Next "new" story?

[cjv]

I thought VEI couldn't print Solar,Turok, and Magnus, but in the X-O HC Solar is in it?

AND he's in the Harbinger hardcover.

Clearly, a little bit here and there isn't going to hurt

Is it shoplifting if you just try out one of the grapes in the store?

I think reprinting Valiant owned/created stories is okay.

Just not reprinting Gold Key stories, or using the characters in NEW stories.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

I agree, but it is []ipossible[/i] (albeit highly unlikely IMO) that they are simply doing this to generate some cash, name recognizition, or hype (or all three) and then they will simply go in a completely new direction.

Possible, but highly unlikely in my opinion. I think to do that would alienate fans, who are now expecting something along the lines of the old Valiant.

It's possible only if VEI wants to make jedimarley right. I refuse to live in a world where he is right

But seriously, yes, it is possible but only if they want to sabotage themselves.

I seriously doubt, given their actions thus far, that VEI is plotting to hype these hardcovers as important only to later reveal that they were fooling people.

It is just semantics, but I would consider starting at some point in existing Valiant continuity (ie, re-starting the universe after Unity) a partial reboot.

Sure, which is why they should start a la Magnus and pick up some time after the end of the series, heh.

Or, rewrite Unity 1. Instead of Solar sending everyone back to the correct time, something happens and everyone accidentilly gets sent to 2008. Perhaps Solar was about to send them back to the correct times, but somehow Pierce had a final "failsafe" that disrupted Solar's ability to control where he sent people.

They missed 16 years of their lives, and the world went on without them (except for the future people, who could be sent back to their "nromal" time, or whatever).

I laid out the reasons why that doesn't work

"That Elya chick was wrong. She said I was going to die in 99 but here I am in 2009 alive and kicking!"

"We were gone for 17 years and Harada didn't conquer the world? Maybe we should reconsinder this resistance thing, it wasn't needed after all."

In fact, think about it. Harada has now how 16 years to build his empire without the interference of Solar, XO, or the Harbinger kids. Presumably only HARDCorp was fighting him.

What's a HARD Corps?

We picked up after Unity, HARD Corps doesn't exist.

Darque hasn't had to deal with Shadowman - perhaps Nettie and the group made a NEW Shadowman, and Jack is now second fiddle.

What's a Darque?

We picked up after Unity, Darque doesn't exist.

Timewalker has been searching the timeline franctically for his brothers, since they have been missing for 16 years and no one knows where.

Time-what now?

We picked after Unity, Timerwalker doesn't exist.

The spider aliens may be stronger, XO and Solar haven't been fighting them (although potentially Harada has been holding them off - who knows, maybe HARDCorp has deemed the spider aliens a larger threat than Harada, and has teamed with him to fight them.)

What is this HARD Corps you keep talking about?

We picked after Unity, HARD Corps doesn't exist

Bloodshot has been around, but he has, for all intents and purposes, been the only "hero".

Now you're just making names up!

"Bloodshot"? Sounds like something you call a character after a guy walks into the office with blood-shot eyes.

We picked after Unity, Bloodshot doesn't exist.

I think there are a lot of potential storylines.

None of which include any of the characters you mention as none of them existed until after Unity.

They would have to be reintroduced first.

Should VEI spend money (that they don't need to spend, btw) to hire a new writer and new penciler to redo Archer & Armstrong up until the 8th issue so they can reintroduce Ivar differently than BWS did?

Should VEI spend money (that they don't need to spend, btw) to hire a new writer and new penciler to redo Harbinger up until the first apperance of the HARD Corps?

Or maybe they should just reprint the original BWS and Shooter/Lapham material... so maybe they shouldn't pick up from after Unity, but maybe eight months after it (so they can include at least A&A #8 so that Ivar can be introduced)

But what about Bloodshot? Is Rai #0 enough or should they also reprint at least the first six issues of his monthly series (and everything that came before that).

So "picking up after Unity" has become "picking up a year after Unity" at least so that those characters can be introduced without having to hire new people to do it (i.e. use the previously published stories).

It be much easier and logical to pick up after the series ended.

The proposal here is as follows

Pick up after Unity and hire new creators to tell new stories to (re)introduce the characters you listed and many others

Pick up a year after Unity and reprint the orignal material (up to at least Bloodshot #6) to avoid having to pay new creators to tell replacement stories for material they already own.

Or pick up a decade after the series ended and hire new creators to tell new stories that haven't been told using the "Magnus #1" model.

There could be other people fighting a resistance. HARD Corp could be leading the battle against Harada. Or...maybe Harada HAS taken over a large portion of the world.

But HARD Corps doesn't exist.

And the point here is to see the stories about Pete vs Harada, not be told that a lot of cool stuff happened between the panels.

I agree that picking and choosing storylines and plot developments on a case by case basis doens't make much sense. But it doesn't mean they can't do it. Maybe they have thought of a way to do it that works.

They'd be insane to do it.

[ManofTheAtom]

Okay, there is a bit of irony is refering to Valiant as "the world outside your window" and then in the next sentence talking about how a giant, sentient dragon robot that controls Japan is created.

Heh

a) I never said the robot that Grandmother created HAD to be a freewill. Perhaps it was simply a highly autonomous robot that was ultimately controlled or programmed by grandmother? Perhaps Grandmother didn't create another freewill, but simply found one (after all, frewills are "created" on their own - you don't have to set out to create a free will. Other than 1A, we don't know much about how many other freewills there were.

According to the timeline, Grandmother was "born" in 3050. The first Rai died in 3216, by anti-Grannies. That is 166 years.

We have no evidence to suggest that robots of any kind existed by 3050 or 3216, and given that the VU was "set outside our window" and "used real science", how likely is it that they existed?

Freewills are indeed created. The robots are built in factories and then gain freewill through electrical accidents.

1-A was the first freewill after Grandmother, btw. There is no evidence that others existed (or even that robots existed before 1-A's era (you can check in what year he was built in Steel Nation).

No one "created" Grandmother - it was an electrical surge that created her. Surely some other, similar accident might create another freewill.

Grandmother was Japan's central computer before she gained freewill. Scientists created that computer.

Or, maybe it wasn't a free will, but just a robot that Grandmother controlled (or programmed, if not under direct control). And perhaps someone else took it over, wreaked havoc in Japan, and thus the anti-Granny movement started (since it was "Grandmothers Robot" that was doing the damage).

