Up for grabs on Ebay...(ends this coming Sunday)

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

It took the "hot artist" to save Marvel. McFarlane didn't become a superstar, really, until around late 88-early 89 (and, he drew the first two issues of Invasion for DC), and then it was ONLY on Amazing Spiderman. Liefeld and Cable had to wait until 1990, and Jim Lee would work at Marvel for THREE YEARS (1987-1990) before becoming a star with X-Men.

Essentially, from 1986-1990, DC kicked Marvel's rear in terms of quality. The only reason it didn't translate into higher sales (and it DID in late 1986) was because DC had to fight against 50 years of blase to terrible material, with a few bright stars in the mix.

And even MORE....from 1990-1992, Marvel was as good as it's ever been, granted....but DC didn't slack off, and from 1993-now, DC has continued to release some of the best, most quality books on the market, and has essentially dominated the market for anyone with a mental capacity over the age of about 15 (physical age notwithstanding.)

Again....that's not an insult to Marvel. Marvel has put out some wildly entertaining stories in the last 15 years....but in terms of quality and sustainability, not to mention basic age of audience, DC has Marvel beat hands down.

Actually we're totally in agreement on that.

The "hot" artist era is exactly the era I'm talking about.

And exactly the time I am crying foul has been overlooked, very unfairly.

Again, not because I'm trying to win an argument. That just happened to be WHEN I STARTED READING COMICS.

This post makes little sense, other than the "we're totally in agreement on that", which I'm not even really sure is true....

What is it you're trying to say in this post?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Oh I'm a big fan of name calling but just not over "comics"

Well at least you concede that Bat-books were pitiful. If you can name me one story line from the end of Starlin's run up until Knightfall you'd have to be working at DC during that time.

Year 3
Many Deaths of the Batman
Lonely Place of Dying
Dark Knight, Dark City
Vengeance of Bane
Sword of Azrael

There are others, but that's "off the top of my head", they were all stellar, and I didn't work at DC.

See Bats has always been my favourite character and it always p*ssed me off during that era that they couldnt come up with a decent monthly title.

Have you ever read Batman #430-491....?

How about Supes WW GL Flash? What were they doing during the Mcfarlane era?

Byrne was wrapping up his run on Superman, with Action #600 coming a month after Spidey #300.

Perez was making WW popular again.

Flash...meh. Messner-Loebs was telling decent Flash stories. Nothing earth shaking, but nothing drivel, either.

I'm still yet to be convinced though that the Bat-books were ANY good on a regular basis compared to the Marvel books coming out AT THE SAME TIME.

That's fine. No one is disputing personal taste. That cannot be disputed.

But if you're trying to compare the Batbooks, which had all the storylines already mentioned, to Marvel books coming out AT THE SAME TIME....I refer you to: the Fantastic Four. The Avengers. Captain America. Web of Spiderman. Spectacular Spiderman. Iron Man. Thor.

What are the "memorable storylines" from those books, from the era you're discussing (1989-1993)....?

Armor Wars II? Really?

"Death" of Reed Richards? Really?

Captain America becomes a werewolf? Really?

Spidey becomes "Cosmic Spidey"? Really?

Spidey fights Harry Osborne for the 5000th time? Really?

Alicia Masters is a skrull? Really?

You don't have to PERSONALLY LIKE the Bat-books of that era. You really don't. But if you want to state that NO ONE liked Bat-books of that era, and that they aren't as good as what Marvel was putting out....prepare to have that challenged.

(And even in your comment about post 1993).

I already stated after the Starlin-era.

You're repeating yourself. This isn't necessary.

I loved Year 1 and Year 2 so again I know it (which you throw into the mix later), I don't need to discuss it ad nauseum.

You say Year 3, Lonely place of dying, dark knight dark city?

Dark Knight Dark City. Great Mignola covers. Worth the price of admission alone. But how good was the story.

Now you're changing the parameters. Your original challenge was to NAME any storylines between Starlin (#429) and Knightfall (#492), which I did.

And you're telling me it was as memorable as Gambit? Or even X-tinction agenda?

No I didn't say that, but since you mention it, I will: Lonely Place of Dying was more popular, and sold more copies, than X-Tinction Agenda. Was it BETTER? That depends on what you like PERSONALLY. The only MEASURE we have are sales figures.

