What Really Killed VALIANT: Editorial Incompetence

[ManofTheAtom]

This one is just ridicolous.

In EW 40, on page 11 the character's name is Roy, but by page 28 it becomes Ray

You have way too much time on your hands. Do you have a full time job?

Right now, it is to finish the summaries (9 to 5 job), on top of that I'm working on a graphic novel.

I will give you credit ... you're doing a great job with the info and doing all of us a service compiling this stuff (I hope you're getting paid well).

Above, you did not spell ridiculous correctly, because you are incompetent.

No, I'm ignorant.

I'm a writer, not an editor

Wait...

You did that on purpose!

Nah, the keyboard at the office just sucks.

[betterthanezra]

I finally had a chance to read this thread in it's glory...

MOTA's right plain and simple...

Mistakes ARE going to be made but sometimes they are SOOOOOOO bad and obvious it's clear they were stretched to thin or too busy playing with there Nerf toys in the office.

Did they do it on purpose? Probably NOT but there inability to get the simplest things right was glaring.
Jeff Gomez I thought brought some stability back to the line, It seems NO one else cared enough like him. He was my favorite Editor and I remember calling him up at the offices and just having nice talks about a variety of things.
HE really cared about the books that were in HIS control. I'm happy Starlight runner is doing well but because of his success the Acclaim/Valiant line went right into the *SQUEE* hole.

It also starts when Editors think they can write in the case of Omar & Marts. They wrote the Armorines Mini series THANK god Calafiore worked on it because some of the writting was really bad. So That means they also edited THEMSELVES... NEVER a good idea.

-Brian

[ncameron]

Valiant died when Acclaim bought them, it was just a matter of time be it editorial incompetence, financial mismanagement or wayward attempts to turn any comic into a video game franchise.

Luckily, they no longer control anything.

-neil

[Heath]

Valiant died when Shooter was ousted. Everything after that was just the gurglings of the bloated corpse.

[Heath]

MOTA's right.

(God, I never, EVER thought I'd see myself typing that. Wow.)

Anyhoo....that's the job of an editor. They are supposed to EDIT the material.

They are supposed to fix any mistakes that make a book like a professional publication, rather than a high school term paper.

Readers have contempt...whether they acknowledge it or not...when they encounter mistakes in a book, regardless of whose fault it is.

He's right about what the editor's job is.

He's right about the Acclaim editors letting mistakes through being due to incompetence or laziness or both.

He's wrong to say letting the mistakes through was intentional or on purpose. There's simply no way that can be known (unless one of these editors admits to it) and it's foolish to make such a claim.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

MOTA's right.

(God, I never, EVER thought I'd see myself typing that. Wow.)

Anyhoo....that's the job of an editor. They are supposed to EDIT the material.

They are supposed to fix any mistakes that make a book like a professional publication, rather than a high school term paper.

Readers have contempt...whether they acknowledge it or not...when they encounter mistakes in a book, regardless of whose fault it is.

He's right about what the editor's job is.

He's right about the Acclaim editors letting mistakes through being due to incompetence or laziness or both.

He's wrong to say letting the mistakes through was intentional or on purpose. There's simply no way that can be known (unless one of these editors admits to it) and it's foolish to make such a claim.

I wouldn't know about that. I was only commenting on his original post.

However, I wouldn't say it's "foolish" to make such a claim, if the errors are so ridiculous as to otherwise be GROSS incompetence from otherwise able editors. It's a valid theory, whether Mota presented it as theory or his usual "this is the way it is" method.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Valiant died when Shooter was ousted. Everything after that was just the gurglings of the bloated corpse.

Wow.

Archer & Armstrong #4-12 was the gurglings of the bloated corpse....?

Shadowman #8-43, too?

Harbinger #10-25?

Pretty strong stance there.

You're beginning to sound like Defiant1.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I finally had a chance to read this thread in it's glory...

MOTA's right plain and simple...

Mistakes ARE going to be made but sometimes they are SOOOOOOO bad and obvious it's clear they were stretched to thin or too busy playing with there Nerf toys in the office.

Did they do it on purpose? Probably NOT but there inability to get the simplest things right was glaring.

