What Really Killed VALIANT: Editorial Incompetence

[BloodOfHeroes]

You know, what might have worked better at that point was some kind of "Valiant Comics Presents" that revolved around characters like Psi-Lords, Geomancer, etc. Although by the time that book would have come out, the forces combining to ruin Valiant were already in motion. Heck, something like that might not be a bad idea today.

BING-BING-BING!

A purt'-near prefect idea!

[depluto]

The poor execution of certain ideas does not negate the fact that the concept had enough merit to have its own series.

It might have been a good concept, but Valiant could barely support the other original concepts at that point ... it was one of too many books forced on the readers. So it never had a chance.

[dellamorte]

You know, what might have worked better at that point was some kind of "Valiant Comics Presents" that revolved around characters like Psi-Lords, Geomancer, etc. Although by the time that book would have come out, the forces combining to ruin Valiant were already in motion. Heck, something like that might not be a bad idea today.

I think this is a great idea. A book like this would serve VEI well if they go with a small line of books.

[cjv]

It's a valid theory, whether Mota presented it as theory or his usual "this is the way it is" method.

Which way do you think it was presented.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

You know, what might have worked better at that point was some kind of "Valiant Comics Presents" that revolved around characters like Psi-Lords, Geomancer, etc. Although by the time that book would have come out, the forces combining to ruin Valiant were already in motion. Heck, something like that might not be a bad idea today.

Then we would have ended up with crammed stories like the two issue resolution in Magnus, which reeked.

I prefer the way it was handled, in that the concept and characters were given enough room to be explored.

Other than the last two issues, the rest of the series was really strong.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Then we would have ended up with crammed stories like the two issue resolution in Magnus, which reeked.

Nah. Think of the "Confidential" lines, if that makes any difference. Short, (semi-) self-contained stories in an anthology format, perhaps, that develop the characters that couldn't support their own title, keep the rights alive, and develop the Universe.

I prefer the way it was handled, in that the concept and characters were given enough room to be explored.

I just think there was so much unrecognized potential. The HARDCorps descendents return to earth and wind up not being the heroes we'd all expect them to be. Could have been so cool. The slow pacing and slow development put me off. I like Bedard's writing, typically, but always ended a Psi-Lords book asking, "What, exactly, was the point"?

Other than the last two issues, the rest of the series was really strong.

To each his [sic] own. I find it fascinating that you like Psi-Lords and continually bash VH-2. To each his [sic] own.

[ManofTheAtom]

Nah. Think of the "Confidential" lines, if that makes any difference. Short, (semi-) self-contained stories in an anthology format, perhaps, that develop the characters that couldn't support their own title, keep the rights alive, and develop the Universe.

But that's the argument here. The characters (Psi-Lords) can support their own title. The concept has enough merit to justify having an ongoing series that explores their world, concepts, and characters.

They are not fodder for an anthology.

When VALIANT compromised and compressed the story in two issues, it was a disaster, not because of the concept of characters, but because the story was rushed in order to take no more than 2 issues to tell.

I just think there was so much unrecognized potential. The HARDCorps descendents return to earth and wind up not being the heroes we'd all expect them to be. Could have been so cool. The slow pacing and slow development put me off. I like Bedard's writing, typically, but always ended a Psi-Lords book asking, "What, exactly, was the point"?

Well, it was meant to be a slow development. We'd learn as Danae learned, and she found out the truth around issue six.

To each his [sic] own. I find it fascinating that you like Psi-Lords and continually bash VH-2. To each his [sic] own.

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.

[depluto]

You know, what might have worked better at that point was some kind of "Valiant Comics Presents" that revolved around characters like Psi-Lords, Geomancer, etc. Although by the time that book would have come out, the forces combining to ruin Valiant were already in motion. Heck, something like that might not be a bad idea today.

Then we would have ended up with crammed stories like the two issue resolution in Magnus, which reeked.

I prefer the way it was handled, in that the concept and characters were given enough room to be explored.

Other than the last two issues, the rest of the series was really strong.

But it never had a chance to survive. I think the market had a better chance to support a book like this.

