What if Shooter stayed?

[Daniel Jackson]

other people have told me how annoying that power is as well-right after i use it on them.

DJ, you WILL send me all of your VVSS books.

must....send Dave....books...huh, what? Stop that!

[BloodOfHeroes]

must....send Dave....books...huh, what? Stop that!

These are not the books dave's looking for...

[xodacia81]

must....send Dave....books...huh, what? Stop that!

These are not the books dave's looking for...

Jedi Mind Tricks. Amateurs.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Jedi Mind Tricks. Amateurs.

Oh yeah?!?!

MINDLOCK!!!

blizzam!

[xodacia81]

Jedi Mind Tricks. Amateurs.

Oh yeah?!?!

MINDLOCK!!!

blizzam!

Post-Unity powers are puny. They are no match for me

[BloodOfHeroes]

Post-Unity powers are puny. They are no match for me

Um, is that a hungry T-Rex I see, a-headin' this way?

[xodacia81]

Post-Unity powers are puny. They are no match for me

Um, is that a hungry T-Rex I see, a-headin' this way?

Well played

[yardstick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxhDXHYMuEg

[Drift]

I see your dinosaur and raise you two unicorns

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b1RGt-a-X ... re=related

[jdmoonie77]

Rumor has it that Shooter is suppose to make a surprise announcement at this February NYCOMIC CON. I was in NYC and heard it from 5 retailers who have a working relationship with Shooter.

[Elveen]

Rumor has it that Shooter is suppose to make a surprise announcement at this February NYCOMIC CON. I was in NYC and heard it from 5 retailers who have a working relationship with Shooter.

Ohhhhhhhhhh...... tantalizing.

[Zaphod]

I don't think Valiant would have survived had he stayed though.

I think the company would have survived if he had the right people financially backing him, instead of the ones who backstabbed him.

Again.. not how I heard it, but I was coming in right after so I got the POV of those that stayed and they didn't tend to be kind to Shooter. Certainly the VC guys wanted to make a buck on their investment, that's what VCs do.

This in fact led to some (I think) bad decisions later on down the road with regard to stifling early license offers for t-shirts, action figures and even movie deals so as to maximize the value of the property (Valiant) to a potential buyer.

My understanding at the time was that Unity was the break that Valiant needed to stay afloat. We were right on the edge of shutting the doors and if Unity hadn't been a break-out hit it would have been over and done very soon after.

Also, you can't put too much emphasis on two of the guys running the show behind the scenes. Jon Hartz and Fred Pierce. Jon's marketing mojo put Valiant on the map and Fred Pierce ran the day-to-day squeezing every penny he could from vendors in a lot of innovative ways. Things like buying train carloads of paper to knock a few pennies off the cost of each issue.

There was, in my opinion, a lot more to Valiant than just Jim Shooter. Bob and Kevin provided the same kind of editorial vision that I think Shooter would have. Experienced creatives like Barry, Don Perlin, Bob Hall, and John Dixon were there showing the knobs what professionalism looked like day in and day out.

It was a unique environment, but in the same way that Sammy Sosa isn't the Cubs. I don't think that Jim Shooter WAS Valiant. He had the same opportunities to create an imprint from the ground up with Defiant and how long did that last?

Clifford VanMeter
<a href="http://cliffordvanmeter.com" target="_blank"> Website</a> | <a href="=http://cliffordblog.com" target="_blank"> Art Blog</a> | <a href="http://blog-arctosmedia.com" target="_blank">Design Blog</a>

Cliff, as I said in another thread a little while ago, I know that Jim wasn't totally on his own and there were others that contributed to the success of Valiant. I think most people here realize that as well. On the other hand, I don't think Valiant would have stood a chance without him.

When you get a free moment, I would like you read The Jim Shooter Interview and get your opinion on what the man says. I think you will be surprised at just how involved that Jim was in just about every aspect of Valiant.

Says Jim. I hear Jim also invented the internet.

In all seriousness, you are taking the word from the man, about the man and Jim is notorious for claiming every good idea was his. If you believe that to be the case, it is very difficult to continue any kind of discussion and I also have a bridge in Brooklyn I have been looking to offload and I will give you a sweet BIN offer, off Ebay of course.

It all boils down to reading and listening to all sides involved. I've heard Layton's version and Shooters. Jim's makes far more sense to me. You can believe whatever you want.

3 sides to every story, I am guessing a middle ground on either version is closer to the truth. I'd love a 3rd parties description of the events, to be honest.

[Zaphod]

I don't think Valiant would have survived had he stayed though.