Jeff Gomez I thought brought some stability back to the line, It seems NO one else cared enough like him. He was my favorite Editor and I remember calling him up at the offices and just having nice talks about a variety of things.
HE really cared about the books that were in HIS control. I'm happy Starlight runner is doing well but because of his success the Acclaim/Valiant line went right into the *SQUEE* hole.

It also starts when Editors think they can write in the case of Omar & Marts. They wrote the Armorines Mini series THANK god Calafiore worked on it because some of the writting was really bad. So That means they also edited THEMSELVES... NEVER a good idea.

-Brian

Well....if it's a Marv Wolfman on New Teen Titans, or a John Byrne on Fantastic Four, or Roy Thomas on just about EVERYTHING he ever wrote....sometimes, creators ARE competent enough to edit themselves.

But notice the ages of the three I just mentioned....

[Vault-Keeper]

Valiant died when Shooter was ousted. Everything after that was just the gurglings of the bloated corpse.

This is what I said on page one. And yes, the rest was NOT Shooter's vision, so it was the gurgling of a corpse, IMO, too.

[Heath]

MOTA's right.

(God, I never, EVER thought I'd see myself typing that. Wow.)

Anyhoo....that's the job of an editor. They are supposed to EDIT the material.

They are supposed to fix any mistakes that make a book like a professional publication, rather than a high school term paper.

Readers have contempt...whether they acknowledge it or not...when they encounter mistakes in a book, regardless of whose fault it is.

He's right about what the editor's job is.

He's right about the Acclaim editors letting mistakes through being due to incompetence or laziness or both.

He's wrong to say letting the mistakes through was intentional or on purpose. There's simply no way that can be known (unless one of these editors admits to it) and it's foolish to make such a claim.

I wouldn't know about that. I was only commenting on his original post.

However, I wouldn't say it's "foolish" to make such a claim, if the errors are so ridiculous as to otherwise be GROSS incompetence from otherwise able editors. It's a valid theory, whether Mota presented it as theory or his usual "this is the way it is" method.

We're in agreement on this point. If he had presented it as theory, I'd have no problems with it. It is a valid theory. But, he presented it as proven fact. I'm just saying, as I hope you can appreciate, WE DON'T KNOW.

[BloodOfHeroes]

If we go back to the subject line, I would have to disagree.


Yes, there were many examples of editors not doing their job (that of editing), for whatever reasons (I refuse to say if it was incompetence, negligence, or even deliberate sabotage). But that isn't what killed VALIANT. Marvel and DC have had bigger (and badder) editorial mishaps and they're still publishing.

I was re-reading Psi-Lords, trying to get scans for the wiki. Why in the world that concept was ever granted title status is beyond me. Ditto Armorines. Both concepts were fine, but they were really supporting casts who had titles thrust upon them, as opposed to supporting casts who earned titles through fan demand. Is that greed? Is that capitalism? Is that the result of Shooter's being ousted? Maybe a little bit of all, but the imprefections of the editorial team is not what killed VALIANT.

As an aside, I'm gonna do a montage of Jillian representations and add it to the Book of the Geomancers, because that's cracked me up for years. She's blonde, she's brunette, she's a redhead. She has long hair, she has short hair, she's bald! She's the Janet VanDyne of the VALIANT universe.

[dellamorte]

I was re-reading Psi-Lords, trying to get scans for the wiki. Why in the world that concept was ever granted title status is beyond me. Ditto Armorines. Both concepts were fine, but they were really supporting casts who had titles thrust upon them, as opposed to supporting casts who earned titles through fan demand. Is that greed? Is that capitalism? Is that the result of Shooter's being ousted? Maybe a little bit of all, but the imprefections of the editorial team is not what killed VALIANT.

I couldn't agree more with this. The new titles just didn't live up to any hype behind them. Secret Weapons, Armorines, Psi Lords, Timewalker should not have been published. I'm sure there are others but off the top of my head those all seemed like titles that were published without a plan to where the story was going.

They (Everyone in charge and the creators) should have focused on keeping the core books strong.

X-O #16 the issue after the big Layton/Sears/Turok story, which I'm sure did some pretty big numbers is one of the worst comics I've ever read. How do you follow up a book that a ton of new readers are going to pick up with *SQUEE*?

There are other examples but that one has always stood out to me.