But we don't know if such robots could have existed in the 31st, 32nd, and 33rd centuries in the VALIANT Universe.

Assuming that they did is a supposition.

Grandmother herself didn't assume an automaton form until the 41st Century when she escaped the alien virus.

Actually, the first Rai DIED in 3216, according to the timeline. And Anti-grannies already existed at that point, they were the ones that killed the first Rai.

The first Rai was brand spanking new. That was the implication.

The technology for freewills similar to 1A didn't exist - but freewills DID exist - Granny existed. So it is POSSIBLE for a computer/robot to become freewill - just not the same time of robot that we saw as 1A.

Right, robots like that probably didn't exist. You're proposing that Grannie created one and then the technology didn't continue from there.

Let me ask you this, if Grannie could create robots, why didn't she continue to do so? Why wasn't Japan filled with automatons a la NIO?

I have no idea what kind of robots they have from 3050 to 3216 (or until 1A was created...when was that?). But even if they were different kinds of robots, they still might have gone freewill.

Not really.

Freewills didn't start showing up until Magnus' era, except for Grandmother who was the first, but she wasn't a robot, she was a giant brain.

And, it is also possible that the state of robotics in Japan was entirely different from the state of robotics in North Am. Perhaps Japn was developing positronic robots (and thus freewills) long before Norht Am was doing the same?

Then why didn't we see any other than the Ninjatrons?

[cjv]

I agree, but it is possible (albeit highly unlikely IMO) that they are simply doing this to generate some cash, name recognizition, or hype (or all three) and then they will simply go in a completely new direction.

Possible, but highly unlikely in my opinion. I think to do that would alienate fans, who are now expecting something along the lines of the old Valiant.

It's possible only if VEI wants to make jedimarley right. I refuse to live in a world where he is right

But seriously, yes, it is possible but only if they want to sabotage themselves.

I seriously doubt, given their actions thus far, that VEI is plotting to hype these hardcovers as important only to later reveal that they were fooling people.

As I said, I agree...but wait, that means I live in a world where I agree with MOTA.

Or, rewrite Unity 1. Instead of Solar sending everyone back to the correct time, something happens and everyone accidentilly gets sent to 2008. Perhaps Solar was about to send them back to the correct times, but somehow Pierce had a final "failsafe" that disrupted Solar's ability to control where he sent people.

They missed 16 years of their lives, and the world went on without them (except for the future people, who could be sent back to their "nromal" time, or whatever).

I laid out the reasons why that doesn't work

"That Elya chick was wrong. She said I was going to die in 99 but here I am in 2009 alive and kicking!"

Are we going to go through this again? You yourself admitted that by entering Unity, Shadowman [/i]may[/i] have altered the timeline and changed the facts about his death.

"We were gone for 17 years and Harada didn't conquer the world? Maybe we should reconsinder this resistance thing, it wasn't needed after all."

In fact, think about it. Harada has now how 16 years to build his empire without the interference of Solar, XO, or the Harbinger kids. Presumably only HARDCorp was fighting him.

What's a HARD Corps?

We picked up after Unity, HARD Corps doesn't exist.

Just because it didn't exist prior to Unity, doesn't mean it can't exist - even if we jump 16 years into the future.

They could be rewriting everything post Unity - not necesarilly just discarding it and saying NONE of it can exist.

Darque hasn't had to deal with Shadowman - perhaps Nettie and the group made a NEW Shadowman, and Jack is now second fiddle.

What's a Darque?

We picked up after Unity, Darque doesn't exist.

See above. Darque could exist. HARD Corp could exist. Timewalker could exist. Bloodshot could exist (I assume you have him listed as well). They are just introduced in a different way. The characters (Timewalker, HARD Corp, Darque] did not come about BECAUSE of Unity, they were simply introduced after Unity. There is a difference. (You could make a case that Bloodshot came about because of Unity, since Geoff freed him.)

I think there are a lot of potential storylines.

None of which include any of the characters you mention as none of them existed until after Unity.

No, they existed in the Valiant Universe, they simply weren't introduced until after Unity.

They would have to be reintroduced first.

Bingo, now he's got it. Just because they weren't introduced doesn't mean they didn't exist in the Valiant timeline/universe.

Should VEI spend money (that they don't need to spend, btw) to hire a new writer and new penciler to redo Archer & Armstrong up until the 8th issue so they can reintroduce Ivar differently than BWS did?

Should VEI spend money (that they don't need to spend, btw) to hire a new writer and new penciler to redo Harbinger up until the first apperance of the HARD Corps?

Or maybe they should just reprint the original BWS and Shooter/Lapham material... so maybe they shouldn't pick up from after Unity, but maybe eight months after it (so they can include at least A&A #8 so that Ivar can be introduced)

But what about Bloodshot? Is Rai #0 enough or should they also reprint at least the first six issues of his monthly series (and everything that came before that).

Now you are just being silly.

So "picking up after Unity" has become "picking up a year after Unity" at least so that those characters can be introduced without having to hire new people to do it (i.e. use the previously published stories).

You are hiring writers anyway, let them write what they want (or what you tell them to). They don't need to use previously published stories at all (presumably other than that which VEI has published)

And the point here is to see the stories about Pete vs Harada, not be told that a lot of cool stuff happened between the panels.

Actually, I think the point is to get good, well written, Valiant-style comics. If they are about Pete vs. Harada, great (and they COULD be about Pete vs. Harada, just now Pete has returned in 2008, not 1992). But it doesn't have to be Pete vs. Harada.

Chris

[jedimarley]

It's possible only if VEI wants to make jedimarley right. I refuse to live in a world where he is right

[Draco]

Yeah..... welcome back MOTA.

What he said.

[Draco]

I think a female Rai would certainly be interesting...no reason that it couldn't be done.

Just so long as we don't have
Rai
Female Rai
Kid Rai
Superpowered Dog Rai
Reverse Rai
Bizzaro Rai
etc..




Chris

Ah, cmon dude,

Bizarro is the best.

[ManofTheAtom]

Are we going to go through this again? You yourself admitted that by entering Unity, Shadowman [/i]may[/i] have altered the timeline and changed the facts about his death.

I accepted that it's a theory.

Just because it didn't exist prior to Unity, doesn't mean it can't exist - even if we jump 16 years into the future.

They could be rewriting everything post Unity - not necesarilly just discarding it and saying NONE of it can exist.

