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Moderators: Daniel Jackson, greg

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ManofTheAtom
Deathmate was cool
Deathmate was cool
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:19 pm
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

[quote="Draco"] :thumb:

or

:atomic:[/quote]

:atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: :atomic: 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Last edited by ManofTheAtom on Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IanAlexavier
Valiant. Back to basics.
Valiant. Back to basics.
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Post by IanAlexavier »

Id support it as long as they didnt try to be in the same universe.. I DONT want to see Supes and Solar fighting Spider Aliens in the Phantom zone.... although that does sound kinda cool! LOL



As long as Shooter gets to be the director I and DC doesnt micro manage then I would give it a chance :thumb:
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BloodOfHeroes
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

ManofTheAtom wrote:In Second Life of Dr Mirage #3, Hwen is watching a movie on TV that Carmen says was directed (or produced, whatever) by a guy who played a villain in the old Batman TV show.

Goats on a first name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes not withstanding, in the VALIANT Universe, the DC characters are comic books, toys, and inspiration for campy TV shows, not contemporaries from alternate realities.
And Jay Garrick was a superhero on Earth-2 AND a funnybook character on Earth-1. And Marvel-616 has a real Fantastic Four and prints comics of their adventures. What's your point?

BoH
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ManofTheAtom
Deathmate was cool
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

BloodOfHeroes wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:In Second Life of Dr Mirage #3, Hwen is watching a movie on TV that Carmen says was directed (or produced, whatever) by a guy who played a villain in the old Batman TV show.

Goats on a first name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes not withstanding, in the VALIANT Universe, the DC characters are comic books, toys, and inspiration for campy TV shows, not contemporaries from alternate realities.
And Jay Garrick was a superhero on Earth-2 AND a funnybook character on Earth-1. And Marvel-616 has a real Fantastic Four and prints comics of their adventures. What's your point?

BoH
Oddly enough, VALIANT is not DC nor Marvel, despite Nicieza's attempts to make it so, so I'm gonna have to ask you what YOUR point is.

Just because VALIANT characters are comic book characters like the ones found at DC and Marvel it doesn't mean they have to be written the SAME WAY (again, despite attempts by fanboy writers to make it so).

That be like saying that since both Cop Rock and the Shield are both cops shows that Vic Mackey should start singing and dancing while arresting perps.

I'm sure some people would like to see that, but despite that, the Shield is NOT Cop Rock...
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BloodOfHeroes
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

ManofTheAtom wrote: Oddly enough, VALIANT is not DC nor Marvel, despite Nicieza's attempts to make it so, so I'm gonna have to ask you what YOUR point is.

Just because VALIANT characters are comic book characters like the ones found at DC and Marvel it doesn't mean they have to be written the SAME WAY (again, despite attempts by fanboy writers to make it so).

That be like saying that since both Cop Rock and the Shield are both cops shows that Vic Mackey should start singing and dancing while arresting perps.

I'm sure some people would like to see that, but despite that, the Shield is NOT Cop Rock...
MOTA, you have very strong opinions, but that's all they are. Canon shows that Marvel, VH-1 and VH-2, Wildstorm and other Image-verses are all part of a larger "multiverse." And, also canonically speaking, Marvel & DC (as well as Wildstorm and DC) can intersect/interact. While our real-world logic dictates this is done to increase sales, the fictitious worlds have interacted. You don't have to like it, but you can't change it. It happened, period.

I've never seen either of your shows, but if Vic Mackey DID sing and dance, you couldn't make it not happen. You'd have a point about Valiant not being a multiverse if A&O, Deathmate, X-O/Iron Man hadn't already made it one. You lost the war before you yelled "charge!"

BoH
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ManofTheAtom
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

That's the point you keep missing.

I never said that VALIANT could not have a multiverse, just that it couldn't interact with characters that had already been determined to be fictional within the stories, like DC and Marvel characters.

A crossover with Image did not invalidate any rule that came before in the VALIANT comics since no Image character was ever established as being fictional (ironically, later in VH 2 the Savage Dragon was established as being fictional in Ninjak), while a crossover with Iron Man did since Marvel characters had already been determined to be fictional at VALIANT.

I know that some people prefer when EVERY single comic in existence are ruled EXACTLY the same way, but I prefer to have variaty and have different companies do things differently from one another. I don't need things across the board to be the same even if you do.
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Zaphod
Zaphod's just this guy, you know?
Zaphod's just this guy, you know?
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Post by Zaphod »

As usual MOTA your attempts to put words in peoples mouths would be amusing if you didn't contradict yourself at every past. I offered that Valiant already is a multiverse, you attempted to deny that.

But you are king of the retcon so what can you do?