[ManofTheAtom]

I disagree about Psi-Lords not having a direction.

Bedard clearly had a direction in mind, and he laid it out really well in the ongoing series.

The pay off came after the series was canceled in Magnus, when the Psi-Lords attacked the Earth.

That was the story that Bedard was setting up, that the Psi-Lords were not good guys but an evil intergalactic regime that encased entire solar systems inside Dyson spheres to "protect" the inhabitants from "evil"

[depluto]

If we go back to the subject line, I would have to disagree.


Yes, there were many examples of editors not doing their job (that of editing), for whatever reasons (I refuse to say if it was incompetence, negligence, or even deliberate sabotage). But that isn't what killed VALIANT. Marvel and DC have had bigger (and badder) editorial mishaps and they're still publishing.

I was re-reading Psi-Lords, trying to get scans for the wiki. Why in the world that concept was ever granted title status is beyond me. Ditto Armorines. Both concepts were fine, but they were really supporting casts who had titles thrust upon them, as opposed to supporting casts who earned titles through fan demand. Is that greed? Is that capitalism? Is that the result of Shooter's being ousted? Maybe a little bit of all, but the imprefections of the editorial team is not what killed VALIANT.

As an aside, I'm gonna do a montage of Jillian representations and add it to the Book of the Geomancers, because that's cracked me up for years. She's blonde, she's brunette, she's a redhead. She has long hair, she has short hair, she's bald! She's the Janet VanDyne of the VALIANT universe.

Hey, that's what I wanted to say!

[dellamorte]

I disagree about Psi-Lords not having a direction.

Bedard clearly had a direction in mind, and he laid it out really well in the ongoing series.

The pay off came after the series was canceled in Magnus, when the Psi-Lords attacked the Earth.

That was the story that Bedard was setting up, that the Psi-Lords were not good guys but an evil intergalactic regime that encased entire solar systems inside Dyson spheres to "protect" the inhabitants from "evil"

Okay maybe there was a story but it wasn't a very good one. The Psi Lords series was IMO horrid. With Bedard and Leeke it had good talent behind it but I just didn't care. These characters would have been better served had they developed in Magnus and Rai. Valiant gave too many characters ongoing series when the demand just didn't exist.

[x-omatic]

MOTA's right.

(God, I never, EVER thought I'd see myself typing that. Wow.)

Anyhoo....that's the job of an editor. They are supposed to EDIT the material.

They are supposed to fix any mistakes that make a book like a professional publication, rather than a high school term paper.

Readers have contempt...whether they acknowledge it or not...when they encounter mistakes in a book, regardless of whose fault it is.

He's right about what the editor's job is.

He's right about the Acclaim editors letting mistakes through being due to incompetence or laziness or both.

He's wrong to say letting the mistakes through was intentional or on purpose. There's simply no way that can be known (unless one of these editors admits to it) and it's foolish to make such a claim.

Finally someone understands what I was saying.

[BloodOfHeroes]

I disagree about Psi-Lords not having a direction.

Bedard clearly had a direction in mind, and he laid it out really well in the ongoing series.

The pay off came after the series was canceled in Magnus, when the Psi-Lords attacked the Earth.

That was the story that Bedard was setting up, that the Psi-Lords were not good guys but an evil intergalactic regime that encased entire solar systems inside Dyson spheres to "protect" the inhabitants from "evil"

i never said that they didn't have direction. I said that they were supporting cast characters who were give, for whatever reason, their own title. They worked fine in MRF--I agree. But they were second-tier characters, at best, is what I said.

I mean, DC would never give solo books to Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane, after all. Second banana characters, staying in the background of Superman's book. 'Nuff said.

'cept it never is. Yes, Superman's Pal and Superman's Girlfriend had their own books. It's sarcasm, people, simple enough!

[BloodOfHeroes]

Hey, that's what I wanted to say!

You ARE the only other person I know who speaks of "imprefections".

[ManofTheAtom]

I disagree about Psi-Lords not having a direction.

Bedard clearly had a direction in mind, and he laid it out really well in the ongoing series.

The pay off came after the series was canceled in Magnus, when the Psi-Lords attacked the Earth.