And how about Supes etc.?

Mmmm...I dunno. X-Tinction Agenda sold an average of 200,000 copies each for Uncanny. Death of Supes sold an average of 1,000,000 copies for the 5 issues of Superman it ran through.

I mean, if we're comparing "events".

Byrne on Superman? Snooze

You can't debate personal opinions. Sorry.

You CAN debate sales. Byrne on Superman led DC to outsell Marvel.

Perez on WW? Byrne on She-Hulk was more interesting than that!

In your PERSONAL opinion. Why are you trying to debate personal taste?

"I like strawberry ice cream."

"Well, that's dumb, as CLEARLY vanilla is a superior flavor."



Perez on Wonder Woman sold FAR better than Byrne on She-Hulk.

And you agree Flash was nothing earth shattering.

Neither was FF. Neither was Web of Spiderman. Neither was Avengers. Neither was Thor.

Compare (which has been my point), any of these to what Marvel was doing at the same time?

I already have, several times.

I know this like the back of my hand because I picked these comics up myself and remember how exciting they were, who in their right mind would pick up George Perez WW over Mcfarlane Spidey?

No, you were a CHILD at the time, and your opinions are shaded by your experiences AS a child. I thought Poseidon Adventure was one of the greatest films EVER MADE...I was 8 when I saw it.

When I watched it as an adult, I realized how crappy it really was.

The point is simple: the things we experience as a child may NOT be as great as we think they were at the time.

Who in their right mind would pick Perez WW over McFarlane Spidey? Lots of people did. What a silly statement.

Yes its a matter of opinion but I can tell you which one has more punch, is more contemporary.

No you can't. Both Perez WW and McFarlane Amazing Spidey were trendsetters, and "modernized" their respective characters. McFarlane Amazing BECAME much MORE popular, but that doesn't mean that "no one in their right mind would choose Spidey over WW", or WW would have been CANCELLED.

We're talking about modernising characters to draw people into reading comics well I can tell you I'm living proof Marvel did it because that is what I picked up as a kid. I *did* pick up those other books and seriously, imo they were so drab and dull the only use I would've had for them was toilet paper if only the newsprint didnt smudge so badly.

That's because you were a child. I should hope your tastes have grown up since then. "Modernisation" had NOTHING to do with why you were "drawn in."



What a silly statement to make.

I would seriously, genuinely be interested in a list post '93 of what DC books you thought were outstanding because that is the one point you have raised and not brought up some story arcs. Notice I am deliberately leaving out the "so-called".

Good. Maybe you're learning.

Kingdom Come

Starman

Spectre Vol 3

Sandman

Books of Magic

Hitman

Preacher

JLA

Jeph Loeb Superman

JSA

Birds of Prey

Jeph Loeb/Jim Lee Batman

Resurrection Man

Y the Last Man

Fables

Batman: The Long Halloween

Batman: Contagion

Batman: No Man's Land

That's just a few.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

You actually do mentione LOTDK and Waid Flash.

LOTDK I can't agree with but I will re-read it and give it a chance.

Waid Flash I haven't read, I'd be interested to read that.

But at the end of the day none of these books can still compare to what Marvel did in the 90's (yes, EARLY 90's).

You know why?

Marvel had WRITING and ART (Great Art).

I'm not talking flashy, pretty art. Just ANY good art. I'll put a Jim Calafiore Magnus or Mike Leeke X-O up with a Jim Lee Wolverine or Mcfarlane Spidey any day.

But I would NOT put a Jim Aparo Batman or whatever LOTDK artist up with that.

And those Bat-books were UGLY.

That's your personal opinion, and NOT shared by many.

If you think Matt Wagner, Klaus Janson, and Norm Breyfogle drew UGLY art, that's your own opinion.

And Jim Aparo was a better storyteller than ANY....ANY Image artist could EVER hope to be. And yes, that includes Jim Lee and Todd McFarlane. You'll find that THOSE guys would AGREE.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Forgot to mention - yes, Vengeance of Bane and Azrael were AWESOME. Some of my favourite books ever. But again, not monthly books.

