Valiant vs. Shooter - COURT DOCUMENT

[magnusr]

If (and it is a big if) there was no signed contract, can a (non-?)employee be held to such fiduciary duty?

Accepting a payment holds you to your duties as much as a contract - however, with a contract it is much easier to say exactly what the duties are.

Anyway, this whole mess is extremely saddening.

/Magnus

[cjv]

They do state as fact that they were working to create comic books.

Clearly, posts on message boards stating that they are working on that are not enough.

A legal document that states that they are, signed and sworn to be true is not enough either?

They also state that Jim Shooter had full benefits, something that has been disputed already if we are to believe the post ascribed to Janet Jackson.

Thus legal documents are no more a certain source of facts than anything else. What those documents serves as is a set of allegations, no more really.

Presumably they will have tax documents showing his pay, showing his benefits, etc (if there were any).

[StarBrand]

I would think Dark Horse strongly considered the possibility of this suit being filed when they signed Jim to launch their Gold Key properties...

[cjv]

This is something JJ has been saying - that Jim's heath coverage was screwed up. It doesn't pass the smell test for me. He either had coverage or he didn't. If he goes to VEI and says he's having trouble with his coverage, and they say "tough cookies", well that's something. If he goes to the doctor and they tell him they cannot confirm his coverage and it's a PITA to get it worked out, that's life.

"screwed up" can be a lot of different things, a lot of mistakes at any number of levels. Doctor/insurance company, patient/doctors, insurance company/patient, insurance company/employer, employer/patient, etc. If could also include something as simple as him going to a doctor he thought was included in the plan but wasn't.

As I said, there should be tax documents that detail medical benefits that were paid for, salary, etc.

Chris

[leonmallett]

They do state as fact that they were working to create comic books.

Clearly, posts on message boards stating that they are working on that are not enough.

A legal document that states that they are, signed and sworn to be true is not enough either?

They also state that Jim Shooter had full benefits, something that has been disputed already if we are to believe the post ascribed to Janet Jackson.

Thus legal documents are no more a certain source of facts than anything else. What those documents serves as is a set of allegations, no more really.

<sigh>

You're probably right.

They are probably making it all up because they are broke, and want a million dollars.

That explanation definitely makes the most sense.

They probably hired Jim to work on movies for them, because they wanted someone who wasn't really a movie guy to do that work. They didn't hire Jim for comics, after all, why hire someone who excels at making comics and let him make comics? They wanted Jim to write movie treatments. After all, why hire someone who is successful at getting movies made when you could just hire Jim Shooter to do it?

That makes perfect sense.

Sarcasm aside (and I don't think it was wholly warranted mate, since we are engaged in civil discussion with differing opinions ), I wonder what their cash reserves really amount to. they have probably had an outlay of what $1-1.5 million at least? With probably no more than $200-250k income? Maybe their incentive is financial, who knows (well VEI and their accountants would have a fair idea methinks).

Now my concern re: the movies has been supported by Janet Jackson (if we believe the post attributed to her).

Further points to ponder:
1. VEI made the movie announcment in August 2008; they employed Jim Shooter (apparently) as EiC in December 2008, some four months later - where do the priorities lie?
2. The publishing 'plan' included a lead time of thirteen months or more - a hell of a long time when six to nine was probably doable, so why the delay? Especially if paying salaries to get that work done only to delay it being followed through?
3. The VEI/VIP dispute was resolved in December 2007; it took a year to hire Jim Shooter as EiC (if he was actually fulfilling that post - his position may differ from VEI); now VEI could certainly have been waiting for whom they regarded as the 'right man', but that is a heck of a delay; effectively over two years of functioning as a company before the 'planned' publishing launch, with only three products to speak of, no certainty of acquiring what appear (from the legal documents) the most sought after proerties (did you notice that no non-GK properties were mentioned?), and focus (of VEI's own press releases) heavily around the movie deal prospects. That to me seems an odd state of affairs for a publisher, but then they (VEI) don't simply define themselves as a publisher in their legal papers.

My concern has always been a simple one - that their (VEI's) primary aim was not to be a publisher first, but rather they were setting themselves up as a media licensor, which I would argue was not clear to the fans who bought one or more copies of the HC's.

[leonmallett]

If (and it is a big if) there was no signed contract, can a (non-?)employee be held to such fiduciary duty?

