Queer eye for a straight guy- Sting?!!!!!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:27 am

shaxper wrote: Again, cultural programming gets in the way. For all intents and purposes, most of us here are straight. I'm just saying that limitation is imposed more by culture than nature. In ancient Greece, many more of us would probably have had a few gay experiences.

That's really, of course, at the root of it. When you get right down to it, bodies are bodies; there's nothing inherently disgusting or unhealthy about EITHER gender, of course, but because of our Judeo/Christian background, the Western world has been trained to think it's 'wrong', 'gross', 'disgusting', etc.

Not that the Judeo/Christian ethic is BAD; quite the contrary. But, the proscriptions against homosexuality were designed for a very specific reason: to keep the Isrealites ALIVE and REPRODUCING in a hostile environment.

Those conditions simply don't exist anymore.

So, now, we've got ancient religious overtones proscribing something that no one understood at the time, which is BARELY mentioned in the scriptures OF said religious tradition, but, due to centuries of cultural brainwashing, exists to this day.

And, of course, in Ancient Greece, Rome, and other cultures it was perfectly acceptable to have lovers of both sexes, provided you produced children if you were of the nobility.

And Greece and Rome were superpowers for CENTURIES longer than the US....

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:31 am

Well said.

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:35 am

You miss alot from not checking the board in a few days. I did a term paper on this last semester (I know that doesn't make me authoratative (specially when I can't spell)). But a couple of points:

The identical twin experiment... Failed! It was only 50% accurate prooving that genetics suggest a direction. But that genetics don't make anybody gay.

Two sources that were particularly enlightening were:

Simon LeVay's _Queer Science_ (The man is homosexual, so that gives an edge to skeptics in one direction; he is also extremely intellectually honest which gives an edge to skeptics from the other direction; very honest approach to almost ever imaginable angle of the debate.)

And HopeMaleDotCom:
http://members.aol.com/hopemaledotcom
A web site put up by someone who claims to have reversed his sexuality; very interesting but very realigeous, so some of it needs to be put in perspective.

-Dave

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:40 am

DJSpecter wrote:You miss alot from not checking the board in a few days. I did a term paper on this last semester (I know that doesn't make me authoratative (specially when I can't spell)). But a couple of points:

The identical twin experiment... Failed! It was only 50% accurate prooving that genetics suggest a direction. But that genetics don't make anybody gay.

Failed what? It proved genetics 'don't make anybody gay' (which is impossible) or it DISproved same? There are identical twins who are both gay, there are identical twins wherein one is gay, the other's straight, and there are, obviously, straight identical twins. So....what did the identical twin experiment prove? I can tell you this for a fact: no one has yet DISPROVED that genetics is NOT a contributing factor, if not the cause, of homosexuality. If anyone HAD, they'd be able to test for it in the womb, and we'd have millions of parents flocking to have their 'gay gene babies' aborted.

And HopeMaleDotCom:
http://members.aol.com/hopemaledotcom
A web site put up by someone who claims to have reversed his sexuality; very interesting but very realigeous, so some of it needs to be put in perspective.

-Dave

It is exceptionally possible to claim that one has been 'cured', while at the same time behaving sexually with the opposite sex. The fact that no person has ever HONESTLY been 'cured'; that is, no longer has any scientifically measurable attraction to members of the same sex, is an extraordinarily compelling argument.

Combine that with the fact that there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of 'former ex-gays' who realized the utter futility of trying to change their orientation....

...and you have an incredibly suspect claim.

For crying out loud, the two FOUNDERS of Exodus International (the first major Christian Ex-Gay Ministry) fell in love and ran off with each other!

Bottom line is...you can suppress....sometimes quite succesfully....your natural desires, both romantic AND sexual....but you can't ever 'change' them.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:25 am

The identical twin experiment would have been something if both twins turned out gay or straight in each instance. That would have indicated something. But since we still don't understand the biological basis for sexual orientation, the fact that it didn't work out doesn't really disprove anything. It was an assumption that identical twins might share the genetic cause of sexual orientation, but we still don't know what that cause is.

Incidentally, I've seen interviews with some of these sets of twins. In many cases, the one who "came out" became alienated from their families, or at least treated very differently. Whether on a conscious or sub-conscious level, that alone could be enough to keep the other twin from "coming out", even if they did have the same biological dispositions.

The science behind this is all still VERY questionable when you're only basis for determining homosexuality is by someone telling you they're gay, especially in a society where you get punished for doing that. Try doing a survey in 1940 Germany to see if there's a genetic disposition for opposing Hitler's politics.

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:55 pm

It is exceptionally possible to claim that one has been 'cured', while at the same time behaving sexually with the opposite sex. The fact that no person has ever HONESTLY been 'cured'; that is, no longer has any scientifically measurable attraction to members of the same sex, is an extraordinarily compelling argument.

For this part, I really suggest you take a look at his personal story, although filled with christian elements, it really convinces a skeptic that he accomplished his goal.

rkjock1 · Post by **rkjock1** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:11 am

Wow, there are a lot of people out there who know a whole lot about being gay even if they obviously aren't.

So let me help you around that whole "researchers says" issue. I'm gay. I have always been gay. I have had sex with women. Didn't care for it. And yes, I knew I was gay at least as early as 6 years old when I used to try and get my neighbor boy to pull his pants down for me.

I realize that isn't the case for everyone, but if you didn't believe your friend, then you have issues with knowing the truth when you hear it.

shaxper wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:

No one becomes aware of their sexuality (or much of anything else) at birth.

