Virgin Comics

[Chiclo]

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

You don't want to increase the exposure of these new comics?

Not by crossing them over with DC and Marvel.

THREE TIMES now the people in charge of VALIANT have tried to be more like DC and Marvel and FAILED.

THREE TIMES.

There is NO need to make it a FOURTH.

FIND a different tactic, one that hasn't failed THREE TIMES,.

Valiant only failed twice so I guess that doesn't qualify for what you are talking about until they fail one more time.

They failed with the increased print runs, which made retailers not like them, and they failed with BQuake and with *Acclaim (1997 series)*.

That's not what I meant.

Valiant failed twice. VHONE and VHTWO. I guess VHTHREE could be a third failure...

So, did we meet your criteria counting VHTWO and VHTHREE as separate failures?

[ManofTheAtom]

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

You don't want to increase the exposure of these new comics?

Not by crossing them over with DC and Marvel.

THREE TIMES now the people in charge of VALIANT have tried to be more like DC and Marvel and FAILED.

THREE TIMES.

There is NO need to make it a FOURTH.

FIND a different tactic, one that hasn't failed THREE TIMES,.

Valiant only failed twice so I guess that doesn't qualify for what you are talking about until they fail one more time.

They failed with the increased print runs, which made retailers not like them, and they failed with BQuake and with *Acclaim (1997 series)*.

That's not what I meant.

Valiant failed twice. VHONE and VHTWO. I guess VHTHREE could be a third failure...

So, did we meet your criteria counting VHTWO and VHTHREE as separate failures?

VH 3 never came out, so it couldn't have failed. It was killed in production.

VH 3 could be called the end result of all the negative repercussions that came out of the three attempts to imitate DC and Marvel.

Voyager and Acclaim were so desperate to be like DC and Marvel, that the universe could no longer stand on its own.

VH 3 Mirage, for instance, tried to be a rip off of Batman and Dr Strange. Had it actually come out, that would have been the fourth attempt to be like DC and Marvel and the fourth failure.

That's what could be said about U2K, which was a Crisis on Infinite Earths rip off (Perham admited as much to CBR).

[Steve Topper]

MOTA,

Going back to the points made on page 1 of this thread -- I don't think it really matters one bit whether VEI talks to retailers or not (at least right now!). Retailers are going to be very skeptical of any product with a Valiant label.

And even though VEI is a new management group, they are trying to sell (to the retailers!) the same characters that failed in the past. The same characters they have (or had) long boxes full of unsold comics. It's not a logical decision, but an emotional one -- and it's one that retailers will make to the detriment of VEI.

Let's look at a hypothetical example. I've heard there are about 3000 retailers in the U.S. How many of them actually bought space at SDCC? 300? (I don't know -- that may be high or low. It would seem very high based on the NY Comic Con this spring) That's 10% of all retailers. Did VEI get around and talk to all of them? I don't know, but it's VERY doubtful those retailers sought out VEI. They wouldn't have time as they're at SDCC to sell comics and have to be at their booths.

Retailers are going to remember Valiant from the 90s and unfortunately order accordingly. All of our discussion about what retailers should do and shouldn't do is purely academic. Unless there is a substantial market for VEI product, retailers will only order what they believe they can sell. And they don't believe YET that they can sell Valiant comics.

[ManofTheAtom]

They wouldn't have time as they're at SDCC to sell comics and have to be at their booths.

As I told you before, there are days (or nights) during SDCC that are exclusively for retailers to meet with publishers. I'm not sure, but I think that takes place on Wednesday night.

The meetings don't take place during the con, but before it or after the exhibition hall closes at 7 pm.

Retailers are going to remember Valiant from the 90s and unfortunately order accordingly. All of our discussion about what retailers should do and shoudln't do is purely academic. Unless there is a substantial market for VEI product, retailers will only order what they believe they can sell. And they don't believe YET that they can sell Valiant comics.

Retailers will remember VALIANT from the 90's only if they're stupid enough to not know that VEI is a different group by reading about it online or through Diamond, or VEI doesn't tell them that they are a different group during those meetings.