Accepting a payment holds you to your duties as much as a contract - however, with a contract it is much easier to say exactly what the duties are.

Anyway, this whole mess is extremely saddening.

/Magnus

Good point. Something I hadn't considered.

[Fanboy375]

I wonder if VEI can even produce documentation that they were in negotiations with Classic Media?

Again, it was my understanding is that the rights were locked up tight by Dark Horse into 2012.

[Daniel Jackson]

I wonder if VEI can even produce documentation that they were in negotiations with Classic Media?

Again, it was my understanding is that the rights were locked up tight by Dark Horse into 2012.

The question is though, when did Dark Horse make that arrangement with Classic? We know they had the GK reprint rights, but what about the right to publish new stuff?

[Fanboy375]

From the first page of this:

So, from my own experiences I have some faults with this.

In November of 2008, I started to call Random House, Classic Media, and Dark Horse about getting permission to use the likenesses of Magnus, Turok, and Solar for the previously completed but never publsihed Unity 2000 issues #4, 5, & 6. This was a fan project per an agreement that I had with Dino.

I was told by Dark Horse (just after the Turok animated movie and comic adaptation were released) that they could not give us permission to print the material as they had future plans for the characters (but did not specify comics). This was in 2008!!! Dark Horse had NO intention of giving up the rights to the characters from my conversations with them.

I was also contacted by Random House and Classic media stating a no go. They said that DH had the rights to reprint the GK material as well as publish new, if they so chose.

However, the emails that i had have long since been deleted. And, the only correspondance I had with Dino (to relate all of the above material) was one (1) phone call about the matter.

These are the FACTS above. Draw your own conclusions

[jbtheo]

My concern has always been a simple one - that their (VEI's) primary aim was not to be a publisher first, but rather they were setting themselves up as a media licensor, which I would argue was not clear to the fans who bought one or more copies of the HC's.

It was always my impression that the investors associated with VEI purchased the rights to the Valiant library because they wanted to license the characters out to Hollywood studios or video games. I always assumed comic books was a secondary item on their agenda, but also, again, assumed that would be their initial platform to get the word out that "Hey look at us! Comic books! Make a movie of it! We're ready to negotiate!" It makes zero sense to rely on a series or stories and comics from over a decade ago, and expect Hollywood to come knocking. It's almost like VEI expected that to happen, but since it didn't, it somehow put a kink in their initial plans. Why else would they make a press release about this Brett Ratner guy and not about hiring Jim Shooter?

I think these guys at VEI had zero knowledge of the comic book business, and just saw these Spider-Man and X-Men movies, and thought spending $900K initially to purchase rights to these characters that no one was paying any attention to anymore was a fast way to make a few million bucks.

"wow, we just need to land one movie deal, and we're rich!"

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

From a purist point of view, I loath this current trend of people thinking of comic books as a base script for a new potential movie. Sure, movies are making comic books themselves more popular, but what'll happen when Hollywood loses interest?

[Dr. Solar]

1. VEI made the movie announcment in August 2008; they employed Jim Shooter (apparently) as EiC in December 2008, some four months later - where do the priorities lie?
2. The publishing 'plan' included a lead time of thirteen months or more - a hell of a long time when six to nine was probably doable, so why the delay? Especially if paying salaries to get that work done only to delay it being followed through?
3. The VEI/VIP dispute was resolved in December 2007; it took a year to hire Jim Shooter as EiC (if he was actually fulfilling that post - his position may differ from VEI); now VEI could certainly have been waiting for whom they regarded as the 'right man', but that is a heck of a delay; effectively over two years of functioning as a company before the 'planned' publishing launch, with only three products to speak of, no certainty of acquiring what appear (from the legal documents) the most sought after proerties (did you notice that no non-GK properties were mentioned?), and focus (of VEI's own press releases) heavily around the movie deal prospects. That to me seems an odd state of affairs for a publisher, but then they (VEI) don't simply define themselves as a publisher in their legal papers.

My concern has always been a simple one - that their (VEI's) primary aim was not to be a publisher first, but rather they were setting themselves up as a media licensor, which I would argue was not clear to the fans who bought one or more copies of the HC's.

0) Any speculation about how much money VE has is just that - speculation. I have no idea, you have no idea. I have no idea how much money you have, and you have no idea how much money I have.