I think the company would have survived if he had the right people financially backing him, instead of the ones who backstabbed him.

What I meant is that when the market crashed I don't think Valiant would have survived regardless if he had been at the helm or not. There were so many damn speculators wanting books for just to re-sell them and I don't see how a guy even like Jim Shooter could have stopped at a company like Valiant at the time he left.

I will have to say that the one thing has already impressed me with the whole Shooter/Valiant story was the fact that Shooter didn't sell out. I mean think about it if someone offered you a seven or eight figures to sell a company that you started and he didn't take the deal for money like a lot of people probably would have (I'm sorry to say that I probably would have sold out) and that others did.

I'm saying Shooter's a saint or anything but when a guy is being offered a lot of money to sell a company and he didn't take the money says a lot about kind of man he is.

Its all academic of course, but I wonder if a Shooter-run Valiant would have made it into the Speculator Boom. I posit the only reason Valiant survived long enough to be sold to Acclaim was their rapid expansion, which Jim seemed (from what I read) against. Shelfspace on eight or so titles could have been squashed by the other big boys.

This is not a specific reference to either creator but:

Shooter Valiant = Integrity and really great sci-fi stories, but in the red

Layton Valiant = $$$, expansion, gloss, big name creators, "Super Heroes" with eventual intellectual whoring.

I think if Jim had stayed and if Valiant had survived into the Speculator Boom Jim has the experience and the guile to have kept the business afloat. The one thing Jim seemed excellent at was squeezing a buck into $1.27.

Acclaim had other problems that caused its demise...and that seems to be the story of Jims life post-Valiant. The companies he kept finding financing from had other motivations and when the shoe dropped, the other was free-falling before the first hit the floor.

I don't know if Jim would have let Valiant get as greedy as it got with the speculator boom though, I believe he would have known how artificial the numbers were (as Bob has admited he knew the same to be true, in an interview I read somewhere IIRC) and when the speculators jumped, the true and blue Valiant fans would have remained because the only titles that survived that bust was the big names and the tried and true "good stories" which Jim can tell.

[Cyberstrike]

I don't think Valiant would have survived had he stayed though.

I think the company would have survived if he had the right people financially backing him, instead of the ones who backstabbed him.

What I meant is that when the market crashed I don't think Valiant would have survived regardless if he had been at the helm or not. There were so many damn speculators wanting books for just to re-sell them and I don't see how a guy even like Jim Shooter could have stopped at a company like Valiant at the time he left.

I will have to say that the one thing has already impressed me with the whole Shooter/Valiant story was the fact that Shooter didn't sell out. I mean think about it if someone offered you a seven or eight figures to sell a company that you started and he didn't take the deal for money like a lot of people probably would have (I'm sorry to say that I probably would have sold out) and that others did.

I'm saying Shooter's a saint or anything but when a guy is being offered a lot of money to sell a company and he didn't take the money says a lot about kind of man he is.

Its all academic of course, but I wonder if a Shooter-run Valiant would have made it into the Speculator Boom. I posit the only reason Valiant survived long enough to be sold to Acclaim was their rapid expansion, which Jim seemed (from what I read) against. Shelfspace on eight or so titles could have been squashed by the other big boys.

This is not a specific reference to either creator but:

Shooter Valiant = Integrity and really great sci-fi stories, but in the red

Layton Valiant = $$$, expansion, gloss, big name creators, "Super Heroes" with eventual intellectual whoring.

I think if Jim had stayed and if Valiant had survived into the Speculator Boom Jim has the experience and the guile to have kept the business afloat. The one thing Jim seemed excellent at was squeezing a buck into $1.27.

Acclaim had other problems that caused its demise...and that seems to be the story of Jims life post-Valiant. The companies he kept finding financing from had other motivations and when the shoe dropped, the other was free-falling before the first hit the floor.

I don't know if Jim would have let Valiant get as greedy as it got with the speculator boom though, I believe he would have known how artificial the numbers were (as Bob has admited he knew the same to be true, in an interview I read somewhere IIRC) and when the speculators jumped, the true and blue Valiant fans would have remained because the only titles that survived that bust was the big names and the tried and true "good stories" which Jim can tell.

I think it's safe to say that Shooter knew the value of gimmicks because he did use them: the coupons for Magnus #0 and Harbinger #0, the free giveaway comic (Unity #0, Charlemagne #0 and The Great Grimax#0) company-wide crossovers (like Secret Wars and Unity), trading cards sets and binders as comics (like Warriors of Plasm #0 and Dark Dominion #0 which from what I've read and heard was more of Defiant's financial backers' idea than his, but I guess it's one of those "it seemed like a good idea at time" kind of deals), and gimmick covers which he did use at Valiant and Broadway (like Solar, Man of the Atom #10 and Fatale #1) and more.