See above. Darque could exist. HARD Corp could exist. Timewalker could exist. Bloodshot could exist (I assume you have him listed as well). They are just introduced in a different way. The characters (Timewalker, HARD Corp, Darque] did not come about BECAUSE of Unity, they were simply introduced after Unity. There is a difference. (You could make a case that Bloodshot came about because of Unity, since Geoff freed him.)

Which would require hiring new creators to do new comics to replace stories that already exist.

Why should VEI do that when they can just reprint the material like they did with Harbinger and X-O Manowar?

They can hire new creators to tell new stories that don't replace anything that came before.

No, they existed in the Valiant Universe, they simply weren't introduced until after Unity.

Right, so they could reprint those stories or hire new creators to tell new introductions... which makes more sense for them?

More financial sense even?

Bingo, now he's got it. Just because they weren't introduced doesn't mean they didn't exist in the Valiant timeline/universe.

They did not exist pre Unity. Picking up after Unity means having to reintroduce those characters, which means having to hire new people to tell new stories that replace old stories.

That makes no sense whatsoever when they can just reprint the original material.

Now you are just being silly.

No I'm not. I'm laying out the process for you.

You are hiring writers anyway, let them write what they want (or what you tell them to). They don't need to use previously published stories at all (presumably other than that which VEI has published)

Why hire new people to retell old stories at all when you can better spend your money and have them tell NEW stories while you reprint the old ones?

Actually, I think the point is to get good, well written, Valiant-style comics. If they are about Pete vs. Harada, great (and they COULD be about Pete vs. Harada, just now Pete has returned in 2008, not 1992). But it doesn't have to be Pete vs. Harada.

So they could be about Faith going to Harbinger High... so now pick up after Unity has become pick up after Chaos Effect

[cjv]

You are missing the point MOTA. (BTW, welcome back!)

What I am saying is that VEI may want to do away with some of the stories/plot elements on the Valiant Universe that they don't like (ie, XO Bike). As such, if they wanted they might look for a good "starting point" to start the stories over. They could have either rebooted the universe entirely, but since they are printing the hard covers, presumably they aren't doing that.

Now, they could keep everything "in continuity" and just ignore things (like XO/Ironman, XO Bike, what not) that they don't like. Or they could retcon those stories in some fashion. Or, they can try to find a good "relaunch" point - a point where they could continue existing storylines but also start to develop a new "history".

Relaunching from Unity could do that.

Now, they still own the rights to ALL the characters in the Valiant Universe. Do they have to do use them? Not at all. If they want to use them, do they have to be similar in concept to how they were used previously? Not at all? I was simply pointing out how the character concepts could be applied so the are similar (if not exactly the same) to how we "know and love them".

You said relaunching from Unity wouldn't work. I presented an idea how it could, and presented potential storylines that might be of interest. The domination of Harada (and/or the rise of other resistance groups - HARD Corp, other harbingers, etc). The spread of the Darque power (and potentially the introduction of a new Shadowman that was created to replace Jack). The spread of the spider aliens (in the absence of Solar and XO to fight them off). And then our heroes get thrown into this new world after fighting Pierce and being sent back from the Lost Land. On top of that, they also have to deal with the fact they just lost 16 years.

See, new stories, new ideas, same characters, convenient jumping in point for new readers, convenient way for VEI to define their direction for the Valiant Universe.


I said you were being silly, because for some reason you seemed to fixate on the idea that (among other things) Ivar needed to be introduced in issue 8 of A&A, or that following the introduction of HARD Corps, Harbinger would be the same book (ie, a new writer up until the first appearance of HARD Corp), etc.

If they did this, you seem to have this idea that the storylines, character introduction need to follow the same patterns or treands as they did in VH1. I am saying it could be completely different - a completely different "universe" as it were, and the stories would be completely different.

This addresses the issue of whether or not the characters would appear following Unity in 1992 or 2008. That's all.

I am not saying I would like it - it would basically invalidate alot of the Valiant Universe and storylines that we know (although pre-Unity stuff would still be canon). If it is done well, however, it could prove to be very interesting.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

What I am saying is that VEI may want to do away with some of the stories/plot elements on the Valiant Universe that they don't like (ie, XO Bike). As such, if they wanted they might look for a good "starting point" to start the stories over. They could have either rebooted the universe entirely, but since they are printing the hard covers, presumably they aren't doing that.

Now, they could keep everything "in continuity" and just ignore things (like XO/Ironman, XO Bike, what not) that they don't like. Or they could retcon those stories in some fashion. Or, they can try to find a good "relaunch" point - a point where they could continue existing storylines but also start to develop a new "history".

You're missing the point, and looking at it from a very limited perspective. I'm trying to help you look at the big picture.

If nothing after Unity happened within continuity (i.e. canon), VEI would need to reintroduce every single character that they bought who didn't exist before Unity in order to use them in said continuity.

That means hiring writers and artists to tell NEW stories that reintroduce these characters and replace the original introductions in said canon.

This is a unnecessary drain in resources seeing as they already own the stories that introduce these characters in canon. Retelling those stories isn't going to serve a different purpose than reprinting the originals would, which is to introduce the characters into A) canon and B) to a new audience.

The resources they could spend on new creators to tell replacement stories can better be used to have new creators tell NEW stories and use other resources to reprint the original material and thus accomplish the same exact result.

Furthemore, doing new stories to replace the originals will work as follows.

First they'll do a four to six issue mini series, which upon completion they'll collect into a hardcover.

At a cost of rougly 25,000 per single issue, you are looking at an unnecessary expense of 100,000 USD to 150,000 USD when they could instead just hardcover the original material and use that same money to tell NEW stories.

Picking up after Unity makes NO financial sense at all.

It might be a good idea from a reader perspective, but it's a terrible business idea.

Relaunching from Unity could do that.

They don't need to relaunch from any previous point in continuity to ignore the XO bike... just don't mention it.

There, I just saved VEI from spending 150,000 USD per unnecessary relaunches for Bloodshot, HARD Corps, Psi-Lords, Archer & Armstrong, Eternal Warrior, etc, etc, etc that they would be stuck with if they picked up after Unity.

That's money better spent elsewhere... and keep in mind that I'm lowballing the expense. It could very well be much more than that.

Now, they still own the rights to ALL the characters in the Valiant Universe. Do they have to do use them? Not at all. If they want to use them, do they have to be similar in concept to how they were used previously? Not at all? I was simply pointing out how the character concepts could be applied so the are similar (if not exactly the same) to how we "know and love them".