[Chiclo]

You honestly don't think anyone will confuse Valiant comics now with Valiant comics from the early 90s? Or even the Akklaim comics?

Why would that be, praytell? Would the new Valiant comics not be enough like Marvel or DC comics?

[ManofTheAtom]

You honestly don't think anyone will confuse Valiant comics now with Valiant comics from the early 90s? Or even the Akklaim comics?

Why would that be, praytell? Would the new Valiant comics not be enough like Marvel or DC comics?

Go back and re-read when I said, more than twice now, that it is the people that manage the company that changed, just like the people that managed Marvel in the 90's changed when Toy Biz bought the company.

The material, the characters, is the same for both VALIANT and Marvel. It is the people that make the comics that are difference, so it is the decision making that is different.

Just like VEI wouldn't make the mistake of printing one million copies of a new Harbinger #1, Marvel doesn't make the mistake of having multiple editors in chief or buying their own distributor.

For some reason, you three think that retailers are smart enough to tell when Marvel changed management but too stupid to know when it happens to VALIANT.

[Chiclo]

You honestly don't think anyone will confuse Valiant comics now with Valiant comics from the early 90s? Or even the Akklaim comics?

Why would that be, praytell? Would the new Valiant comics not be enough like Marvel or DC comics?

Go back and re-read when I said, more than twice now, that it is the people that manage the company that changed, just like the people that managed Marvel in the 90's changed when Toy Biz bought the company.

The material, the characters, is the same for both VALIANT and Marvel. It is the people that make the comics that are difference, so it is the decision making that is different.

Just like VEI wouldn't make the mistake of printing one million copies of a new Harbinger #4, Marvel doesn't make the mistake of having multiple editors in chief or buying their own distributor.

For some reason, you three think that retailers are smart enough to tell when Marvel changed management but too stupid to know when it happens to VALIANT.

But you don't think any comic retailer will think to himself "Oh gee, X-O Manowar. I've got 4 long boxes of volume 1 and one long box of volume 2 already. Why do I need another box of these that nobody will buy?"

[Cyberstrike]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Identity Crisis was great everything else that has came out since then is pure crap.

Back on topic: retailers now of days seem are far more reluctant to order anything that comes from Marvel, DC, Image, or Dark Horse that the fans don't order. If they get say 10 orders for any titles then 10 copies of that particular issue of that title is all that will be ordered.

[ManofTheAtom]

You honestly don't think anyone will confuse Valiant comics now with Valiant comics from the early 90s? Or even the Akklaim comics?

Why would that be, praytell? Would the new Valiant comics not be enough like Marvel or DC comics?

Go back and re-read when I said, more than twice now, that it is the people that manage the company that changed, just like the people that managed Marvel in the 90's changed when Toy Biz bought the company.

The material, the characters, is the same for both VALIANT and Marvel. It is the people that make the comics that are difference, so it is the decision making that is different.

Just like VEI wouldn't make the mistake of printing one million copies of a new Harbinger #4, Marvel doesn't make the mistake of having multiple editors in chief or buying their own distributor.

For some reason, you three think that retailers are smart enough to tell when Marvel changed management but too stupid to know when it happens to VALIANT.

But you don't think any comic retailer will think to himself "Oh gee, X-O Manowar. I've got 4 long boxes of volume 1 and one long box of volume 2 already. Why do I need another box of these that nobody will buy?"

It really depens on how smart the retailer is.

A new awareness of the character might help him sell the product he has too many copies of.

For instance, TKWill took me to a store in Las Vegas that was selling six issues of Green Arrow (the Mike Grell version from the 80's) for something like 5 dollars in one bag (I bought three bags, 18 issues).

A retailer that has too many copies of X-O Manowar can put out similar packs of six issues and sell them for five dollars along with the new comics.

[Steve Topper]

Retailers will remember VALIANT from the 90's only if they're stupid enough to not know that VEI is a different group by reading about it online or through Diamond, or VEI doesn't tell them that they are a different group during those meetings.

