What Really Killed VALIANT: Editorial Incompetence

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:34 pm

BloodOfHeroes wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:I disagree about Psi-Lords not having a direction.

Bedard clearly had a direction in mind, and he laid it out really well in the ongoing series.

The pay off came after the series was canceled in Magnus, when the Psi-Lords attacked the Earth.

That was the story that Bedard was setting up, that the Psi-Lords were not good guys but an evil intergalactic regime that encased entire solar systems inside Dyson spheres to "protect" the inhabitants from "evil"
i never said that they didn't have direction. I said that they were supporting cast characters who were give, for whatever reason, their own title. They worked fine in MRF--I agree. But they were second-tier characters, at best, is what I said.

I mean, DC would never give solo books to Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane, after all. Second banana characters, staying in the background of Superman's book. 'Nuff said.

'cept it never is. Yes, Superman's Pal and Superman's Girlfriend had their own books. It's sarcasm, people, simple enough!

Pfffft.

Superman was so popular, solo books for Jimmy Olsen AND Lois Lane did VERY well. You can't compare them to Psi-Lords.

Lois Lane lasted 137 issues, over 14 years. Jimmy Olsen lasted nearly 30 years, with 222 issues (Superman Family #164-222.)

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:36 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.

I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

TKWill · Post by **TKWill** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:38 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.
I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

pssst... the goat goes upside down.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:42 pm

TKWill wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.
I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

pssst... the goat goes upside down.

I think you are thinking about MoTA's In-Law.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:43 pm

Chiclo wrote:
TKWill wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.
I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

pssst... the goat goes upside down.
I think you are thinking about MoTA's In-Law.

n00bs. tsk tsk.

http://www.valiantfans.com/motaslaw.htm

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:45 pm

Chewbacca was a wookie from the planet Kashyyyk!

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:49 pm

And Pukeachoo is a rat with the little power of a yellow Thor.

ncameron · Post by **ncameron** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:30 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
Chiclo wrote:
TKWill wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.
I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

pssst... the goat goes upside down.
I think you are thinking about MoTA's In-Law.

n00bs. tsk tsk.

http://www.valiantfans.com/motaslaw.htm

I thought HAEDUS was actually pretty awesome.

But wasnt this thread about how Omar and Marts were bad editors.

I always felt the worst editors were those who thought they could write better or demanded that writers conform to their story ideas(Bob Harris X-Office circa the mid 90's).

Marts was a Harris guy if I am not mistaken, so its not shocking he was a poor editor. Correct me if I am wrong wasnt Omar just basically a glorified intern who was battlefield promoted to Editor due to people jumping ship?

-neil

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:57 pm

ncameron wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
Chiclo wrote:
TKWill wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.
I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

pssst... the goat goes upside down.
I think you are thinking about MoTA's In-Law.

n00bs. tsk tsk.

http://www.valiantfans.com/motaslaw.htm
I thought HAEDUS was actually pretty awesome.

But wasnt this thread about how Omar and Marts were bad editors.

Did you read the link, young man.....?

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:05 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Marvel & DC didn't have editorial mishaps until the 1990's, when the idiots of our and our parents' generations took over.

Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm no expert comic book historian, but wouldn't "editorial mishaps" be the reason for the different earths, the Multiverse, in DC? What about Superman's origin and abilities changing seemingly from issue to issue all the way back in the 30's and 40's? He originally couldn't fly and was human, not alien. He was raised in an orphanage, and raised by the Kents. He met Lex Luther as an adult, but Lex hates him because of something that happened when they were friends as kids. This kind of thing was happening before they were called "imaginary stories" or explained as taking place on another Earth. Are those kinds of things not "editorial mishaps?" They certainly happened before the 1990s and were certainly bigger and more serious (ie "badder") continuity errors than any from Valiant.

They've tried to clean everything up with Crisis, Zero Hour, a couple more Crisis's but their continuity is really still a mess and has been since the 40's.

Marvel has had continuity errors too, but certainly not to the level DC has. Or am I wrong about DC?

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:22 pm

And what about the Batman "boners", risqué covers, etc.? OT, but it is the historical precedence. Were the double entendres intentional or have they become less innocent over time?

That damn Rifleman cover still makes me think they HAD to know at least some of the time.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:47 pm

Heath wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Marvel & DC didn't have editorial mishaps until the 1990's, when the idiots of our and our parents' generations took over.
Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm no expert comic book historian, but wouldn't "editorial mishaps" be the reason for the different earths, the Multiverse, in DC?

You call "Earth 2" and "Earth 1"....which were BRILLIANT ways to bring the Golden Age into the (then current) Silver Age "editorial mishaps"....?

Seriously....?

And....it wasn't editorial mishaps that caused Wolfman and company to feel the need to "clean up" the DC universe....it was nearly 30 YEARS of thousands of stories that, again, weren't intended to be "tight continuity" in the first place.

So, I'm correcting you, cause you're wrong.

What about Superman's origin and abilities changing seemingly from issue to issue all the way back in the 30's and 40's?

They didn't change issue to issue, or even "seemingly" issue to issue. It took nearly 10 years to flesh out Superman's powers and origins. He didn't "spring fully formed", like many characters today, complete with origin, powers, etc.

And you're talking about an entirely different view of comics. In the 1940's, there simply was NOT an established collecting fandom who would even KNOW, much less CARE, if Superman #53 contradicted Action #23 from 9 years previous.