I think while he had and showed a lot more restraint than a lot of other people did, he did use gimmicks (sometimes reluctantly other times with reckless abandon) like the ones above to sell his books. I do think he used them the right way to try and get attention to his books and not to just to make a quick buck.

[Zaphod]

I don't think Valiant would have survived had he stayed though.

I think the company would have survived if he had the right people financially backing him, instead of the ones who backstabbed him.

What I meant is that when the market crashed I don't think Valiant would have survived regardless if he had been at the helm or not. There were so many damn speculators wanting books for just to re-sell them and I don't see how a guy even like Jim Shooter could have stopped at a company like Valiant at the time he left.

I will have to say that the one thing has already impressed me with the whole Shooter/Valiant story was the fact that Shooter didn't sell out. I mean think about it if someone offered you a seven or eight figures to sell a company that you started and he didn't take the deal for money like a lot of people probably would have (I'm sorry to say that I probably would have sold out) and that others did.

I'm saying Shooter's a saint or anything but when a guy is being offered a lot of money to sell a company and he didn't take the money says a lot about kind of man he is.

Its all academic of course, but I wonder if a Shooter-run Valiant would have made it into the Speculator Boom. I posit the only reason Valiant survived long enough to be sold to Acclaim was their rapid expansion, which Jim seemed (from what I read) against. Shelfspace on eight or so titles could have been squashed by the other big boys.

This is not a specific reference to either creator but:

Shooter Valiant = Integrity and really great sci-fi stories, but in the red

Layton Valiant = $$$, expansion, gloss, big name creators, "Super Heroes" with eventual intellectual whoring.

I think if Jim had stayed and if Valiant had survived into the Speculator Boom Jim has the experience and the guile to have kept the business afloat. The one thing Jim seemed excellent at was squeezing a buck into $1.27.

Acclaim had other problems that caused its demise...and that seems to be the story of Jims life post-Valiant. The companies he kept finding financing from had other motivations and when the shoe dropped, the other was free-falling before the first hit the floor.

I don't know if Jim would have let Valiant get as greedy as it got with the speculator boom though, I believe he would have known how artificial the numbers were (as Bob has admited he knew the same to be true, in an interview I read somewhere IIRC) and when the speculators jumped, the true and blue Valiant fans would have remained because the only titles that survived that bust was the big names and the tried and true "good stories" which Jim can tell.

I think it's safe to say that Shooter knew the value of gimmicks because he did use them: the coupons for Magnus #0 and Harbinger #0, the free giveaway comic (Unity #0, Charlemagne #0 and The Great Grimax#0) company-wide crossovers (like Secret Wars and Unity), trading cards sets and binders as comics (like Warriors of Plasm #0 and Dark Dominion #0 which from what I've read and heard was more of Defiant's financial backers' idea than his, but I guess it's one of those "it seemed like a good idea at time" kind of deals), and gimmick covers which he did use at Valiant and Broadway (like Solar, Man of the Atom #10 and Fatale #1) and more.

I think while he had and showed a lot more restraint than a lot of other people did, he did use gimmicks (sometimes reluctantly other times with reckless abandon) like the ones above to sell his books. I do think he used them the right way to try and get attention to his books and not to just to make a quick buck.

Agreed, I wasn't meaning to imply that Jim isn't a ringmaster in the carnival or that his business practice is pure as the undriven snow (or is it driven snow, but intended sarcastically...I never quite understood that phrase) just that he didn't rely on it to sell comics. He used it, damn straight but it was those gimmick comics which that was all that they were was their gimmick that ruined the 90's.

And *I* was one of the many marks who was taken by the scam. I have far too many cardboard stock covered comics in my collection ( DAMN YOU IMAGE! )

Jims gimmicks were often fresh, original and attempts at true enhancements to the medium. I didn't quite buy into his gimmicks either, I just think that Jim would have been better prepared and able to survive the crash than many others were.

[myron]

I see your dinosaur and raise you two unicorns

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b1RGt-a-X ... re=related

In my world everyone's a unicorn and they eat rainbows and poop butterflies...

[Drift]

I see your dinosaur and raise you two unicorns

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b1RGt-a-X ... re=related

In my world everyone's a unicorn and they eat rainbows and poop butterflies...