They do have to use them otherwise they're a group of suckers that paid for something they didn't need.

And if they characters aren't the same as before then they might as well have created new characters (i.e. Rai = NIO).

Why bother to spend money on Psi-Lords, Visitor, or Armorines when they could have just created new characters and call them NIO?

You said relaunching from Unity wouldn't work. I presented an idea how it could, and presented potential storylines that might be of interest. The domination of Harada (and/or the rise of other resistance groups - HARD Corp, other harbingers, etc). The spread of the Darque power (and potentially the introduction of a new Shadowman that was created to replace Jack). The spread of the spider aliens (in the absence of Solar and XO to fight them off). And then our heroes get thrown into this new world after fighting Pierce and being sent back from the Lost Land. On top of that, they also have to deal with the fact they just lost 16 years.

That idea sucks... plain and simple, it's not something I'm interested in reading.

Harbinger wasn't about the HARD Corps fighting Harada, it was about the teens fighting the evil corporate magnate in a (the word escapes me) of puberty.

Shadowman was about a man trying to fight against his destiny, not about introducing a guy in a mask.

X-O wasn't about the alien invasion, it was about the barbarian out of time.

Etc, etc, etc... what you describe has nothing to do with the themes of the comics. It's too much style without any substance.

See, new stories, new ideas, same characters, convenient jumping in point for new readers, convenient way for VEI to define their direction for the Valiant Universe.

Not at all. You're describing a mess.

Pick up after Unity because that's when Jim Shooter left... but wait, it's not true, he left two months after Unity, so maybe we should pick up after that... but wait, not all stories ended when he left, some continued, so let's pick up after they're over.


And so forth and so on.

Be honest, the reason people want to pick up after Unity is not because it was Unity, but because it's the perceived point in continuity when Shooter left... but the truth is that readers have conveniently forgotten that VALIANT still published some stories after he left.

But then what about BWS and David Lapham? Don't they deserve the same kind of respect as Shooter?

Okay, so let's respect BWS and pick up after Archer & Armstrong #12, and let's respect Lapham and pick up after Harbinger #13, but nothing further.

So, playing selective continuity, we keep A&A up through 12, but NOT Eternal Warrior #3 since the plot isn't what Shooter was going to do, and let's also keep Harbinger up through #13 to collect the Lapham issues.

That's how picking up after Unity really works. The break isn't as clear cut as people think it is.

I said you were being silly, because for some reason you seemed to fixate on the idea that (among other things) Ivar needed to be introduced in issue 8 of A&A, or that following the introduction of HARD Corps, Harbinger would be the same book (ie, a new writer up until the first appearance of HARD Corp), etc.

If they did this, you seem to have this idea that the storylines, character introduction need to follow the same patterns or treands as they did in VH1. I am saying it could be completely different - a completely different "universe" as it were, and the stories would be completely different.

You want replacement stories for stuff that doesn't need to be replaced solely because Jim Shooter wasn't involved.

It doesn't track

This addresses the issue of whether or not the characters would appear following Unity in 1992 or 2008. That's all.

I am not saying I would like it - it would basically invalidate alot of the Valiant Universe and storylines that we know (although pre-Unity stuff would still be canon). If it is done well, however, it could prove to be very interesting.

I've asked you many times before not to offer these kind of arguments in bad faith, and that's what you're doing right now.

I'm not interested in spending my day arguing with you about stuff that you wouldn't like. PLEASE offer stuff you actually believe in, not in stuff designed to argue for the sake of arguing, which is what you're doing now.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think a female Rai would certainly be interesting...no reason that it couldn't be done.

Just so long as we don't have
Rai
Female Rai
Kid Rai
Superpowered Dog Rai
Reverse Rai
Bizzaro Rai
etc..




Chris

Ah, cmon dude,

Bizarro is the best.

Bizarro Rai is a white skinned dude from the California valley.

[cjv]

a) I never said the robot that Grandmother created HAD to be a freewill. Perhaps it was simply a highly autonomous robot that was ultimately controlled or programmed by grandmother? Perhaps Grandmother didn't create another freewill, but simply found one (after all, frewills are "created" on their own - you don't have to set out to create a free will. Other than 1A, we don't know much about how many other freewills there were.

According to the timeline, Grandmother was "born" in 3050. The first Rai died in 3216, by anti-Grannies. That is 166 years.

We have no evidence to suggest that robots of any kind existed by 3050 or 3216, and given that the VU was "set outside our window" and "used real science", how likely is it that they existed?

We do have evidence. Grandmother. She is a freewill.

In addition, we have robots now, so assuming there are more advanced robots that are developed over the next 1000 years is not any stretch of the imagination.

Given that the Valiant Universe says that at least one freewill existed (Grandmother), AND we have 1000 years of technological advances to our current robot techology, AND we have robots right now - I think it is completely reasonable and consistent to say there were robots in 3050, and that a few of them might have been freewill.

The existance of robots, plus the ability of computers to go freewill, means that ther ecould have been a freewill robot in Japan. There could have been many!

Freewills are indeed created. The robots are built in factories and then gain freewill through electrical accidents.

The robot it created, the act of turning it freewill is not controlled - as you say, it is an accident. To say a freewill is created implies that someone deliberately created a freewill, not a robot that accidentilly turned freewill.

But we don't know if such robots could have existed in the 31st, 32nd, and 33rd centuries in the VALIANT Universe.

Assuming that they did is a supposition.

As is assuming they didn't. Unless there is something somewhere that says they didn't, they writers could write whatever they want - other robots existed, other freewills outside of North Am, etc.

Again, using your logic, prior to reading the Origin of Harada story in the Harbinger HC, you would have said that there couldn't be a Harbinger before Harada. But the story was written, and presto, now there is.

The same way - a story could be written, and presto, there is a freewill that was the proto-Rai.

Grandmother herself didn't assume an automaton form until the 41st Century when she escaped the alien virus.

That was the first time we know of. A thousand years worth of stories - maybe there is a story where she did it prior to then.

Actually, the first Rai DIED in 3216, according to the timeline. And Anti-grannies already existed at that point, they were the ones that killed the first Rai.

The first Rai was brand spanking new. That was the implication.

The first Rai might have been the first Rai - doesn't mean he was the first guardian of Japan. I am using the term proto-Rai to simply mean some being/entity/character prior to Rai that was used for the same purpose as Rai.