He originally couldn't fly and was human, not alien. He was raised in an orphanage, and raised by the Kents. He met Lex Luther as an adult, but Lex hates him because of something that happened when they were friends as kids. This kind of thing was happening before they were called "imaginary stories" or explained as taking place on another Earth. Are those kinds of things not "editorial mishaps?"

Not in the slightest. You're trying to compare an entirely different era, when previous stories weren't even AVAILABLE, much less researchable.

In other words, apples to raisins.

I'm sorry, but you're trying to compare things that are incomparable.

They certainly happened before the 1990s and were certainly bigger and more serious (ie "badder") continuity errors than any from Valiant.

They were not "continuity errors", because there simply was no continuity that anyone cared about. Continuity didn't become important until the 1970's.

They've tried to clean everything up with Crisis, Zero Hour, a couple more Crisis's but their continuity is really still a mess and has been since the 40's.

Marvel has had continuity errors too, but certainly not to the level DC has. Or am I wrong about DC?

Yes, you're wrong about DC. Look, I understand that, taken on the surface, there are a lot of contradictions in DC from the 30's to the 70's....but the reality is, the fans not only DIDN'T care, they COULDN'T care....because they didn't have access to those contradictions.

Therefore, they cannot be considered "editorial mishaps" because no one CARED. They were just creators telling a story they thought would sell copies.

That may sound like rationalization, but if anyone will take the time to research and understand the market as it existed from the 30's to the 70's will realize how true that really is.

Trying to compare that with the continuity obsessed 90's, where every character's facial expressions were carefully recorded and obsessed about, and information on every comic ever published is/was available at the touch of a fingertip just isn't the same.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:52 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote: And what about the Batman "boners", risqué covers, etc.? OT, but it is the historical precedence. Were the double entendres intentional or have they become less innocent over time?

"Boner" didn't mean "erect penis" until at least the 1950's...and while that coincides with the books in question, I HIGHLY doubt that the comics artists of the early 50's were that hip to the lingo to have adopted the word so quickly.

It meant "mistake", and I'm certain that's what they meant.

That damn Rifleman cover still makes me think they HAD to know at least some of the time.

That I can't explain away....

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:01 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:[

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.
I'm invoking Mota's Law.....

unknowntales_ · Post by **unknowntales_** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:46 pm

What Really Killed VALIANT: ...

Same person who shot J.R.!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:58 pm

unknowntales wrote:What Really Killed VALIANT: ...

Same person who shot J.R.!

Kristin....?

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:41 pm

So, unknowntales, what's your story?

Er, never mind.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:26 pm

depluto wrote:So, unknowntales, what's your story?

Er, never mind.

Wasn't there an "Unknown Tales" who asked to have his account deleted a couple years ago....?

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:38 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
depluto wrote:So, unknowntales, what's your story?

Er, never mind.
Wasn't there an "Unknown Tales" who asked to have his account deleted a couple years ago....?

Ayup.

unknowntales_ · Post by **unknowntales_** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:59 am

Yea, that's me, though I never left. I used The Leaf for three years and changed it back a few days ago. As the Leaf, I stayed away from mine fields and just made a funny now and then.

When you keep your hands out of the hornets nest, life is good.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:35 am

unknowntales wrote:Yea, that's me, though I never left. I used The Leaf for three years and changed it back a few days ago. As the Leaf, I stayed away from mine fields and just made a funny now and then.

When you keep your hands out of the hornets nest, life is good.

You didn't need to start another member account, Greg can change your board name from the leaf to unknowntales if that's what you want to do.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:43 pm

unknowntales wrote:Yea, that's me, though I never left. I used The Leaf for three years and changed it back a few days ago. As the Leaf, I stayed away from mine fields and just made a funny now and then.

When you keep your hands out of the hornets nest, life is good.

Ahhhhh....

Well, "The Leaf", I appreciated your posts....even if others took them a little too personally.

unknowntales_ · Post by **unknowntales_** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:55 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
unknowntales wrote:Yea, that's me, though I never left. I used The Leaf for three years and changed it back a few days ago. As the Leaf, I stayed away from mine fields and just made a funny now and then.

When you keep your hands out of the hornets nest, life is good.
Ahhhhh....

Well, "The Leaf", I appreciated your posts....even if others took them a little too personally.

VALIANT is back.
Shooter is writing again.
Man of the Atom survived that earthquake in Mecico City

What could be better?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:59 pm

unknowntales wrote:Man of the Atom survived that earthquake in Mexico City

That's the first I hear about it, heh.

The luck of living in the north side of the city, where quakes rarely hit.

The last time one hit here was the 85 quake.

We do get the occasional aftershock, so if there was a quake elsewhere in the city one might be coming my way

yardstick · Post by **yardstick** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:24 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
X-O HoboJoe wrote: And what about the Batman "boners", risqué covers, etc.? OT, but it is the historical precedence. Were the double entendres intentional or have they become less innocent over time?
"Boner" didn't mean "erect penis" until at least the 1950's...and while that coincides with the books in question, I HIGHLY doubt that the comics artists of the early 50's were that hip to the lingo to have adopted the word so quickly.

It meant "mistake", and I'm certain that's what they meant.

That damn Rifleman cover still makes me think they HAD to know at least some of the time.
That I can't explain away....

I expect there are more than a few of us who do not know about the rifleman to which you are referring... care to enlighten us?