1) VE employed Jim Shooter in early 2007 to at least work on the hardcovers. We only know that he was hired as EiC in late 2008. VE has three hardcovers to show for themselves, and only one movie option. Where do the priorities lie?

2) Read my previous post about things taking a while to do. I'd like to think that they are taking their time because they (1) want to do things right, and (2) have the luxury to do so. My interpretation is just as valid as yours, since we both seem to be speculating.

3) How long did it take Voyager to get Magnus and Solar out? A couple years, if I remember correctly from when they formed to when Magnus 1 came out.

I would think it is silly of us NOT to think that Valiant is interested in movie deals. That is the nature of the business these days.

I also think it is silly for us not to think that they are interested in publishing a quality comic book line, when all the evidence points to that conclusion.

As I understand it, the evidence that they don't have comics as a priority are:

- It's taken a long time to get things done
- They haven't said much.

Information that lends itself to drawing no conclusion is not reason to draw the opposite conclusion.

[jbtheo]

I wonder if VEI can even produce documentation that they were in negotiations with Classic Media?

That's probably why VEI is complaining about Jim Shooter's "personal" emails from his laptop.

[Daniel Jackson]

I think these guys at VEI had zero knowledge of the comic book business, and just saw these Spider-Man and X-Men movies, and thought spending $900K initially to purchase rights to these characters that no one was paying any attention to anymore was a fast way to make a few million bucks.

"wow, we just need to land one movie deal, and we're rich!"

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

In the case of Dino, I don't think he went into this just for the big money that the movie rights would make. He is a Valiant fan and I think he wants to see the magic of the early Valiant happen again just as much as the rest of us.

[jbtheo]

I think these guys at VEI had zero knowledge of the comic book business, and just saw these Spider-Man and X-Men movies, and thought spending $900K initially to purchase rights to these characters that no one was paying any attention to anymore was a fast way to make a few million bucks.

"wow, we just need to land one movie deal, and we're rich!"

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

In the case of Dino, I don't think he went into this just for the big money that the movie rights would make. He is a Valiant fan and I think he wants to see the magic of the early Valiant happen again just as much as the rest of us.

I hope so. It must be very frustrating for him being on the inside, and seeing what is happening first hand.

[Fanboy375]

I think these guys at VEI had zero knowledge of the comic book business, and just saw these Spider-Man and X-Men movies, and thought spending $900K initially to purchase rights to these characters that no one was paying any attention to anymore was a fast way to make a few million bucks.

"wow, we just need to land one movie deal, and we're rich!"

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

In the case of Dino, I don't think he went into this just for the big money that the movie rights would make. He is a Valiant fan and I think he wants to see the magic of the early Valiant happen again just as much as the rest of us.

I agree, and we do not know how much of this is Dino and how much is Jason or Walter.

[leonmallett]

0) Any speculation about how much money VE has is just that - speculation. I have no idea, you have no idea. I have no idea how much money you have, and you have no idea how much money I have.

Fair comment.

1) VE employed Jim Shooter in early 2007 to at least work on the hardcovers. We only know that he was hired as EiC in late 2008. VE has three hardcovers to show for themselves, and only one movie option. Where do the priorities lie?

The options and HC's are not like for like propositions. Maybe look at it another way. What percentage of effort, investment and time was allocated to each? We don't know, obviously, but that is a fairer comparison than 3 of X, 1 of Y.

2) Read my previous post about things taking a while to do. I'd like to think that they are taking their time because they (1) want to do things right, and (2) have the luxury to do so. My interpretation is just as valid as yours, since we both seem to be speculating.

I'll give you that - that both of our opinions are valid interpretations in lieu of other corroborating facts.

3) How long did it take Voyager to get Magnus and Solar out? A couple years, if I remember correctly from when they formed to when Magnus 1 came out.

Except that didn't Voyager release other (non-VH1) comic books in the interim? So maybe not the closest analogy.

I would think it is silly of us NOT to think that Valiant is interested in movie deals. That is the nature of the business these days.

I also think it is silly for us not to think that they are interested in publishing a quality comic book line, when all the evidence points to that conclusion.