Right, robots like that probably didn't exist. You're proposing that Grannie created one and then the technology didn't continue from there.

No, I never said anything about her CREATING a freewill. You said that. I simply said perhaps she USED one as a proto-Rai. I said she creates a proto-Rai - much in the fashion as she creates "Rai". She didn't create the human being, but she gave him his powers, his ability - creating Rai.

And, it is also possible that the state of robotics in Japan was entirely different from the state of robotics in North Am. Perhaps Japn was developing positronic robots (and thus freewills) long before Norht Am was doing the same?

Then why didn't we see any other than the Ninjatrons?

By the time we were reading in the Rai issues, Granny was entrenched AS Japan - not just a robot, not just a computer, but the actual freaking country. If people needed somehting, Granny provided it. No need for robots at that point.

Chris

Hypothesis - The positronic brain allows for greater complexity and programming in robots. This increased complexity increases the probability of going "freewill" - the more complex the "brain" the more likely a robot will go freewill. Granny, one of the first freewills, was an extremely complex and powerful computer, much more advanced than most of the computers or robots in her time - thus probability wise, she had a greater probaibility to go freewill. However, even though computers and robotos as complex as Granny and positronic brain robots were not common, they did exist. And as such, there were a few other freewills that existed as well - some purely as a mainframe, some that actually existed as robots.

[ManofTheAtom]

We do have evidence. Grandmother. She is a freewill.

Robots and freewills are not the same thing.

Grandmother wasn't a robot, she was an artificial intelligence the Japanese Electronic Network.

In addition, we have robots now, so assuming there are more advanced robots that are developed over the next 1000 years is not any stretch of the imagination.

Don't assume, go with the evidence and the facts from the comics.

Is there any evidence that robots existed in the VALIANT Universe between 3050 and 3216?

Given that the Valiant Universe says that at least one freewill existed (Grandmother), AND we have 1000 years of technological advances to our current robot techology, AND we have robots right now - I think it is completely reasonable and consistent to say there were robots in 3050, and that a few of them might have been freewill.

You're assuming, and you're ignoring the difference between a robot (an automaton machine with hands, legs, fingers, and head) with an artificial intelligence within an electronic network of computers (which is what Grandmother was).

The existance of robots, plus the ability of computers to go freewill, means that ther ecould have been a freewill robot in Japan. There could have been many!

That's an assumption that has no facts to back it up.

The robot it created, the act of turning it freewill is not controlled - as you say, it is an accident. To say a freewill is created implies that someone deliberately created a freewill, not a robot that accidentilly turned freewill.

Very well.

ROBOTS are created... there is no evidence that robots like the one described above which Grandmother could have used as a champion existed within the timeframe we're talking about.

If there is no evidence that they existed, you cannot say "so she created them", because if she had created them then there would be evidence of their existence. There is none.

As is assuming they didn't. Unless there is something somewhere that says they didn't, they writers could write whatever they want - other robots existed, other freewills outside of North Am, etc.

No, writers can't just write whatever they want. What they write has to be consistant with what came before.

Nicieza wrote whatver he wanted and we ended up with XO meeting Iron Man.

Giffen wrote whatever he wanted and we ended up with an XO bike.

Saying that there were robots in Japan when there is nothing to support that is no different than turning the XO into a bike or having Aric meet a fictional character. It would be something that contradicts what came before.

Again, using your logic, prior to reading the Origin of Harada story in the Harbinger HC, you would have said that there couldn't be a Harbinger before Harada. But the story was written, and presto, now there is.

No I wouldn't because there is nothing in the comics that says that there were no other Harbingers before Harada. In fact, going by the original solicit for EW #3, Gilad might have been the first Harbinger.

The same way - a story could be written, and presto, there is a freewill that was the proto-Rai.

Such a story would contradict what came before, unlike the story in the hardcover, which didn't.

That was the first time we know of. A thousand years worth of stories - maybe there is a story where she did it prior to then.

Prove it.

The first Rai might have been the first Rai - doesn't mean he was the first guardian of Japan. I am using the term proto-Rai to simply mean some being/entity/character prior to Rai that was used for the same purpose as Rai.

Right, and that's how this discussion began, but then you offered a suggestion that is unsupported by the facts (that Grandmother used a robot), and refuse to move on from it.

Grandmother couldn't have used a robot because robots like the one required to be a champion didn't exist in that era. At best she would have used artificial intelligences like herself in automated vehicles, like tanks or the sort, but a giant robot, like the one you suggested, is unsupported by the facts.

Move on to a different suggestion that is, please.

No, I never said anything about her CREATING a freewill. You said that. I simply said perhaps she USED one as a proto-Rai. I said she creates a proto-Rai - much in the fashion as she creates "Rai". She didn't create the human being, but she gave him his powers, his ability - creating Rai.

Right, but she can't create a giant robot, the technology didn't exist. If it had existed then robots would have existed for many years longer then they had before the 41st Century and freewills would have existed long before 1-A, meaning that Magnus would have been needed long before 4001 to fight them.

By the time we were reading in the Rai issues, Granny was entrenched AS Japan - not just a robot, not just a computer, but the actual freaking country. If people needed somehting, Granny provided it. No need for robots at that point.

There is no evidence whatevoer that Japan EVER needed robots.

The history of japan was laid out in the first or second issue of the Rai flipbook and at no time are robots mentioned. The only freewill AI ever referenced in Japan is Grandmother.

Hypothesis - The positronic brain allows for greater complexity and programming in robots. This increased complexity increases the probability of going "freewill" - the more complex the "brain" the more likely a robot will go freewill. Granny, one of the first freewills, was an extremely complex and powerful computer, much more advanced than most of the computers or robots in her time - thus probability wise, she had a greater probaibility to go freewill. However, even though computers and robotos as complex as Granny and positronic brain robots were not common, they did exist. And as such, there were a few other freewills that existed as well - some purely as a mainframe, some that actually existed as robots.

That's a theory unsupported by the facts that I've wasted 10 minutes debating against.

PLEASE, I'm begging you, offer ideas in good faith that are supported by facts. I don't have time to waste debating after ideas that you don't believe in and ideas that aren't supported by facts.

Your ideas are imaginative, yes, and informed, sure, but that is not enough to include them in the canon of the comics we're talking about.