I will go ahead and re-read the Psi-Lords. It's been a while.

[BloodOfHeroes]

But that's the argument here. The characters (Psi-Lords) can support their own title. The concept has enough merit to justify having an ongoing series that explores their world, concepts, and characters.

They are not fodder for an anthology.

We disagree. No biggee.

When VALIANT compromised and compressed the story in two issues, it was a disaster, not because of the concept of characters, but because the story was rushed in order to take no more than 2 issues to tell.

but if the story had always been scripted to fit in 2 issues, it would work, no?

Well, it was meant to be a slow development. We'd learn as Danae learned, and she found out the truth around issue six.

Yeah, but by issue six I had long since quit caring.

The Psi-Lords did not have a goat on a first name basis with the Legion, that was a major plus.

And another thread bites the dust. Here comes the LAW!

[ManofTheAtom]

But it never had a chance to survive. I think the market had a better chance to support a book like this.

That's a completely different point altogether. We're debating the merit of the concept having its own series, not whether the market's economics could sustain it.

Content-wise, there was enough merit to give the concept its own ongoing series to explore the ideas, characters, and themes in it.

[ManofTheAtom]

but if the story had always been scripted to fit in 2 issues, it would work, no?

A war between heaven and hell condensed to 48 pages of art...

How many pages are there in the Bible again?

[depluto]

But it never had a chance to survive. I think the market had a better chance to support a book like this.

That's a completely different point altogether. We're debating the merit of the concept having its own series, not whether the market's economics could sustain it.

Content-wise, there was enough merit to give the concept its own ongoing series to explore the ideas, characters, and themes in it.

I'll take your word for it. I was just making a separate point.

[depluto]

but if the story had always been scripted to fit in 2 issues, it would work, no?

A war between heaven and hell condensed to 48 pages of art...

How many pages are there in the Bible again?

Man can not survive on Valiant Vision alone.

[ManofTheAtom]

but if the story had always been scripted to fit in 2 issues, it would work, no?

A war between heaven and hell condensed to 48 pages of art...

How many pages are there in the Bible again?

Man can not survive on Valiant Vision alone.

That was only for the first three issues, no?

[ManofTheAtom]

But it never had a chance to survive. I think the market had a better chance to support a book like this.

That's a completely different point altogether. We're debating the merit of the concept having its own series, not whether the market's economics could sustain it.

Content-wise, there was enough merit to give the concept its own ongoing series to explore the ideas, characters, and themes in it.

I'll take your word for it. I was just making a separate point.

http://www.valiantentertainment.com/wik ... /Psi-Lords

[depluto]

but if the story had always been scripted to fit in 2 issues, it would work, no?

A war between heaven and hell condensed to 48 pages of art...

How many pages are there in the Bible again?

Man can not survive on Valiant Vision alone.

That was only for the first three issues, no?

Or until all the readers went cross-eyed.

Yep, I just checked. First three, although the covers of the next two were Valiant-Visionized.

[X-O HoboJoe]

It's a valid theory, whether Mota presented it as theory or his usual "this is the way it is" method.

Which way do you think it was presented.

Chris

"Like a diamond in a goat's *SQUEE*"

[BloodOfHeroes]

A war between heaven and hell condensed to 48 pages of art...

What?

How many pages are there in the Bible again?

What?

Psi-Lords was certainly not Biblical. Nor was it even literary. And, personally, I think Psi-Lords would have been better as 48 pages of essential story progression (for and in MRF) than the 210+ pages in its own series.

[ManofTheAtom]

What?

What?

Psi-Lords was certainly not Biblical. Nor was it even literary.

It was allegorical.

Angels vs Fallen Angels.

Personally, I think Psi-Lords would have been better as 48 pages of essential story progression (for and in MRF) than the 210+ pages in its own series.

If all you wanted was 48 pages of people punching each other, sure, but then you miss out on everything else that made the series work, like the initial mistrust, the road to gain people's respect, and then the twist that they were evil and not good.

48 pages would have only resulted in the Psi-Lords being shown to be evil from the get-go and skipped over everything else that made the concept work.

