New Titles By Year's End

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:33 pm

BloodOfHeroes wrote:

The rest of what I said is still true, heh

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:38 pm

Only calling you out on the facts. NEVER on opinion!

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:39 pm

Let me be clear on what I want. I want well written stories. I want ones where the illustrations are wonderful to behold because of the power of the silent storytelling within them. I do not care WHO writes them. It could be a known talent, it could be an unknown. It could be a great, known yet not yet heralded, minor-press talent. I was not saying to bring in the same people who have had bad runs before, or to let them have free reign.

I don't want it by committe. I want a clear vision from the top on down of how things will be run. I want consistency. I am not asking for a MULTIVERSE. I am not asking for BUSIEK or WAID or any of the rest. In fact, I don't think they have the correct sensibilities for this universe. I don't want whoever the "hot, current" talent is. I want VEI to find the best STORYTELLERS that they can and let them work thier magic. These could be names, these could be no-names. I think the best scenario is to have a mixture of old hands from VALIANT, along with some raw talent and maybe one or two "current" people. Perhaps not huge names, but someone who can do the job the right way.

I am also not as naïve as you seem to be thinking I am. I don't for a minute think we live in a candy land of happiness. I know just how the world works and all the petty grudges and politics which go on, both in the open but especially behind the scenes. I will say it again. What I WANT-operative term, WANT-is for VEI to have a clear vision from the TOP. This I think, we can mostly agree on, is why the Pre-Unity books were so cohesive. There were not dozens of chefs, but 2 or 3 with a few to make sure the stew didn't scald.

If one has a Sports team, the owner must fork over the money. The general manager must sign the right talent, both in free agency and by selecting and signing the right draft picks. These picks and free agents must be evaluated by the scouts and the coaching staff, who work in tandem with the GM, who then goes to get the final say from the Owner. I am saying that there needs to be leadership backed up by strong followers who can make the right choices. I am saying that what needs to happen is to find people who can do the job that is wanted, but that those in charge also need to be willing to allow the person to add just enough of themselves to make it work. If one has set a course down a river, but there are rocks ahead and someone says watch out, you do not blindly go ahead and crash. You listen to the warning and avert disaster.

Comics are a collaberative medium. The trick is finding the RIGHT collaberators. You suggest that ANYONE who is known is by definition a "60's FAN BOY that wants to have characters messing with siblings". This is far from the case. I think that if you let a guy like Frank Miller rip away on a title like Bloodshot, there could be wonderous things. I think that JIM SHOOTER was pretty well known back in the early 90's. He seemed to do nicely for VALIANT, as I recall. I never mentioned a NAME of WHO I wanted. I never said anything beyond the idea that names or no names, I want TALENT. I do not agree that TALENT only comes BEFORE one suceeds and that afterwards, "you suck". This is pretty provincial thinking and I tend to ignore such small minded thinking. As I've said before, it is about finding people who have what it takes to make these books work. It could be me, or you. It could be some schmo down the street or even a legend. It could be an up and commer. I DO agree that they need to have some sort of "Knob Row" but in order to do that, they need to have guys like Shooter, BWS, Layton, Perlin and Hall around to help the growing talent. This means they need TEACHERS and I don't mean ART and WRITING instructors from some college, but people with practical experience in the business.

I want to find out WHO they have chosen BEFORE I start crying about the end of the world. The sky isn't falling yet. Besides, I agree that we do NOT want a DC Lite or any other of the crap that has come out like that. I want VALIANT. I just think that we can't expect to totally capture lightening in a bottle twice. Same old song, but with a (slightly, at least) different beat, since they've been gone.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:35 pm

leonmallett wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
leonmallett wrote:Now about your generalisation about established names = prima donnas; can you support that please?
I don't have to, you're the one that has to disprove it.
Why? Why do you make a sweeping statement that you then treat as fact, yet compel your fellow posters to prove you wrong? Does everything work that way? If MOTA states guilt then they are guilty until proven not to be prima donnas? I could equally say that all members of this board with high post counts are red-headed - it doesn't mean they have to prove it to be otherwise, it is simply a generalistion that would in fact be untrue unless I present evidence to the contrary.