Would it be cool if between 1992 and 4001 Solar had discovered the lost city of Atlantis and risen it up from the ocean waves only to discover that it was inhabited by aliens who shared their technology with the planet Earth and transformed into the Utopia we know as North Am?

Maybe, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Solar ever discovered Atlantis... and yeah, I suppose a writer could come along and write it anyway... it doesn't mean it be a good idea, anymore than the XO bike or XO meeting Iron Man were good ideas.

[cjv]

What I am saying is that VEI may want to do away with some of the stories/plot elements on the Valiant Universe that they don't like (ie, XO Bike). As such, if they wanted they might look for a good "starting point" to start the stories over. They could have either rebooted the universe entirely, but since they are printing the hard covers, presumably they aren't doing that.

Now, they could keep everything "in continuity" and just ignore things (like XO/Ironman, XO Bike, what not) that they don't like. Or they could retcon those stories in some fashion. Or, they can try to find a good "relaunch" point - a point where they could continue existing storylines but also start to develop a new "history".

You're missing the point, and looking at it from a very limited perspective. I'm trying to help you look at the big picture.

If nothing after Unity happened within continuity (i.e. canon), VEI would need to reintroduce every single character that they bought who didn't exist before Unity in order to use them in said continuity.

If they wanted to use them. Ideally VEI will be around for years and years, and may want to wait to use some characters...I mean, do we really need a Uzzi the Clown to come back?

That means hiring writers and artists to tell NEW stories that reintroduce these characters and replace the original introductions in said canon.

You keep trotting out this "hiring writers and artists to tell new stories".

They are going to do this anyway. They are going to hire writers and artists no matter what. Whether they start from the cliffhangers that you like, whether they reboot following Unity, whatever option there is. And either way, the writers and artists are going to be writing new stories - whether they are "replacement" stories, or stories that occur 10 years after Valiant "vanished".

This is a unnecessary drain in resources seeing as they already own the stories that introduce these characters in canon. Retelling those stories isn't going to serve a different purpose than reprinting the originals would, which is to introduce the characters into A) canon and B) to a new audience.

Let me ask you - is remaking a movie a drain of resources? You might think it is, but people who financed Peter Jackson's King Kong might disagree.

The fact is that if VEI decides they want to change some things, or wants to exclude some things, then rewriting the stories would ABSOLUTELY serve a different purpose than reprinting the orignals would. They would be able to rewrite Valiant "history" to their liking - getting rid of stuff they didn't like, keeping stuff they did.

The resources they could spend on new creators to tell replacement stories can better be used to have new creators tell NEW stories and use other resources to reprint the original material and thus accomplish the same exact result.

They are new stories. It isn't simply "retelling" the old stories - it is new plots, new storylines, potentially new characters, all with the old characters as well. It IS original material - because in the original Valiant Universe, the storyline of the Unity characters being sent to 2008 didn't exist.

Furthemore, doing new stories to replace the originals will work as follows.

First they'll do a four to six issue mini series, which upon completion they'll collect into a hardcover.

At a cost of rougly 25,000 per single issue, you are looking at an unnecessary expense of 100,000 USD to 150,000 USD when they could instead just hardcover the original material and use that same money to tell NEW stories.

And why wouldit work that way? Why not an ongoing series? Why would they collect it into a hard cover? You know, reading the rest of this line of reasoning, you really aren't making much sense. You seem to be making assumptions about how this would be printed, if it is a miniseries or regular series, and I have no idea why those assumptions exist.

Pick up after Unity because that's when Jim Shooter left... but wait, it's not true, he left two months after Unity, so maybe we should pick up after that... but wait, not all stories ended when he left, some continued, so let's pick up after they're over.

*sigh*...I never said anything about picking up after Unity because that was when Shooter left.

The reason I am suggesting picking up after Unity is because it presents a natural "break" in the storylines, when all character converged, and then could split up again (after Unity) into new storylines. It also presents a relatively unique ability to have the character travel through time (thus, appearing in 2008).

When Shooter left, or Lapham, or BWS has nothing to do with it.

You want replacement stories for stuff that doesn't need to be replaced solely because Jim Shooter wasn't involved.

Don't start making assumption and putting words in people's mouth again. I have NEVER said that was why I wanted the stories replaced.

I've asked you many times before not to offer these kind of arguments in bad faith, and that's what you're doing right now.

I'm not interested in spending my day arguing with you about stuff that you wouldn't like. PLEASE offer stuff you actually believe in, not in stuff designed to argue for the sake of arguing, which is what you're doing now.

Pot: Hey Kettle!

We are discussing things that VEI could do. I think that this could be an interesting direction if it is done well. Of course, that goes for most things. Do I believe it could work? Absolutely. Do I believe it could be interesting? Certainly. Do I believe it is the only option, or the only option that I would like? Not at all.

I have no idea what VEI is going to do. I am looking forward to what they do, regardless of what it is. Might I be disappointed? Sure. Might I have chosen a different direction? Sure. Does that mean I won't give them a chance? Not at all.


Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

If they wanted to use them. Ideally VEI will be around for years and years, and may want to wait to use some characters...I mean, do we really need a Uzzi the Clown to come back?

Uou keep trotting out this "hiring writers and artists to tell new stories".

They are going to do this anyway. They are going to hire writers and artists no matter what. Whether they start from the cliffhangers that you like, whether they reboot following Unity, whatever option there is. And either way, the writers and artists are going to be writing new stories - whether they are "replacement" stories, or stories that occur 10 years after Valiant "vanished".

You keep missing the point.

The difference between doing replacement stories and doing new stories is that they already have the original stories, they don't need to spend any money to retell them when they can just reprint them, like they have been doing, and instead use the money to tell NEW stories that don't replace anything.

They don't need to pick up after Unity to ignore Uzzi, any more than they need to do it to ignore the XO bike, they can just NOT MENTION THEM, just like Shooter ignored whatever stupid idea from the original Magnus comics that he didn't like.

If they pick up after Unity and pretend that the Uzzie stories never happened in canon, when they wanted to use him they would need to tell a NEW story to introduce the character.

They already OWN the story that did that, why would they need to spend money on retelling something they already own?

Let me ask you - is remaking a movie a drain of resources? You might think it is, but people who financed Peter Jackson's King Kong might disagree.

The fact is that if VEI decides they want to change some things, or wants to exclude some things, then rewriting the stories would ABSOLUTELY serve a different purpose than reprinting the orignals would. They would be able to rewrite Valiant "history" to their liking - getting rid of stuff they didn't like, keeping stuff they did.