Retailers aren't stupid. They're business people trying to make a living. They could care less about management teams. They care about selling comics. Valiant, as a brand, is sitting in boxes being sold for pennies on an initial investment. A couple of "suits" promising a new Valiant that is just like the old Shooter Valiant isn't anything new. It's old school Valiant and old school Valiant doesn't sell in their stores.

Customers are the deciding factor, not Jason or Dinesh's promises of a new Valiant. If customers don't request Valiant comics, retailers won't order many copies, no matter what sales pitch VEI gives at evening seminars at expensive conventions.

Packaging might help to sell off old stock, but then you're asking that retailer to re-invest in something he just liquidated. No smart retailer would do that. That's called "throwing good money after bad."

[ManofTheAtom]

Retailers will remember VALIANT from the 90's only if they're stupid enough to not know that VEI is a different group by reading about it online or through Diamond, or VEI doesn't tell them that they are a different group during those meetings.

Retailers aren't stupid. They're business people trying to make a living. They could care less about management teams. They care about selling comics. Valiant, as a brand, is sitting in boxes being sold for pennies on an initial investment. A couple of "suits" promising a new Valiant that is just like the old Shooter Valiant isn't anything new. It's old school Valiant and old school Valiant doesn't sell in their stores.

Customers are the deciding factor, not Jason or Dinesh's promises of a new Valiant. If customers don't request Valiant comics, retailers won't order many copies, no matter what sales pitch VEI gives at evening seminars at expensive conventions.

Packaging might help to sell off old stock, but then you're asking that retailer to re-invest in something he just liquidated. No smart retailer would do that. That's called "throwing good money after bad."

By that logic, retailers shouldn't sell Spider-Man comics given the clone saga fiasco from the 90's.

[Chiclo]

Retailers will remember VALIANT from the 90's only if they're stupid enough to not know that VEI is a different group by reading about it online or through Diamond, or VEI doesn't tell them that they are a different group during those meetings.

Retailers aren't stupid. They're business people trying to make a living. They could care less about management teams. They care about selling comics. Valiant, as a brand, is sitting in boxes being sold for pennies on an initial investment. A couple of "suits" promising a new Valiant that is just like the old Shooter Valiant isn't anything new. It's old school Valiant and old school Valiant doesn't sell in their stores.

Customers are the deciding factor, not Jason or Dinesh's promises of a new Valiant. If customers don't request Valiant comics, retailers won't order many copies, no matter what sales pitch VEI gives at evening seminars at expensive conventions.

Packaging might help to sell off old stock, but then you're asking that retailer to re-invest in something he just liquidated. No smart retailer would do that. That's called "throwing good money after bad."

By that logic, retailers shouldn't sell Spider-Man comics given the clone saga fiasco from the 90's.

I've been saying that for years.

They should buy Gambit comics instead.

[ManofTheAtom]

Retailers will remember VALIANT from the 90's only if they're stupid enough to not know that VEI is a different group by reading about it online or through Diamond, or VEI doesn't tell them that they are a different group during those meetings.

Retailers aren't stupid. They're business people trying to make a living. They could care less about management teams. They care about selling comics. Valiant, as a brand, is sitting in boxes being sold for pennies on an initial investment. A couple of "suits" promising a new Valiant that is just like the old Shooter Valiant isn't anything new. It's old school Valiant and old school Valiant doesn't sell in their stores.

Customers are the deciding factor, not Jason or Dinesh's promises of a new Valiant. If customers don't request Valiant comics, retailers won't order many copies, no matter what sales pitch VEI gives at evening seminars at expensive conventions.

Packaging might help to sell off old stock, but then you're asking that retailer to re-invest in something he just liquidated. No smart retailer would do that. That's called "throwing good money after bad."

By that logic, retailers shouldn't sell Spider-Man comics given the clone saga fiasco from the 90's.

I've been saying that for years.

They should buy Gambit comics instead.

You would say that, Fabian, since it's the comic you wrote after you killed VALIANT.