I definately wasn't saying they do. However, some researchers and groups do believe that these sexual identities are hereditary, and an even smaller number theorize that a child can know early on that they are gay. I actually had a friend who claimed he knew he was gay from when he was a child.. Though I don't personally believe it, I can't scientifically write it off either.

rkjock1 · Post by **rkjock1** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:15 am

I weigh about 200 lb; all solid muscle. I work out often, I rock climb, kayak, mountain bike, and engage in about half a dozen other potentially dangerous outdoor activities.

I was in several fist fights as a boy, own a gun, have a small collection of butterfly knives (just recently given to my son.) And no one really likes to "mess with me."

Am I too bad *SQUEE* to be gay? I'm just curious where you draw the line since I've been gay my whole life.

DawgPhan wrote:
screamingdc wrote:man, why Sting? why couldn't it be Aric, i mean, we all know Ken wanted his *SQUEE*.

but Sting had to at least be bisexual. i mean, he does have kids. his decendent John is the one that kills Harada.
Because Aric was a badass. I mean he was a barbarian with alien technology. How can that be gay? Not that there is anything wrong with it. I think that Ken might have been a little light in the loafers, but not Aric...

rkjock1 · Post by **rkjock1** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:21 am

I'm just gonna go ahead and call bulls**t on this one.

No one is "cured" of being gay. You can fool yourself, you can pretend, you can even claim it to get a book published, but you can't cure something that isn't a disease. Sorry, that's real world fact not religious zealot fantasy.

And if anyone wants to snipe me about the "religious zealot" comment, think before you do. Can anyone out there name even one gay "cure" establishment that does not have a religious organization as it's underwriter, sponsor or whatever label you want to put on it.

DJSpecter wrote:
It is exceptionally possible to claim that one has been 'cured', while at the same time behaving sexually with the opposite sex. The fact that no person has ever HONESTLY been 'cured'; that is, no longer has any scientifically measurable attraction to members of the same sex, is an extraordinarily compelling argument.
For this part, I really suggest you take a look at his personal story, although filled with christian elements, it really convinces a skeptic that he accomplished his goal.

Squirrel · Post by **Squirrel** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:23 am

will someone please start a 3rd thread on this subject

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:28 am

rkjock1 wrote:I was in a small collection of butterflies

The magic of editing. As learned from Fox News.

vikingspawn · Post by **vikingspawn** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:39 am

I wondered if anybody posted this week's CBR "Urban Legends" article yet:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... ealed-163/

*edit* I see this link posted on the other thread now....oops!

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:28 pm

Unblessed wrote:
rkjock1 wrote:I was in a small collection of butterflies
The magic of editing. As learned from Fox News.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:46 pm

This is digging up an old thread....

Chris

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:49 pm

No kidding.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:04 am

rkjock1 wrote:Wow, there are a lot of people out there who know a whole lot about being gay even if they obviously aren't.

So let me help you around that whole "researchers says" issue. I'm gay. I have always been gay. I have had sex with women. Didn't care for it. And yes, I knew I was gay at least as early as 6 years old when I used to try and get my neighbor boy to pull his pants down for me.

I realize that isn't the case for everyone, but if you didn't believe your friend, then you have issues with knowing the truth when you hear it.

Well.

Alrighty then.

That's a first for the board.

t_inkster · Post by **t_inkster** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:37 am

I weigh about 200 lb; all solid muscle.

big deal, I weigh about 270 lbs; and yes, some of it's muscle (the heart is tequnically a muscle, right?)

Sorry, this post is actually just me trying to figure out the "quote" feature

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:50 am

t_inkster wrote:
I weigh about 200 lb; all solid muscle.
big deal, I weigh about 270 lbs; and yes, some of it's muscle (the heart is tequnically a muscle, right?)

Sorry, this post is actually just me trying to figure out the "quote" feature

Looks like it was successful.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:26 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:
Unblessed wrote:
rkjock1 wrote:My erection is as small as a butterfly's.
The magic of editing. As learned from Fox News.

Don't we have a thread for just this sort of thing?

-slym

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:18 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Bottom line is...you can suppress....sometimes quite succesfully....your natural desires, both romantic AND sexual....but you can't ever 'change' them.

Thanks to a sex change you can be one with your desires.

You can be anything you want to be: A doctor, garbage collector, man, woman, and I'm sure in the future, you could be a dolphin if you wanted to.

This has all be covered in South Park (sex changes, "praying the gay away" (to quote the episode), and relationships). Looks like you all have some viewing to catch up on.

siren3-4 · Post by **siren3-4** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:24 am

Unblessed wrote:"praying the gay away"

I love that episode . . . so many great scenes . . .

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:31 am

siren3-4 wrote:
Unblessed wrote:"praying the gay away"
I love that episode . . . so many great scenes . . .

It was a splinded one, too. From the camp minister, to Bradley, to Cartman coming out of the closet (kinda).

Drift · Post by **Drift** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:45 am

As a sidenote brought on by the comments about social stigma, do you think R Kelly was trying to tell us something with his "Trapped in the Closet" series?

siren3-4 · Post by **siren3-4** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:58 am

Drift wrote:As a sidenote brought on by the comments about social stigma, do you think R Kelly was trying to tell us something with his "Trapped in the Closet" series?

I thought he liked golden showers . . .

Drift · Post by **Drift** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:08 am

My personal feelings on the whole sexuality issue is that it makes no difference to me whether they are gay, straight, bi, whatever.

Who they shag is not who they are.

Your sexuality does not define your character, it is just a small part.

What is important is that you live and love.

Sex is just a bonus and as far as I am concerned as long as you are doing that with someone you love, be they man or woman, then that is all that matters.