I don't really want to see Valiant interact with DC characters or Marvel characters or what have you but in this business...it almost seems inevitable.

There is no easy or quick way to undo the damage that has already been done to Valiant by past ownership groups and with the market today being vastly different than it was in the early 90's VEI already is fighting an uphill battle. I don't know if them becoming an imprint of DC would help take some of the pressure off but if it would, I would read their books. Wildstorm for the most part, gets left alone by DC but there is some interaction and they are officially 1 of the 52.

oh hell, I don't know...I'm flip flopping on this myself. Merry Christmas everyone.
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ManofTheAtom
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

Well, since it's inevitable for VALIANT characters to interact with DC and Marvel characters, I'll cut my losses right now and won't bother to buy anything they produce.

I'm not interested in spending money I don't have and would only be using to support characters I like on a company that's going to go back on what made those characters appealing in the first place.

Again, that is YOUR word, that it's inevitable.

Just keep in mind, it was that kind of mentallity that lead to the collapse of VALIANT in the first place. Don't forget that.
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BloodOfHeroes
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

But the simple truth is that they DID react with characters deemed to be "fictitious." You can't deny that it happened. Again, never presume to understand what I do and don't want. I'm sticking to facts, you're spouting contradictory opinions. Iron Man and Tony Stark were equally "real" and their universes are accessible. I brought up the DC and Marvel examples to show that, in those universes, there are comics about "real" characters. I don't know if that's the case with VALIANT or not. I just know that it happened, they're equally real and you don't like it. When opinions are contrary to facts, those opinions are wrong.

It happened. So when you say such an event "couldn't" happen, I'll merely point out that you're wrong and repeat, "It could, because it did."

BoH
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Zaphod
Zaphod's just this guy, you know?
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Post by Zaphod »

ManofTheAtom wrote:Well, since it's inevitable for VALIANT characters to interact with DC and Marvel characters, I'll cut my losses right now and won't bother to buy anything they produce.

I'm not interested in spending money I don't have and would only be using to support characters I like on a company that's going to go back on what made those characters appealing in the first place.

Again, that is YOUR word, that it's inevitable.

Just keep in mind, it was that kind of mentallity that lead to the collapse of VALIANT in the first place. Don't forget that.
Good for you, save your money on my speculation. If Valiant can maintain without going for the cross company cross over, I say good on them. The first incarnation of Valiant made it roughly 2 years before they did it.

Your final comment isn't based on anything remotely close to fact. How did crossing over with another comic company lead to the collapse of Valiant? Seemed to me there were alot more factors than that, but you keep on shoe-horning your arguement and buy into your own propaganda.
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ManofTheAtom
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

That's the part of "what happened" that keeps confusing you.

The crossover with Iron Man "happened" on two comics (or three, if you count the one that came with the video game) that had NO bearing on the published VALIANT comics.

In fact, the crossover came at a point in VALIANT continuity in which the whole of that continuity was thrown into question by X-O Manowar #68

Let me put it like this.

According to the crossover, the main villain from the VALIANT side was Crescendo, a character who was DEAD in VALIANT continuity BEFORE the crossover.

Should we just gloss over that to make it easier for the crappy story to "fit" continuity?

Oh, I forgot, since it's ALL comics, and they should ALL be written the same way, "dead" should work the same at VALIANT as it does at DC and Marvel... except that it DOESN'T.

At VALIANT, "dead is dead", meaning that Crescendo DID die before the crossover, first when her original body was destroyed and then when the truck ran her over in Giffen's story.

Or should we pretend that her essence ended up in a body that was EXACTLY like her original?

If you're really going to accept things that happened, then first and foremost you have to accept that Crescendo was DEAD before you can accept the crossover with Iron Man.

In order for that crossover to work, you'd have to break at least TWO VALIANT rules, the first being that Marvel characters are fictional and the second being that characters that die stay dead.
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

MProyas wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:Well, since it's inevitable for VALIANT characters to interact with DC and Marvel characters, I'll cut my losses right now and won't bother to buy anything they produce.

I'm not interested in spending money I don't have and would only be using to support characters I like on a company that's going to go back on what made those characters appealing in the first place.

Again, that is YOUR word, that it's inevitable.

Just keep in mind, it was that kind of mentallity that lead to the collapse of VALIANT in the first place. Don't forget that.
Good for you, save your money on my speculation. If Valiant can maintain without going for the cross company cross over, I say good on them. The first incarnation of Valiant made it roughly 2 years before they did it.

Your final comment isn't based on anything remotely close to fact. How did crossing over with another comic company lead to the collapse of Valiant? Seemed to me there were alot more factors than that, but you keep on shoe-horning your arguement and buy into your own propaganda.
Their crossing their characters over with Marvel resulted in the end of their original line of comics and the start of a watered down version of VALIANT that was nothing more than DC lite.