They don't need to pick up after Unity to get rid of the stuff they don't like, they can just NEVER MENTION IT AGAIN and save themselves a bundle of money that could be used in better and more justified expenses.

They are new stories. It isn't simply "retelling" the old stories - it is new plots, new storylines, potentially new characters, all with the old characters as well. It IS original material - because in the original Valiant Universe, the storyline of the Unity characters being sent to 2008 didn't exist.

And it doesn't need to exist because the story of what happened to them after Unity was already told, in many cases by Shooter, except for maybe Eternal Warrior (of the eight Unity series, Shadowman, Harbinger, Solar, A&A, X-O Manowar, Rai, and Harbinger all used plots from Shooter or the other writers involved in the pre Unity titles except for EW, which we know used a different plot from the one that appeared in Previews).

And the replacement stories would NOT be new stories, they would be different takes on stories that have already been told for no purpose whatsoever.

And why wouldit work that way? Why not an ongoing series? Why would they collect it into a hard cover? You know, reading the rest of this line of reasoning, you really aren't making much sense. You seem to be making assumptions about how this would be printed, if it is a miniseries or regular series, and I have no idea why those assumptions exist.

It's not an assumption, it's what publishers have been doing for years now, publishing for the trade, which is where the big sales are now (not in the monthly comics).

I forget that you haven't read a new comic in like 15 years, but that's how the business works now.

DC and Marvel (and Image, IDW, and others) publish four-six issues stories that are later collected in trade or hardcover format to sell in bookstores and places like that.

VEI would naturally do the same thing if they want to reach that market, which they would want to.

By reprinting the original material they're saving themselves a LOT of money that would be lost in the direct comic book market.

*sigh*...I never said anything about picking up after Unity because that was when Shooter left.

The reason I am suggesting picking up after Unity is because it presents a natural "break" in the storylines, when all character converged, and then could split up again (after Unity) into new storylines. It also presents a relatively unique ability to have the character travel through time (thus, appearing in 2008).

There is no such natural break, and bringing the characters into 2008 serves no purpose whatsoever. The stories would not be better because of that.

Pot: Hey Kettle!

We are discussing things that VEI could do. I think that this could be an interesting direction if it is done well. Of course, that goes for most things. Do I believe it could work? Absolutely. Do I believe it could be interesting? Certainly. Do I believe it is the only option, or the only option that I would like? Not at all.

I have no idea what VEI is going to do. I am looking forward to what they do, regardless of what it is. Might I be disappointed? Sure. Might I have chosen a different direction? Sure. Does that mean I won't give them a chance? Not at all.

We're not talking about giving them a chance, we're talking about what we think makes sense for them to do, and ideally such a suggestion should be something you believe in, not abstract possibilities.

[cjv]

In addition, we have robots now, so assuming there are more advanced robots that are developed over the next 1000 years is not any stretch of the imagination.

Don't assume, go with the evidence and the facts from the comics.

If we did that, we wouldn't have Harada's wife or Rowena. Prior to their publication, there was NO evidence from the comics that they existed.

No, writers can't just write whatever they want. What they write has to be consistant with what came before.

Aboslutely. And thus, unless there is something saying the idea is inconsitant than it can happen.

So it needs to be shown to be inconsitant with previous dogma, NOT that the idea is already shown to exist.

Saying that there were robots in Japan when there is nothing to support that is no different than turning the XO into a bike or having Aric meet a fictional character. It would be something that contradicts what came before.

So tell me - is the idea of robots in Japan inconsistant with what we know about Japan from 3000 to 4000 AD? If not, than according to your previous quote (it must be consistant) then it COULD happen.

Grandmother couldn't have used a robot because robots like the one required to be a champion didn't exist in that era. At best she would have used artificial intelligences like herself in automated vehicles, like tanks or the sort, but a giant robot, like the one you suggested, is unsupported by the facts.

We have human sized robots right now. We have robots right now that are capable of independant movement, basic obstacle avoidance, etc. You mean to tell me that the technology isn't going to advance that much in 1000 years? Really? I thought this was the world outside our window!

Hmm...here is the story.

Grandmother, the newly freewill mainframe, tries to crate an autonomous robot to act as her "enforcer" - the guardian of Japan. She creates a robot to do it, (the proto-Rai), only to discover the technology doesn't exist yet to sufficiently allow a autonomous, powerful robot like she envisions. The robot goes "crazy", destroys half of Japan, leading some citizens to start an Anti-Grannie movement. Grandmother destroys this proto-Rai, and realizes that she needs to create a human guardian. While not under her direct control, it will have the required ability to think on it's own to act as guardian.

PLEASE, I'm begging you, offer ideas in good faith that are supported by facts. I don't have time to waste debating after ideas that you don't believe in and ideas that aren't supported by facts.

Then don't. Don't complain about "not having time" and then still respond to every post!

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

If we did that, we wouldn't have Harada's wife or Rowena. Prior to their publication, there was NO evidence from the comics that they existed.

There was no evidence that they didn't exist.

I keep asking you for evidence that robots like the ones required for Grandmother to create a champion could have existed in the timeframe being discussed, but like always you refuse to open the comics to find it.

Why is it that you can never go get your comics out of their boxes to flip through them during these arguments?

Aboslutely. And thus, unless there is something saying the idea is inconsitant than it can happen.

So it needs to be shown to be inconsitant with previous dogma, NOT that the idea is already shown to exist.

Robots in the timeframe being discussed is inconsistant with the given dogma. If robots had existed, then freewills would have appeared long before 4001.

So tell me - is the idea of robots in Japan inconsistant with what we know about Japan from 3000 to 4000 AD? If not, than according to your previous quote (it must be consistant) then it COULD happen.

Robots in general in the timeframe being discussed is inconsistant with what we know about VALIANT's future.

Hmm...here is the story.

Grandmother, the newly freewill mainframe, tries to crate an autonomous robot to act as her "enforcer" - the guardian of Japan. She creates a robot to do it, (the proto-Rai), only to discover the technology doesn't exist yet to sufficiently allow a autonomous, powerful robot like she envisions. The robot goes "crazy", destroys half of Japan, leading some citizens to start an Anti-Grannie movement. Grandmother destroys this proto-Rai, and realizes that she needs to create a human guardian. While not under her direct control, it will have the required ability to think on it's own to act as guardian.