You're the one that is campaining to have established names work at VEI under the belief that they are necessary, while xo is of the notion that, with proper editorial guidance, they'll avoid making the same mistakes as before that led to Ninjak becoming Spider-Man, Faith getting a boob job, and a certain four-legged animal.
Please show evidence for my campaigning. Really, it would be nice as an accompaniment to your sweeping ignorance of facts in favour of your odd opinions.

Prove it.
What are you asking me to prove now?

What evidence do you have that they are necessary? And I don't mean sales, I mean necessary to tell good stories.

What makes established names better at telling VALIANT stories that undiscovered talent?
Again you demonstrate your refusal to read my post in favour of whatever the heck you wish to infer instead.

Track records (i.e. BQ and VH 2) indicate that they're not.

BQ and VH 2 gave us the aforementioned examples as well as Crescendo, the XO bike, and all the crap that led to the original line getting canceled.
When, pray tell, did I demand the established talent that you rail against (in in rather dichotomous way since you yourself acknowledge that it was big names that helped 'turn the knobs')? I didn't, you went and inferred whetever suited you - once more.

MOTA - no reply? I guess a tacit admission that you mistake your own opinion for fact, then.

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:26 pm

undiscovered talent=man of the atom?

established talent= not man of the atom

I'm not meaning to be harsh or negative here, but perhaps this is a key to understanding things. Just an observation.

Its very human and understandable.

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:33 pm

I think we need talent, plain and simple. I also think we need ideas that can move the universe forward while retaining what made it unique and endearing in the first place. I am all for getting the RIGHT people into the RIGHT roles. I blame very poor stewardship for the demise of the company the last time. I have faith that VEI won't repeat the litany of errors made previously.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:35 pm

Geomancer wrote:undiscovered talent=man of the atom?

established talent= not man of the atom

I'm not meaning to be harsh or negative here, but perhaps this is a key to understanding things. Just an observation.

Its very human and understandable.

Nah, it has nothing to do with that.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the mark I've left at VEI with my contributions to the wiki.

Do I hope it leads to something else? Sure, but if it doesn't that's okay.

I'm mostly concerned with VEI not making the same mistake as its predecessors, which was to think that popularity = talent, when it doesn't.

Tommy Lee Bones

Gay supervillain

Earth 2

The Goat

Quantum & Woody holding their dicks in the bathroom

Faith with giant boobs

That's just the short list of what named creators contributed to VALIANT.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see a repeat of that

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:41 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Geomancer wrote:undiscovered talent=man of the atom?

established talent= not man of the atom

I'm not meaning to be harsh or negative here, but perhaps this is a key to understanding things. Just an observation.

Its very human and understandable.
Nah, it has nothing to do with that.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the mark I've left at VEI with my contributions to the wiki.

Do I hope it leads to something else? Sure, but if it doesn't that's okay.

I'm mostly concerned with VEI not making the same mistake as its predecessors, which was to think that popularity = talent, when it doesn't.

Tommy Lee Bones

Gay supervillain

Earth 2

The Goat

Quantum & Woody holding their dicks in the bathroom

Faith with giant boobs

That's just the short list of what named creators contributed to VALIANT.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see a repeat of that

So named creators didn't give us Harbinger, Archer and Armstrong, Eternal Warrior or Shadowman?

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:41 pm

xodacia81 wrote:I think we need talent, plain and simple. I also think we need ideas that can move the universe forward while retaining what made it unique and endearing in the first place. I am all for getting the RIGHT people into the RIGHT roles. I blame very poor stewardship for the demise of the company the last time. I have faith that VEI won't repeat the litany of errors made previously.

I agree.

But my primary interest here isn't even about the characters here. heretical as that may sound.

Its about a superhero universe with tight continuity, written for intelligent readers. By superhero universe, I mean a place where superheroes exist, yet they aren't a dime a dozen. And the same goes for super villains.

Even more than the characters themselves, I am looking for the kind of approach towards comic book storytelling that we saw during Valiant's early years. They started out with a game plan that drew me in like no other company ever has. Then they departed from that game plan and thats when the trouble began.

So this game plan is what is critical to me. I still don't know what it is, so as great as the news we've gotten this week is -- that excitement is more about seeing glimpses of forward momentum -- but towards what I still have no clear idea.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:44 pm

leonmallett wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Geomancer wrote:undiscovered talent=man of the atom?

established talent= not man of the atom

I'm not meaning to be harsh or negative here, but perhaps this is a key to understanding things. Just an observation.