[Steve Topper]

Yes, you're right MOTA, as always.

Retailers should stop using their ordering systems and just order whatever Valiant comics VEI publishes. They should order as many as you tell them because they're too stupid to run their own businesses.

Everybody else is stupid and you have all of the answers. VEI should publish VALIANT COmics just like the VALIANT Comics of old. And those comics should be different from the VALIANT Comics of the past because the new management is different.

No Massarsky or Layton, just Jason, Dinesh and Walter. But wasn't Walter part of Acclaim? So this new management team has some old management as well? But it's all-new VALIANT just with only one old guy.

So how many copies of each new VALIANT title should I tell my retailer to buy? Since it doesn't matter what his previous experience was, he needs somebody who isn't stupid to tell him how many to buy. ANd since nobody else qualifies as being not stupid, that leaves only you. So how many copies should my (and every other) retailer buy?

You've got all the answers, tell us, oh wise one!

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, you're right MOTA, as always.

Retailers should stop using their ordering systems and just order whatever Valiant comics VEI publishes. They should order as many as you tell them because they're too stupid to run their own businesses.

Everybody else is stupid and you have all of the answers. VEI should publish VALIANT COmics just like the VALIANT Comics of old. And those comics should be different from the VALIANT Comics of the past because the new management is different.

No Massarsky or Layton, just Jason, Dinesh and Walter. But wasn't Walter part of Acclaim? So this new management team has some old management as well? But it's all-new VALIANT just with only one old guy.

So how many copies of each new VALIANT title should I tell my retailer to buy? Since it doesn't matter what his previous experience was, he needs somebody who isn't stupid to tell him how many to buy. ANd since nobody else qualifies as being not stupid, that leaves only you. So how many copies should my (and every other) retailer buy?

You've got all the answers, tell us, oh wise one!

It didn't take you long to revert to your *SQUEE* behavior, huh?

Where did I loose you, exactly? At what point did the conversation go over your head?

For one thing, Walter was not involved with the overprinting, Birthquake, or VH 2 (though he was there for the aftermath of the U2K *SQUEE* - or SNAFU, to be censor-friendly-).

Which part of "VEI is comparable to Toy Biz, which bought Marvel and changed the management style of how the company was run" fails to register?

Which part of "retailers get to interact with publishers at conventions" doesn't register?

Do the retailers in your area have their stores in caves (I know a couple here who are proud to have their store three stories UNDERGROUND, AWAY from pedestrian traffic, so maybe over where you are they do too), or do they have access to the Internet and talk with their customers?

ANY idiot on this planet with access to the Internet can figure out that the people that own VALIANT today are as different from the ones that owned it in the 90's just like the people who own Marvel today are different from the people that owned them in the 90's.

As said many times over now (once should have been enough, but you just don't get it, do you?), during conventions retailers get to meet with publishers and discuss their concerns, like for instance, how the management of the new company would be different from the original one.

All you're focusing on is fanboyism and ignorance.

If being unable to sell a crappy comic from the 90's was enough of a deterrent to keep a retailer from ordering new product today, then NO STORE ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET WOULD SELL ANY COMICS AT ALL.

Do you really think, in your puny head, that retailers only have boxes of VALIANT laying around taking space?

They have boxes of comics from every single publisher that existed in the 90's taking space, from DC, to Marvel, to Image, to Awesome, and VALIANT.

That doesn't stop them from ordering from DC, Marvel, and Image. Why should it stop them from ordering from VALIANT?

We've been over this argument over and over again all day and you still haven't offered anything tangible to back up your side of it, other than, fanboyism and ignorance, and when faced with the inability to support your argument you resort to insults.

[Steve Topper]

And calling people stupid over and over isn't insulting?

What a freaking tool! You should wake up and get a job. Make some money and have people depend on you for their livelihood.

You haven't offered anything except your own opinions on what retailers (those people who actually work in the comics industry) should do. Your opinions which by definition are nothing but "fanboyism" since you aren't in the industry either.

It's apparent you know as much about this subject as you do everything else -- nothing.