48 pages are for straightforward stories, not for stories that require that things be set up over the long term to pull off an unexpected twist, like was the case with P-L.

[depluto]

Do you think that twist was in their plans all along, or is that the kind of thing you can pull off when a series is going to be canceled?

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think that twist was in their plans all along, or is that the kind of thing you can pull off when a series is going to be canceled?

I think that the twist was plotted from the beginning.

The revelation of what the Psi-Lords did to pacify solar systems appeared in issue 6, four months before the series was canceled.

And I remember at the time reading how Bedard had huge plans for it from the beginning (kindda like how Gonzales had plans for Aric that went to hell with Birthquake)

BQuake screwed up a lot of plans for the VALIANT Universe.

[BloodOfHeroes]

48 pages would have only resulted in the Psi-Lords being shown to be evil from the get-go and skipped over everything else that made the concept work.

Look at how Giffen paced the Legion. Look at how Wolfman paced New Teen Titans. A panel here. A page there. All done over several issues. Then, WHAMMO! Big-time payoff. 48 "pages" of Psi-Lords as subplot, sprinkled throughout MRF anf Rai, until it was time for the big reveal would be a better way to go, I think. Again, I liked them as characters (well, maybe as conceits) when they were in MRF. They just weren't interesting as protagonists, IMO.

48 pages are for straightforward stories, not for stories that require that things be set up over the long term to pull off an unexpected twist, like was the case with P-L.

Always agreed with that. I just think that Ravenrok was exactly that--straightforward story that did little for VALIANT.

Oh well. Differences of opinion. Makes the world go 'round.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

If we go back to the subject line, I would have to disagree.


Yes, there were many examples of editors not doing their job (that of editing), for whatever reasons (I refuse to say if it was incompetence, negligence, or even deliberate sabotage). But that isn't what killed VALIANT. Marvel and DC have had bigger (and badder) editorial mishaps and they're still publishing.

That's CERTAINLY not a fair comparison by any stretch.

Marvel & DC had 50+ years of consistent (if not always great) publishing histories and the most established and well known characters in the world outside of Disney by the time Valiant came along.

Valiant had.....a year and a half....before things went to hell.

Marvel & DC didn't have editorial mishaps until the 1990's, when the idiots of our and our parents' generations took over.

I was re-reading Psi-Lords, trying to get scans for the wiki. Why in the world that concept was ever granted title status is beyond me. Ditto Armorines. Both concepts were fine, but they were really supporting casts who had titles thrust upon them, as opposed to supporting casts who earned titles through fan demand. Is that greed? Is that capitalism? Is that the result of Shooter's being ousted? Maybe a little bit of all, but the imprefections of the editorial team is not what killed VALIANT.

That was long past Shooter. But you're absolutely correct; those titles should never have been made. It took Alpha Flight four (five if you count X-Men #109) YEARS before they got their own title, due to fan demand for Byrne. It took Armorines 4 MONTHS from their introduction in X-O #25 until Armorines #1. Nuts!

Look at Marvel....granted, they've been publishing comics since 1939, but they stopped superheroes by 1955. It took Stan Lee TEN YEARS...1961-1971...ten years of turning out stuff that the public wanted, month after month after month, on time....to topple DC. But it paid off: Outside of a few "events", DC has never recovered, and Marvel has been the #1 publisher for nearly 40 years. That's certainly longer than the 33 or so years that DC held the title.

As an aside, I'm gonna do a montage of Jillian representations and add it to the Book of the Geomancers, because that's cracked me up for years. She's blonde, she's brunette, she's a redhead. She has long hair, she has short hair, she's bald! She's the Janet VanDyne of the VALIANT universe.

And that's editorial incompetence....

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

It's a valid theory, whether Mota presented it as theory or his usual "this is the way it is" method.

Which way do you think it was presented.

Chris

Now, now....

[Chiclo]

I always thought that Destroyer would have made a better 1 - 10 series and that Psi-Lords would have worked well with a no. 0 one-shot.

Then again, had history gone that way, I could have very easily been proven wrong.