Its very human and understandable.
Nah, it has nothing to do with that.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the mark I've left at VEI with my contributions to the wiki.

Do I hope it leads to something else? Sure, but if it doesn't that's okay.

I'm mostly concerned with VEI not making the same mistake as its predecessors, which was to think that popularity = talent, when it doesn't.

Tommy Lee Bones

Gay supervillain

Earth 2

The Goat

Quantum & Woody holding their dicks in the bathroom

Faith with giant boobs

That's just the short list of what named creators contributed to VALIANT.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see a repeat of that
So named creators didn't give us Harbinger, Archer and Armstrong, Eternal Warrior or Shadowman?

Again, you're mentioning 3-4 people in a company that employed over a dozen writers and pencillers.

In contrast, BQ and VH 2 employed ONLY "big name" idiots, who gave us the crap from the above list.

In your impetus to argue with me, you haven't bothered to pay attention to what I've said.

Bringing back Knob Rob would entail using established talent to teach the up and comers because THAT is what Knob Row was.

In contrast, NOT having something like Knob Rob, where the teachers teach the students, would be to hire established freelancenrs who do not need to be taught because they are already established.

Last time they did that, we got Faith the milk maid and her pet goat.

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:45 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Geomancer wrote:undiscovered talent=man of the atom?

established talent= not man of the atom

I'm not meaning to be harsh or negative here, but perhaps this is a key to understanding things. Just an observation.

Its very human and understandable.
Nah, it has nothing to do with that.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the mark I've left at VEI with my contributions to the wiki.

Do I hope it leads to something else? Sure, but if it doesn't that's okay.

I'm mostly concerned with VEI not making the same mistake as its predecessors, which was to think that popularity = talent, when it doesn't.

Tommy Lee Bones

Gay supervillain

Earth 2

The Goat

Quantum & Woody holding their dicks in the bathroom

Faith with giant boobs

That's just the short list of what named creators contributed to VALIANT.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see a repeat of that

Just curious.

I was happy with the name talent that launched Valiant. Name talent was also involved with what i saw as the death of the valiant I wanted to read (Birthquake). But that had less to do with the talent than the lack of a creative center.

Its one thing to have a creative vision and bring in talent to give it life, but without that vision, it doesn't matter what the talent is or how familiar we are with them - there won't be any long term interest.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:45 pm

Geomancer wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:I think we need talent, plain and simple. I also think we need ideas that can move the universe forward while retaining what made it unique and endearing in the first place. I am all for getting the RIGHT people into the RIGHT roles. I blame very poor stewardship for the demise of the company the last time. I have faith that VEI won't repeat the litany of errors made previously.
I agree.

But my primary interest here isn't even about the characters here. heretical as that may sound.

Its about a superhero universe with tight continuity, written for intelligent readers. By superhero universe, I mean a place where superheroes exist, yet they aren't a dime a dozen. And the same goes for super villains.

Even more than the characters themselves, I am looking for the kind of approach towards comic book storytelling that we saw during Valiant's early years. They started out with a game plan that drew me in like no other company ever has. Then they departed from that game plan and thats when the trouble began.

So this game plan is what is critical to me. I still don't know what it is, so as great as the news we've gotten this week is -- that excitement is more about seeing glimpses of forward momentum -- but towards what I still have no clear idea.

I think the game plan idea marries with what greg and everyone is calling for - quality. Quality can be achieved through various means, but a strong vision is required. Established or unestablished talent could equally likely damage quality through their lack of adherence or other actions to any foundations, blueprint, or as you say neatly, game plan.

Game plan - nicely put, Geomancer.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:47 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:Last time they did that, we got Faith the milk maid and her pet goat.

I read Harbinger: Acts of God and I don't remember Faith dealing much with milk but something had done her body good.

You do raise a good point, though, I too hope that the Goat comes back.

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:55 pm

leonmallett wrote:
I think the game plan idea marries with what greg and everyone is calling for - quality. Quality can be achieved through various means, but a strong vision is required. Established or unestablished talent could equally likely damage quality through their lack of adherence or other actions to any foundations, blueprint, or as you say neatly, game plan.

Game plan - nicely put, Geomancer.