So? You've qualified your original premise down so much, it's hardly recognizable.

The simple fact is, they were published by DC during that time period.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Concurrent with Amazing #298-300 was Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast.

This proves my point exactly. Ten Nights was good. But did it compare to the introduction of Venom (AND Mcfarlane)? Of course not.

Venom was such a DUD of a character when he was FIRST introduced, he didn't appear in Spidey again for a YEAR. Even then, from Spidey #300 to Spidey #329, he appeared in a grand total of FIVE COMICS - Spidey #300, 315-317, and a cameo in Quasar #6. That's IT.

It wasn't until 1991 that VENOM became a popular character IN HIS OWN RIGHT. Before then, Spidey #300 was all about McFarlane...NOT Venom. It isn't even MENTIONED in the OPG until 1991.

You may have thought he was the bees knees when you were a kid, but man, DO SOME RESEARCH.

As for "comparing"....again, that's all about perspective. In 1989, you could have traded any copy of Batman #417-420 for

And what do you think ushered in a new era of comics? What propelled, MODERNISED, comics into the 90's?

That would be the further use of different printing methods, including offset printing using "baxter" paper, which became the standard format OF the 90's, the "hot artist" phenomenon, the "Death as Publicity Stunt" format popularized by Death in the Family, the failure of New Universe, which led to Jim Shooter's ouster and his attempted purchase of Marvel, which led to Valiant, and the launch of "mature" comics, beginning with Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, continuing with Green Arrow, Hellblazer, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, and Sandman.

THAT is what "propelled, MODERNISED" comics into the 90's.

CERTAINLY NOT "VENOM."

Ten nights of the beast.

Ten nights of I don't f*** think so.

Man, you're smug.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Now what did DC put out with their "Trinity" during that time?

Trinity came out the same time as "Infinity War"....yeah. Exactly.

So you pick a so-so mini series, released in 1993, as the "example" of the best that DC was doing at the time....?

Come on.

I actually didn't know Trinity was a mini series released in 1993

When I say Trinity I mean the Trinity of Bats Supes and WW, as in their big three stars which is what they're usually referred to now what with the new weekly book with those 3 called "Trinity".

So no, don't "come on".

If you had clarified what you meant in the first place, there wouldn't have been any confusion.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

If you're going to start qualifying and saying "oh, THAT doesn't count, because that wasn't a major character title", then there goes New Mutants. "Oh, THAT doesn't count because it was a mini-series", there goes Miller's Wolverine and Secret Wars. "Oh, THAT doesn't count, because that was a one-shot", there goes Death of Captain Marvel, and X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills.

That is INCREDIBLY *IRRITATING*.

That's because you can't have a discussion without getting emotionally involved....you let your emotions overrule your reason. Not a good way to debate.

I am the one saying Animal Man, Doom Patrol etc doesn't count because that is MY premise! IE: That is the point I am discussing - Main character monthly books.

I have EVERY right to say that.

No one is disputing you have the RIGHT to say whatever you want. Calm down. What IS being disputed are your CONTENTIONS.

I'm not saying it to win an argument, I'm saying it because I was always disappointed about the MAIN characters, and we are talking about MAIN characters.

And yes there does go Miller Wolverine, Death of Capt. Marvel etc, you'll see I never mentioned them.

Didn't say you did. Do you know what "examples" are....?

Are you seriously contending that Wolverine is NOT a main Marvel character.....?

I am DISPUTING your "premise." You said Animal Man wasn't a "regular run title." It was. You said "Doom Patrol" wasn't a "regular run title." It was.

In fact, the guy you cited as making DC "more modern" was the guy who WROTE Animal Man.

What are "the main characters" of Marvel?

I love Sandman etc etc etc. I don't want to debate that, I already think its the bomb-ay.

I very much welcome your discussions on this ZWH can we please discuss the main monthly character titles

Already did. See post @ 3:41PM PDT, Jun 27, 2008.

I notice you failed to answer the rest of my response.

Again....DC failed to "modernize"....?

OK, here we go.

I'm sure everyone else can understand it but you can't.

Oh, I'm SURE they can.

Because, you know, I'm the idiot who exhaustively researches EVERYTHING he debates, writes in complete sentences, with proper grammar, using standard English, and making logical arguments.