See ya. Go back to ranting about how stupid everybody else is. I'm done with you.

[ManofTheAtom]

And calling people stupid over and over isn't insulting?

What a freaking tool! You should wake up and get a job. Make some money and have people depend on you for their livelihood.

You haven't offered anything except your own opinions on what retailers (those people who actually work in the comics industry) should do. Your opinions which by definition are nothing but "fanboyism" since you aren't in the industry either.

It's apparent you know as much about this subject as you do everything else -- nothing.

See ya. Go back to ranting about how stupid everybody else is. I'm done with you.

I'm not the one that suggested that retailers were too stupid to know that VEI isn't owned by Voyager or Acclaim (I did use the word first, but it was in relation to the implication you, Chiclo Nicieza, and Proyas made about retailers).

In fact it's the opposite, I've told you more than once that retailers are not in the dark about things like that as you think, and offered the example of the meetings between retailers and publishers at conventions as proof.

You, Proyas, and Chiclo Nicieza are the ones who constantly ignore this facet of the industry to insist that retailers have no way of knowing who VEI is, how they operate, and how they are different from Voyager and Acclaim because you either want VALIANT to crossover with DC and Marvel out of desperation or don't want them to sell at all.

[slym2none]

I find it more insulting that MotA is calling Chiclo "Fabian" and "Chiclo Nicieza" repeatedly.

Although it was funny to see MotA take the bait with C-Lo's line about Gambit comics...





-slym

[Brother J]

I think what MOTA fails to grasp in this case is that most retailers are too busy or just too apathetic to investigate every new publisher out there and learn something about them. I think many of us would attest to the fact that many dealers are slug-like in their laziness. I guarantee there are TONS of dealers who are just going to hear the words "Valiant Comics" and just say, "That junk didn't sell back in the day and I was stuck with a lot of worthless books, so I'm not going to order jack *SQUEE* from them!"

VEI's marketing department has their work cut out for them.

[geocarr]

I think what MOTA fails to grasp in this case is that most retailers are too busy or just too apathetic to investigate every new publisher out there and learn something about them. I think many of us would attest to the fact that many dealers are slug-like in their laziness. I guarantee there are TONS of dealers who are just going to hear the words "Valiant Comics" and just say, "That junk didn't sell back in the day and I was stuck with a lot of worthless books, so I'm not going to order jack *SQUEE* from them!"

VEI's marketing department has their work cut out for them.

Si, Senor. And I think this may have been stated previously, but I don't think any but a small percentage of comic retailers attend those larger cons where the publishers meet with the retailers. What are the rest of the retailers to rely on to convince them to give VEI a try?

[Cyberstrike]

I think what MOTA fails to grasp in this case is that most retailers are too busy or just too apathetic to investigate every new publisher out there and learn something about them. I think many of us would attest to the fact that many dealers are slug-like in their laziness. I guarantee there are TONS of dealers who are just going to hear the words "Valiant Comics" and just say, "That junk didn't sell back in the day and I was stuck with a lot of worthless books, so I'm not going to order jack *SQUEE* from them!"

VEI's marketing department has their work cut out for them.

Si, Senor. And I think this may have been stated previously, but I don't think any but a small percentage of comic retailers attend those larger cons where the publishers meet with the retailers. What are the rest of the retailers to rely on to convince them to give VEI a try?

Exactly! The last time I heard the Comic Carnival doesn't even go to the small bi-monthly local conventions here in Indianapolis; much less go to the big super cons like SDCC and Wizard World Chicago. And I very much doubt that the other chain, Downtown Comics, do as well.

I might be wrong though.

[ncameron]

Which part of "VEI is comparable to Toy Biz, which bought Marvel and changed the management style of how the company was run" fails to register?

Did any retail stores actually care when Toy Biz bought Marvel? I thought they were more excited when Marvel came back to diamond so that they only had to fill out one invoice again.