That was the story that Bedard was setting up, that the Psi-Lords were not good guys but an evil intergalactic regime that encased entire solar systems inside Dyson spheres to "protect" the inhabitants from "evil"

i never said that they didn't have direction. I said that they were supporting cast characters who were give, for whatever reason, their own title. They worked fine in MRF--I agree. But they were second-tier characters, at best, is what I said.

I mean, DC would never give solo books to Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane, after all. Second banana characters, staying in the background of Superman's book. 'Nuff said.

'cept it never is. Yes, Superman's Pal and Superman's Girlfriend had their own books. It's sarcasm, people, simple enough!

Psi-Lords were not supporting characters. They were introduced at the end of the war in Magnus and Rai and then got their own series.

Who did they support in their two-three appearances in Magnus?

The concept deserved to be explored.

[depluto]

I think "second-tier characters" (or third) works better. They had their imprefections, and certainly didn't deserve their own series.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Psi-Lords were not supporting characters. They were introduced at the end of the war in Magnus and Rai and then got their own series.

Agreed. They appeared as supporting characters (who could have been GOOd supporting characters) and got a book that, quite honestly, wasn't deserved (IMO). The background that Bedard was building could (also IMO) have been better handled as 2-3 pages per issue. Cut out all the crud & clutter. Even in their own run, they were 2-D characters.

[img]Who%20did%20they%20support%20in%20their%20two-three%20appearances%20in%20Magnus?[/img]

Um...Magnus? Even SVU was about Magnus being worried about them and their ulteriro motive, right?

The concept deserved to be explored.

I just don't think it needed its own book for that. Take out the Ravenrok & RipVanHarbingers, and you could have set up Bedard's hostile police force in 15-18 pages, total, within MRF and Rai.

(Yes, IMO).

[ManofTheAtom]

I think "second-tier characters" (or third) works better. They had their imprefections, and certainly didn't deserve their own series.

Sure they did, it was a really great series. You should give it another chance, it explored some very interesting concepts and themes.

In some respects it was sort of like Harbinger in that the featured characters were all villains, with some of them questioning their roles and if what they were doing was the right thing.

The problem was that it didn't last long enough for those ideas to be explored, and the last two issues or so suffered from rushed writting.

Had the execution been handled differently, the series would be better respected than it is.

The poor execution of certain ideas does not negate the fact that the concept had enough merit to have its own series.

[ManofTheAtom]

I just don't think it needed its own book for that. Take out the Ravenrok & RipVanHarbingers, and you could have set up Bedard's hostile police force in 15-18 pages, total, within MRF and Rai.

(Yes, IMO).

Why take out Ravenrok? He served a purpose within the narrative, to show what can happen to the Psi-Lords when they turn evil(er)

The Psi-Lords were all presented as sort of cosmic angels, with Ravenrok as their version of Lucifer. If you look at the series you'll notice this very clearly.

Bedard was setting up what could have been a really cool war between (cosmic) heaven and (cosmic) hell with Earth as the battleground.

Comparing the two issues of Magnus that solved that conflict with the 10 issues of the series, I say that the series was superior since it made me care about the characters and concepts, while the two issues were just one long pointless battle.

[depluto]

I think "second-tier characters" (or third) works better. They had their imprefections, and certainly didn't deserve their own series.

Sure they did, it was a really great series. You should give it another chance, it explored some very interesting concepts and themes.

In some respects it was sort of like Harbinger in that the featured characters were all villains, with some of them questioning their roles and if what they were doing was the right thing.

The problem was that it didn't last long enough for those ideas to be explored, and the last two issues or so suffered from rushed writting.

Had the execution been handled differently, the series would be better respected than it is.

The poor execution of certain ideas does not negate the fact that the concept had enough merit to have its own series.

You know, what might have worked better at that point was some kind of "Valiant Comics Presents" that revolved around characters like Psi-Lords, Geomancer, etc. Although by the time that book would have come out, the forces combining to ruin Valiant were already in motion. Heck, something like that might not be a bad idea today.

[dellamorte]

Sure they did, it was a really great series. You should give it another chance, it explored some very interesting concepts and themes.

Really? Great? I thought it was horrid. When I reread the whole Valiant run I was happy it was such a short series.

IMO it was a truly awful series. Probably the worst Valiant ever put out.