Monthly titles, main characters.

Thats what I was talking about because that is what I was interested in talking about.

But I can't be interested in talking about that.

I can't because Animal Man et al. are also monthly.

I also can't argue with emotion.

Even though I personally picked Marvel books off the stands over DC books because DC books looked so dull and uninspired at the time I haven't shown you that DC wasn't modernised.

That proves nothing. That is ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE (do you know what that means?)

So you were a kid whose tastes and comprehension level weren't up to DC.

Not uncommon. Happens to a lot of kids.

It also has nothing to do with "modernised." You keep using that word as if it means something directly related to "appealing to kids."

You're impossible to have a conversation with Zeph. I tried, but its an exercise in futility.

That's because you don't make any sense.

I've seen what you've said about me, CC, and, frankly, it's pretty despicable. You're incapable of having a rational, mature, adult conversation without getting your feelings hurt and launching into unnecessary dramatics which lead you to make statements like the one above. It's quite possible to have conversations with me....people do it all the time, both on the board, on the phone, and on the podcast.

Maybe the issue isn't ME.....but YOU.

Main characters, monthly books. My idea, my vision - can't have it. ALL monthly books of ALL characters MUST be included.

Exercise in futility.

Well, if your tender ego is so delicate, perhaps you shouldn't be making blanket statements that are wide open to being challenged, huh?

You STILL have FAILED to define "main character."

[TearyBlues]

SILLY THREAD DERAILERS!!!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Are you interested in having a discussion and capable of doing it with an open mind? Because the words "so called" indicate you have already formed your opinion, and anything to the contrary will be dismissed without consideration.

This is EVEN MORE *IRRITATING*

Again, your inability to handle anyone challenging your premises without an emotional response.

Why on God's green earth would I say that I would like a list of comic books and mean something different?!

I already explained the answer to this quite clearly. You used the phrase "so called", which indicates an unwillingness on your part to consider that it might not be "so called" after all.

It is an indicator of closed-mindedness with regards to the subject at hand.

I LOVE to find new comics to read because I've read so MANY of them I have NO MORE to read. Where would be the downside for me having my opinion changed on something and learning a book that I overlooked was good? NO WHERE. Actually it may hurt my WALLET. But thats it.

The most condescending thing is TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY SAID IS NOT WHAT THEY SAID.

Methinks thou doth protesteth too much.

I-AM-A-ROBOT-

ALL-MY-CONVERSATIONS-FROM-THIS-POINT-WILL-BE-DEVOID-OF-EMOTION

DANGER-WILL ROBINSON!-DANGER!

So much drama.

I'm betting he doesn't realize the irony, either....



It's really simple, buddy: you can have a rational, calm, adult conversation without typing, in all bold caps "THIS IS REALLY IRRITATING". It's not necessary, and it's something a 12 year old girl might type, not a 20 something man.

Yeah, I protest'eth' too much. I like to protest when anally retentive people try and put words in my mouth. It tastes funny.

No one "tried" to put words in your mouth.

You're on ignore. I've never put anyone on ignore before which is a shame.

But then again, if anyone is worthy it would be you.

Like I said...if your ego is so delicate that you have to put someone on "ignore" after THIS lightweight debate, then it is perhaps for the best. For your sake.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

SILLY THREAD DERAILERS!!!

Hey, it kept the thread at the top. Free advertising!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I think I may have broken the poor boy....oh dear....

[TearyBlues]

I think I may have broken the poor boy....oh dear....

NOT!!! And by the way I'm a girl.

Guess bunch of you have eaten a bit too much of the $6 burgers, especially the Western Bacon one at Carls, Jr.!!!

Oh and one more thing, the auction ends tomorrow!

[dbostejano]

I think I may have broken the poor boy....oh dear....

NOT!!! And by the way I'm a girl.

ah yeah it's Business Time!

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[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I think I may have broken the poor boy....oh dear....

NOT!!! And by the way I'm a girl.

Guess bunch of you have eaten a bit too much of the $6 burgers, especially the Western Bacon one at Carls, Jr.!!!

Oh and one more thing, the auction ends tomorrow!

No, no, not YOU.

cobra_commander....