brings up something else I'd thought of - couldn't the Acclaim Turok be retconned into VH1, just dropping the Turok name? It seems like the actual Turok name was all that was tying that into the Gold Key Turok.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:21 pm

Keep in mind,
The GoldKey characters were not the best Valiant titles.

Do we realy need them?

I say no.......

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:58 pm

jedimarley wrote:Keep in mind,
The GoldKey characters were not the best Valiant titles.

Do we realy need them?

I say no.......

I'm going to agree with you here... but you will have to pay respects to solar and turok, who would seem to have interacted with our other characters. its a big hole if you bring back a&a and don't even make mention of turok.

don't forget about lulu.

SolarFan777 · Post by **SolarFan777** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:58 pm

jedimarley wrote:Keep in mind,
The GoldKey characters were not the best Valiant titles.

Do we realy need them?

I say no.......

I would like to think Solar was a great part of VH1. Not every issue but the early story lines in many titles tied into Solar and with good results IMO.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:12 pm

jedimarley wrote:Keep in mind,
The GoldKey characters were not the best Valiant titles.

Do we realy need them?

I say no.......

Wow, I would definitely have to disagree that the Gold Key characters were not the best Valiant titles. The way they handled Turok..maybe, but Magnus and Solar were top notch and spawned some very good reads along the way. Anyone remember Solar 1-10 or Magnus 1-8 for starters?

If John could somehow get the rights to use the Gold Key characters, I for one would be thrilled.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:14 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
jedimarley wrote:Keep in mind,
The GoldKey characters were not the best Valiant titles.

Do we realy need them?

I say no.......

Wow, I would definitely have to disagree that the Gold Key characters were not the best Valiant titles. The way they handled Turok..maybe, but Magnus and Solar were top notch and spawned some very good reads along the way. Anyone remember Solar 1-10 or Magnus 1-8 for starters?

If John could somehow get the rights to use the Gold Key characters, I for one would be thrilled.

I think they're looking at those series as a whole. Shooter's suff with the characters was great but once you get to Valiant's third or fourth year (and beyond) those books become all but unreadable in my opinion. Both Solar and Magnus seemed to have greatly deminished power and importance the minute Shooter's plots ran out.

In all honesty those characters brought Valiant some much needed attention in its earliest days but those series were always hard sales when the hype wasn't there. The company will make a lot more publishing X-O or Bloodshot but, who knows? If they make enough money maybe Taddeo will be able to afford a Valiant "reunion"

.

whetteon · Post by **whetteon** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:36 pm

I like the idea of mention the characters but not necessarily showing them. Like the Angel/Buffy relationship. The immortal brothers are definitely the way to connect the universe without Solar. Magnus was awesome but he connected the characters in the future. Unless they want to revive rai I'd say the future is not really that important now. So sure, they can do Valiant without the major three Gold Key characters if they plan the execution well. Enter Bob and Jim.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:40 pm

I might miss Solar and Magnus....
a little.

But Turok, PLEASE......

Strannik · Post by **Strannik** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:27 pm

The Valiant Universe wasn't really built around them (continuity wise atleast).

Oh really?

Let's forget for a second that Solar created Valiant Universe (well, re-created it from scraps of his original universe, but that's besides the point). That part is easy enough to ignore.

However...

Solar's battle against Spider-Aliens directly led to events in X-O Manowar #1 and not-so-directly to the events of Harbinger #3. X-O Manowar, in turn, led directly to the events of Shadowman #1.

Without Magnus's and Solar's involvement in Spider-Alien invasion of 4001, Spider-Aliens would have conquered Earth, Japan would of never rose into the sky, Grandmother would have never left Japan and Kazuyo probably would've never gotten her armor. Come to think about it, without Magnus, pretty much the entire Rai series would have unfolded very differently.

Without Turok, there would have been no Lost Land. Without Solar, there never would have been Erica Pierce. This means that Unity would have never happened. Without it, Rai would never die, Kris would've gave birth to Magnus in 1991, effectively eliminating Magnus from existance and thus severely altering all the future titles. Jack would never find out that he would die in 1999, which means that pretty much the entire Shadowman series would have turned out very diffrently. No Unity also meant that Geoff wouldn't find out about Project Rising Spirit, thus affectively eliminating the Bloodshot series. Without Unity, Gilad's history would also be altered, albeit slightly.

justin · Post by **justin** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:50 pm

Welcome to the boards Strannik! Nice thinking on the matter and you bring up very valid points!

-A

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:53 pm

I hope John hires some GOOD writers to straighten this out.

Strannik · Post by **Strannik** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:27 pm

architect wrote:Welcome to the boards Strannik! Nice thinking on the matter and you bring up very valid points!

-A

Thank you, it's good to be here.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:30 pm

Strannik wrote:
The Valiant Universe wasn't really built around them (continuity wise atleast).

Oh really?

Let's forget for a second that Solar created Valiant Universe (well, re-created it from scraps of his original universe, but that's besides the point). That part is easy enough to ignore.

However...

Solar's battle against Spider-Aliens directly led to events in X-O Manowar #1 and not-so-directly to the events of Harbinger #3. X-O Manowar, in turn, led directly to the events of Shadowman #1.

Without Magnus's and Solar's involvement in Spider-Alien invasion of 4001, Spider-Aliens would have conquered Earth, Japan would of never rose into the sky, Grandmother would have never left Japan and Kazuyo probably would've never gotten her armor. Come to think about it, without Magnus, pretty much the entire Rai series would have unfolded very differently.

Without Turok, there would have been no Lost Land. Without Solar, there never would have been Erica Pierce. This means that Unity would have never happened. Without it, Rai would never die, Kris would've gave birth to Magnus in 1991, effectively eliminating Magnus from existance and thus severely altering all the future titles. Jack would never find out that he would die in 1999, which means that pretty much the entire Shadowman series would have turned out very diffrently. No Unity also meant that Geoff wouldn't find out about Project Rising Spirit, thus affectively eliminating the Bloodshot series. Without Unity, Gilad's history would also be altered, albeit slightly.

I'm sure you know from the rest of my post that I was refering to the Gold Key characters not being so heavily involved in Valiant's future that Rai 0 would fall apart without them and that if you published a comic right now in Valiant continuity you wouldn't have to mention Solar or Turok (or have them appear) in the story to make it work. Even if Valiant doesn't own them, their's no reason the stories they were in wouldn't exist or couldn't be flashed back to without refering specifically to those characters (this was how a scene in Rai & the FF made the events of Magnus vs. Predator part of Valiant continuity)

Ofcourse a reboot will probably end up making all this a moot point.

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:48 pm

Well, if Jim came back (which he won't), he could get the rights back. Didn't he get them in the first place because the company liked him so much?

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:25 am

andrew wrote:Well, if Jim came back (which he won't), he could get the rights back. Didn't he get them in the first place because the company liked him so much?

I think there are ways to get Jim back into the fold, I'm not sure if it'ld help in that respect though. The company that owned the characters changed hands and went bankrupt so I'm not sure if the same people would still be there. Anyone know if Richard Bernstein is still with the company and what the status of the company itself is?