Thank you Leon. [By the way, from a search I did yesterday it seems you have been in the thick of this conversation since 2006 at least]

I consider Crossgen to have produced quality comics. A shared universe, but not a very tightly knit one. I'm not so sure what my interest level would be if VEI chose to go down that road.

So in order of importance to me:
#1 what is the editor in chief/creative director team
#2 what is the focal point of this universe? Solar? Solar substitute? Harbinger?

#3 creative teams. at this time, a distant third.

jsbt · Post by **jsbt** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:36 pm

I don't think much of V2, but I think a lot of Christopher Priest and Q&W while vastly preferring V1 to V2. I don't think anyone can deny that when Valiant comes up at mainstream comic boards, the subject of Quantum & Woody is raised just as much as Magnus, Harbinger, Solar, etc. It was a very popular, beloved book and I think it and Priest should have a place at any new Valiant as long as it can be worked into the framework of the updated universe.

Squirrel · Post by **Squirrel** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:58 pm

IanAlexavier wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote: Last thing we need is for Morrison to go to VALIANT and start his crap about siblings who want to have sex with each other and a VALIANT multiverse.

COMPLETELY AGREED!!!

If we want VALIANT to live on we will need to expose this most excellent Universe to anyone open to exploring it, including kids! Superman and Spider man didnt get HUGE by showing a bunch of T&A or 2 women making out...

Dino, lets keep it PG-13 PPLLLEEAAASSSEEE!!!!!

I want to be able to have these in my house and let my kids look at them.

Get writing geniuses, great artist and keep that tight continuity!!

amen brother....

Squirrel · Post by **Squirrel** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:59 pm

Chiclo wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:Last time they did that, we got Faith the milk maid and her pet goat.
I read Harbinger: Acts of God and I don't remember Faith dealing much with milk but something had done her body good.

You do raise a good point, though, I too hope that the Goat comes back.

The goat has always been a neglected char. in the Valiant Universe

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:26 pm

Goat and Squirrel. Could this be the Valiant verion of Moose and Squirrel?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:28 pm

xodacia81 wrote:Goat and Squirrel. Could this be the Valiant verion of Moose and Squirrel?

Does that make me Fearless Leader?

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:29 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:Goat and Squirrel. Could this be the Valiant verion of Moose and Squirrel?
Does that make me Fearless Leader?

Only if you're in charge of Boris and Natasha.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:33 pm

xodacia81 wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:Goat and Squirrel. Could this be the Valiant verion of Moose and Squirrel?
Does that make me Fearless Leader?
Only if you're in charge of Boris and Natasha.

Anything to get rid of Moose .... er, Goat and Squirrel (Squirrel not that much)

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:09 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:Goat and Squirrel. Could this be the Valiant verion of Moose and Squirrel?
Does that make me Fearless Leader?
Only if you're in charge of Boris and Natasha.
Anything to get rid of Moose .... er, Goat and Squirrel (Squirrel not that much)

But Goat and Squirrel are always outwitting (often without realizing it) the bumbling Pottsylvanians.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:11 pm

Chiclo wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:Goat and Squirrel. Could this be the Valiant verion of Moose and Squirrel?
Does that make me Fearless Leader?
Only if you're in charge of Boris and Natasha.
Anything to get rid of Moose .... er, Goat and Squirrel (Squirrel not that much)
But Goat and Squirrel are always outwitting (often without realizing it) the bumbling Pottsylvanians.

Sigh, that's true

hulk181man · Post by **hulk181man** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:44 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Geomancer wrote:undiscovered talent=man of the atom?

established talent= not man of the atom

I'm not meaning to be harsh or negative here, but perhaps this is a key to understanding things. Just an observation.

Its very human and understandable.

Quantum & Woody holding their dicks in the bathroom

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not see a repeat of that

Hold on there, buddy....that was one of the funniest scenes in the entire series! I thought Priest was rather clever with that -- putting a new spin on the cliched body switcheroo.

Think about it...if you and your best bud could actually switch bodies....would you really want to handle each others' junk??

UnknownTales · Post by **UnknownTales** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:00 am

I believe the correct phrase was "Knob Row". This is referenced to where a series of desks were utulized by young artists and veterans such as layton took time to teach concepts to the students as the created pages for issues.