Ah but is there a magical leoplurodon, a bridge of hope and wonder, Candy Mountain and a Banana King?

[myron]

I see your dinosaur and raise you two unicorns

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b1RGt-a-X ... re=related

In my world everyone's a unicorn and they eat rainbows and poop butterflies...

Ah but is there a magical leoplurodon, a bridge of hope and wonder, Candy Mountain and a Banana King?

Sure right on the other side of the candycane forest and sea of twirly, swirly gumdrops...

[Drift]

I see your dinosaur and raise you two unicorns

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b1RGt-a-X ... re=related

In my world everyone's a unicorn and they eat rainbows and poop butterflies...

Ah but is there a magical leoplurodon, a bridge of hope and wonder, Candy Mountain and a Banana King?

Sure right on the other side of the candycane forest and sea of twirly, swirly gumdrops...

Twirly, swirly... I think I have been there.

Nah that was lunch time at school.

[dave]

Shooter Valiant = Integrity and really great sci-fi stories, but in the red

Layton Valiant = $$$, expansion, gloss, big name creators, "Super Heroes" with eventual intellectual whoring.


I think it's safe to say that Shooter knew the value of gimmicks because he did use them: the coupons for Magnus #0 and Harbinger #0, the free giveaway comic (Unity #0, Charlemagne #0 and The Great Grimax#0) company-wide crossovers (like Secret Wars and Unity), trading cards sets and binders as comics (like Warriors of Plasm #0 and Dark Dominion #0 which from what I've read and heard was more of Defiant's financial backers' idea than his, but I guess it's one of those "it seemed like a good idea at time" kind of deals), and gimmick covers which he did use at Valiant and Broadway (like Solar, Man of the Atom #10 and Fatale #1) and more.

I think while he had and showed a lot more restraint than a lot of other people did, he did use gimmicks (sometimes reluctantly other times with reckless abandon) like the ones above to sell his books. I do think he used them the right way to try and get attention to his books and not to just to make a quick buck.

Agreed, I wasn't meaning to imply that Jim isn't a ringmaster in the carnival or that his business practice is pure as the undriven snow (or is it driven snow, but intended sarcastically...I never quite understood that phrase) just that he didn't rely on it to sell comics. He used it, damn straight but it was those gimmick comics which that was all that they were was their gimmick that ruined the 90's.

Jims gimmicks were often fresh, original and attempts at true enhancements to the medium. I didn't quite buy into his gimmicks either, I just think that Jim would have been better prepared and able to survive the crash than many others were.

i think Jim used gimmicks at times to sell books, but it seems clear that his intent was to only do gimmicks that added value.

after hearing many buyers' complaints regarding "cutting up" their books he came right out and asked valiant fans to speak up-later they changed their idea on redemption coupons.

[MoonChild]

I'd really love to see Shooter work with Valiant again but if not I just wish the man a nice spot under the sun, sounds like he's been ta hell & back and I hate seeing good people suffer. Hopefully these investors will wake up and watch some creative magic happen, hopefully it's already in the works

[Knob]

I also agree with the comments about the outside talent and the treatment of the guys that had been there from the start. When they started bringing in "stars" rather than working pros like Ostrander, Vosburg, Dixon, and Perlin, they just gave up an pretense of control.

In my humble opinion, Ostrander is a star. The guy is a damn fine writer, was before he went to VALIANT and after.

I like what Cliff is getting at, though. That Ostrander didn't come in with a "superstar" attitude and try to change things to fit his ego and make it all about him. I know I'm in the minority, but I really enjoyed the Malev War-which he was the first writer on-and his work on Eternal Warrior, which I think was very good. Some say it was "a bad Punisher rip" but I never saw it that way.

I totally agree, I think the Malev War is amazing. In some ways I enjoy reading it as much as Unity. X-0 is also just as good post Unity for a long time and Shadowman is actually better.

The 18 months after Shooter left totally get criticized waaaaaaaay more than they deserve... the reason... they aren't rare.

People love the idea of having something they love that is only for themselves, million copy print runs ruin that feeling. Eventually the comics truly did get bad, but a lot of the high print run comics are truly awesome and some of the best in the super hero genre. The people acting like Valiant had 70 perfect issues and then the rest was crap are really kidding themselves, pre-Unity has some flaws and post Unity has some great runs.

My favorite video game is probably Panzer Dragoon Saga for Sega Saturn, I think it is the most artistic and beautiful game ever... but it also doesn't hurt that only 4500 copies were released to the entire USA as the system died. I got one of them and now they sell for $150-250 on eBay. Pre-Unity is the same as that game.