If I am selling a product, we'll use widgets as thats what they tend to use in Finance classes. The company suppling the widgets gets bought out by another company. If on the retail end there is no noticeable change to the widgets, prices stay the same, why would I care if their management changed policies. It's a non-issue. It would not matter if it was Toy Biz, Vivid Video or Johnson and Johnson.

ANY idiot on this planet with access to the Internet can figure out that the people that own VALIANT today are as different from the ones that owned it in the 90's just like the people who own Marvel today are different from the people that owned them in the 90's.

Again did it change buying habits when Acclaim bought Valiant in 94, imho not really. Store owners get excited by product that sells, not management teams.

Do you really think, in your puny head, that retailers only have boxes of VALIANT laying around taking space?

In my experience scourging the quarter bins, I wouldnt say only but I would say a significant percentage of comic shops are sitting on Valiant books in some cases 50%-33% of their clearance items.

That doesn't stop them from ordering from DC, Marvel, and Image. Why should it stop them from ordering from VALIANT?

I would guess if Valiant had not closed up shop and kept publishing they would still be ordered as well. As it is with the doors closed since 99, they are coming in as a new company. Though with a bit of name recognition which in VEI's case is both a positive and a negative.

The real tough issue will be breaking through from the slums of the diamond catalogue to even get noticed.

-neil

[X-O HoboJoe]

IMHO, the only thing that will make many LCS's order new VEI monthlies is customers walking in and asking for them.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think what MOTA fails to grasp in this case is that most retailers are too busy or just too apathetic to investigate every new publisher out there and learn something about them. I think many of us would attest to the fact that many dealers are slug-like in their laziness. I guarantee there are TONS of dealers who are just going to hear the words "Valiant Comics" and just say, "That junk didn't sell back in the day and I was stuck with a lot of worthless books, so I'm not going to order jack *SQUEE* from them!"

VEI's marketing department has their work cut out for them.

Si, Senor. And I think this may have been stated previously, but I don't think any but a small percentage of comic retailers attend those larger cons where the publishers meet with the retailers. What are the rest of the retailers to rely on to convince them to give VEI a try?

The Internet, their customers, Diamond, and VEI itself, just to name a few sources.

[ManofTheAtom]

Did any retail stores actually care when Toy Biz bought Marvel? I thought they were more excited when Marvel came back to diamond so that they only had to fill out one invoice again.

Which only happened due to the different management styles/direction.

The old management wanted their own distributor. The new management wanted to deal with Diamond.

If I am selling a product, we'll use widgets as thats what they tend to use in Finance classes. The company suppling the widgets gets bought out by another company. If on the retail end there is no noticeable change to the widgets, prices stay the same, why would I care if their management changed policies. It's a non-issue. It would not matter if it was Toy Biz, Vivid Video or Johnson and Johnson.

Except that if Marvel had not changed management, they might not have gone back to Diamond and instead been adamant to continue with their own distribution.

Again did it change buying habits when Acclaim bought Valiant in 94, imho not really. Store owners get excited by product that sells, not management teams.

Management tends to determine the shape that the product will take.

When Nicieza managed Acclaim Comics, we got a pile of goat *SQUEE*.

If we're lucky, the VEI management won't give us, or the retailers, a pile of *SQUEE*.

In my experience scourging the quarter bins, I wouldnt say only but I would say a significant percentage of comic shops are sitting on Valiant books in some cases 50%-33% of their clearance items.

I've never seen that much VALIANT in Canadian or American stores. I saw a ton of Image and Image related studios at one of the stores TKWill took me to in Vegas.

I would guess if Valiant had not closed up shop and kept publishing they would still be ordered as well. As it is with the doors closed since 99, they are coming in as a new company. Though with a bit of name recognition which in VEI's case is both a positive and a negative.

The name recognition is a positive. It's the perception of the management style that is giving them a negative as, has been proven by Chiclo Nicieza and others here, some people might think that VALIANT 2008 will do to them what VALIANT 1998 did.

The real tough issue will be breaking through from the slums of the diamond catalogue to even get noticed.

It would be to their benefit to become a premiere publisher. Crossgen was the last one that came the closest to achieve that, but didn't quite make it.