If that happened, then why did Geoff have Solar send Magnus to 3975? Why not send him to a time 26 years before Grandmother's robot went berserk so that he would be old enough to stop him?

[cjv]

If they wanted to use them. Ideally VEI will be around for years and years, and may want to wait to use some characters...I mean, do we really need a Uzzi the Clown to come back?

Uou keep trotting out this "hiring writers and artists to tell new stories".

They are going to do this anyway. They are going to hire writers and artists no matter what. Whether they start from the cliffhangers that you like, whether they reboot following Unity, whatever option there is. And either way, the writers and artists are going to be writing new stories - whether they are "replacement" stories, or stories that occur 10 years after Valiant "vanished".

You keep missing the point.

The difference between doing replacement stories and doing new stories is that they already have the original stories, they don't need to spend any money to retell them when they can just reprint them, like they have been doing, and instead use the money to tell NEW stories that don't replace anything.

Unless they don't want some of the "baggage" that is associated with those already existing stories, and they want want to start fresh! Then "restarting" from some point serves a purpose that simply reprinting or continuing does not.


Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Unless they don't want some of the "baggage" that is associated with those already existing stories, and they want want to start fresh! Then "restarting" from some point serves a purpose that simply reprinting or continuing does not.


Chris

They don't need to pick up from Unity to ignore the baggage, they can just never mention it again.

[cjv]

If we did that, we wouldn't have Harada's wife or Rowena. Prior to their publication, there was NO evidence from the comics that they existed.

There was no evidence that they didn't exist.

But according to what you ALWAYS say, it's not "there is not evidence they didn't exist" but rather "you need to prove they COULD exist".

In fact, you then even say it in the next paragraph!

I keep asking you for evidence that robots like the ones required for Grandmother to create a champion could have existed in the timeframe being discussed, but like always you refuse to open the comics to find it.

Make up you mind? Do you need evidence that they exist (like you ask me for) or can you say there isn't evidence they don't exist (like you say to support the creation of Rowena).

Which is it?

Robots in the timeframe being discussed is inconsistant with the given dogma. If robots had existed, then freewills would have appeared long before 4001.

Robot 1A was the first positronic brain, IIRC. As such, perhaps the complexity of such a brain within a robot is required for it to go freewill. Previously existing robots, with "simpler" brains and simpler programming, or ones controlled by a central mainframe might not have gone freewill (although the mainframe itself might have, as we saw Grandmother).

You ignore the fact, the FACT, we have robots now. Again, I ask, do you really think that robot technology will not advance in the next 1000 years?

Chris

[cjv]

Unless they don't want some of the "baggage" that is associated with those already existing stories, and they want want to start fresh! Then "restarting" from some point serves a purpose that simply reprinting or continuing does not.


Chris

They don't need to pick up from Unity to ignore the baggage, they can just never mention it again.

That is one option. But the "baggage" is still there, then. Just sitting in the corner, hoping no one notices. But it is certainly an option - just not the only one.

Chris

[Ryan]

Bravo I can't believe it but I actually missed these arguments

[cjv]

Bravo I can't believe it but I actually missed these arguments

I love MOTA. I might actually reach 5000 posts or something with him around.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Make up you mind? Do you need evidence that they exist (like you ask me for) or can you say there isn't evidence they don't exist (like you say to support the creation of Rowena).

Which is it?

From Magnus #1

1-A: "I was manufactured 410 years ago to fight in the Martian Uprising of 3591"

Magnus: "You were the first robot tech officer in the Solar fleet."

See how simple that was?

1-A's model was a pretty crappy one, hardly one that Grandmother would consider using as her champion, so it stands to reason that, since the further you go back in time the more low-tech technology becomes, that any robotic machinery that existed between 3050 and 3216 would be of lesser mobility and abilities than 1-A's model (like comparing today's cell phone with a rotary phone from 20 years ago).

There is NOTHING to suggest in the comics that there was any kind of robotic machinery that Grandmother could have used to create a robotic champion, least of all a "giant robot".

There is nothing in the Harbinger comic that negates the possibility of Harada being married or of his having been popped by another Harbinger who possed as a psychic.

Introducing giant robots in Japan between 3050 and 3216 negates Magnus' purpose in the 41st Century.

According to 1-A in the same issue, the odds against a robot gaining free will as he had were elevel billion to one per century, and by 3610 the number of freewills in North Am was approaching fifteen billion (which made him that generation's 1 to 11 billion free will).

If robots had existed prior to 3610 then by the 41st century there would have been MORE freewills, at least 10 of them (one per century counting 1-A and Grandmother).

Freewills didn't start to show up until the 41st Century.

Robot 1A was the first positronic brain, IIRC. As such, perhaps the complexity of such a brain within a robot is required for it to go freewill. Previously existing robots, with "simpler" brains and simpler programming, or ones controlled by a central mainframe might not have gone freewill (although the mainframe itself might have, as we saw Grandmother).

All freewills in the 41st Century were in fact controlled by a central mainframe until they became freewill, and there were other robots on the cruiser Ottawa that also gained freewill like 1-A, so he was not an exception.

Of course, now you're argueing against your point and agreeing with me.

Say that you're right and that 1-A was the first positronic brain and that such a brain is required to become freewill (which Grandmother's freedom negates...), if you're right then there were no other positronic brains before and thus no freewills.

You ignore the fact, the FACT, we have robots now. Again, I ask, do you really think that robot technology will not advance in the next 1000 years?

What WE have now is IRRELEVANT to the canon and "dogma" of the VALIANT Universe.

If robots were to exist between 3050 and 3216, and could attain free will, then that's where Geoff would have told Solar to send Magnus to.

Geoff told Solar that he needed to send Magnus through time because the future needed him... not the future of 3050-3216, but the specific future of 4001.

If Magnus had been needed sooner than that, then that's when Solar would have sent him to.

[ManofTheAtom]

Unless they don't want some of the "baggage" that is associated with those already existing stories, and they want want to start fresh! Then "restarting" from some point serves a purpose that simply reprinting or continuing does not.


Chris

They don't need to pick up from Unity to ignore the baggage, they can just never mention it again.

That is one option. But the "baggage" is still there, then. Just sitting in the corner, hoping no one notices. But it is certainly an option - just not the only one.

Chris

It's the one that makes more sense, unless VEI likes to spend money they don't need to spend, and waste time retelling stories they already own for no reason whatsoever.