I agree that they should look at whatever opportunities they can. However, consider this: were the hardcovers they sold largely sold in faith that they would soon (at least sooner than now, possibly) be publishing new material? Were they purchased by fans wanting to see efforts directed primarily to comic books rather than seeking out other media opportunities?

I have never said that VEI should not pursue other media licensing (and if you can find a post of mine in which I say such a thing then I will stand corrected). What I have said consistently is that VEI have not acted in a manner consistent with being a publisher of comic books as a primary concern. And a 'plan' does not make them such a publisher - comic books make them a publisher. And we have seen no such new examples of comic books from VEI since they rightfully won their fight. in other words, would - or could -things have turned out betetr had they simply focused on making comic books first, chasing Hollywood second?

As I understand it, the evidence that they don't have comics as a priority are:

- It's taken a long time to get things done
- They haven't said much.

Information that lends itself to drawing no conclusion is not reason to draw the opposite conclusion.

It took a year to sign Jim Shooter as EiC, allegedly. Why a year? Waiting for other contracts to finish? Possibly. Negotiations? Possibly. There could be many other plausible explanations.

Consider this - besides Jim Shooter, who else did they have aboard creatively? If no-one, I'd argue they were little closer to being a publisher. And if no-one, then in seven and a half months what was the focus of the work he was doing for them?

[Dr. Solar]

@leon:

I think the best way for VE to pursue movie deals would be to put out quality comic books. I would imagine that they know this to some degree too.

It seems to me that even less work has been done to create movies than has been done to make comics.

There is even less evidence that they have been chasing hollywood than there is that they have been working on comics.

What evidence is there that they are chasing hollywood? One option deal? Did I miss anything else?

Now, I have no idea what their priority is. I just think that their isn't really enough evidence either way to make that call.

[Dr. Solar]

In the case of Dino, I don't think he went into this just for the big money that the movie rights would make. He is a Valiant fan and I think he wants to see the magic of the early Valiant happen again just as much as the rest of us.

I agree with DJ on this point. That is my impression of Dinesh.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Anyway, this whole mess is extremely saddening.

[myron]

Anyway, this whole mess is extremely saddening.

[leonmallett]

@leon:

I think the best way for VE to pursue movie deals would be to put out quality comic books. I would imagine that they know this to some degree too.

It seems to me that even less work has been done to create movies than has been done to make comics.

There is even less evidence that they have been chasing hollywood than there is that they have been working on comics.

What evidence is there that they are chasing hollywood? One option deal? Did I miss anything else?

Now, I have no idea what their priority is. I just think that their isn't really enough evidence either way to make that call.

To follow your logic (and I can see your logic, even if I don't agree as to where it leads in terms of concerns/absence of concerns), ultimately there is little evidence of a them (VEI) doing very much at all. Three hardcovers in less than one year, and nothing in the intervening 12 months is the only evidence we have. Not much to show for their investment, which has now been compounded by a potentially ugly court case.

[dave]

0) Any speculation about how much money VE has is just that - speculation. I have no idea, you have no idea. I have no idea how much money you have, and you have no idea how much money I have.

Wrong! I dug through your trash and found everything I needed to investigate you! Oh the secrets I could tell.

And I totally agree with you on this:

As I understand it, the evidence that they don't have comics as a priority are:

- It's taken a long time to get things done
- They haven't said much.

[dave]

I think these guys at VEI had zero knowledge of the comic book business, and just saw these Spider-Man and X-Men movies, and thought spending $900K initially to purchase rights to these characters that no one was paying any attention to anymore was a fast way to make a few million bucks.

"wow, we just need to land one movie deal, and we're rich!"

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

In the case of Dino, I don't think he went into this just for the big money that the movie rights would make. He is a Valiant fan and I think he wants to see the magic of the early Valiant happen again just as much as the rest of us.

I agree. I feel really sad for him right now, because it seems like he was almost able to pull off exactly what we'd all been hoping for. I really don't know what went wrong, but my condolences go out to him (if that's the right word)

[Dr. Solar]

0) Any speculation about how much money VE has is just that - speculation. I have no idea, you have no idea. I have no idea how much money you have, and you have no idea how much money I have.

Wrong! I dug through your trash and found everything I needed to investigate you! Oh the secrets I could tell.

I will sue you for 1 million dollars if you tell.

(is it too soon?)

[dave]

Probably. I haven't even told any secrets yet, or lined up any other work