You seem to want that to happen again. Who knows why.

Instead of wanting VEI to learn from the mistakes of the past and avoid repeating them, you and Anthony seem very keen in having them do the same thing all over again.

that's just weird.
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Post by Zaphod »

ManofTheAtom wrote:
MProyas wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:Well, since it's inevitable for VALIANT characters to interact with DC and Marvel characters, I'll cut my losses right now and won't bother to buy anything they produce.

I'm not interested in spending money I don't have and would only be using to support characters I like on a company that's going to go back on what made those characters appealing in the first place.

Again, that is YOUR word, that it's inevitable.

Just keep in mind, it was that kind of mentallity that lead to the collapse of VALIANT in the first place. Don't forget that.
Good for you, save your money on my speculation. If Valiant can maintain without going for the cross company cross over, I say good on them. The first incarnation of Valiant made it roughly 2 years before they did it.

Your final comment isn't based on anything remotely close to fact. How did crossing over with another comic company lead to the collapse of Valiant? Seemed to me there were alot more factors than that, but you keep on shoe-horning your arguement and buy into your own propaganda.
Their crossing their characters over with Marvel resulted in the end of their original line of comics and the start of a watered down version of VALIANT that was nothing more than DC lite.

You seem to want that to happen again. Who knows why.

Instead of wanting VEI to learn from the mistakes of the past and avoid repeating them, you and Anthony seem very keen in having them do the same thing all over again.

that's just weird.
Again, you assume. I am actually refering to Deathmate. It was a *SQUEE* poor crossover, you won't get any arguement there from me but it occured.

Did it affect Valiant continuity? Nope. Does any future crossover (inevitable or not...time will decide) have to affect any future Valiant continuity? Nope.

Its pretty much a time honored tradition though, when sales are down...It never occured with Shooters Valiant but then, Shooter hasn't exactly had a run in comics not under the DC or Marvel brands where the rug wasn't pulled out from under him prematurely?

Why was the rug pulled? Money. So in my mind, for all of his greatness Shooter still hasn't proved that it can be done in my mind.

in closing

Image
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

MProyas wrote:Again, you assume. I am actually refering to Deathmate. It was a *SQUEE* poor crossover, you won't get any arguement there from me but it occured.

Did it affect Valiant continuity? Nope. Does any future crossover (inevitable or not...time will decide) have to affect any future Valiant continuity? Nope.
Actually, Deathmate first perfectly within VALIANT continuity, check out Rai #0 and the prologue.

Unlike the crossover with Iron Man, the ones with Nexus, Predator, and Image did NOT contradict ANYTHING with VALIANT continuity. Predators, Nexus, and Image characters were NEVER established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe. Marvel and DC characters were.

Most of all, the crossover with Image was not done to increase sales, as you say, it was done because Massarsky and Jim Lee were friends. It was akin to two children playing together with their toys.
Its pretty much a time honored tradition though, when sales are down...It never occured with Shooters Valiant but then, Shooter hasn't exactly had a run in comics not under the DC or Marvel brands where the rug was pulled out from under him prematurely?
Maybe for you it's a tradition. It doesn't mean it HAS to happen.

Just because you want it to happe and expect it to happen it doesn't mean it HAS to.
Why was the rug pulled? Money. So in my mind, for all of his greatness Shooter still hasn't proved that it can be done in my mind.
And for all my money, Nicieza proved that doing it was not a good idea.
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

ManofTheAtom wrote:In order for that crossover to work, you'd have to break at least TWO VALIANT rules <SNIP> the second being that characters that die stay dead.
Just like Archer, I suppose?

BoH
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

ManofTheAtom wrote:Instead of wanting VEI to learn from the mistakes of the past and avoid repeating them, you and Anthony seem very keen in having them do the same thing all over again.

that's just weird.
What's weird is that all of my comments have been about the past. When have I ever said I want VEI to do anything (other than return Bloodshot to print) in the future?

First you said Valiant wasn't a multiverse. Except it was. Then you said a crossover with Marvel characters couldn't happen. Except it did. Then you presume to know what I'd want VEI to do, when I'm one of those content to wait and not second-guess. If you wanted to publish Valiant, you should've gotten involved with the bidding. :)

Please: don't put words in my mouth--or on my fingers--and I'll leave you to your opinons, except when they're wrong. Deal?

BoH
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Post by Lightning Strike »

MProyas wrote:Image
I have to say, I find that pic very offensive. A friend of mine who was mentally *SQUEE* just passed away and that is NOT funny.
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

BloodOfHeroes wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:In order for that crossover to work, you'd have to break at least TWO VALIANT rules <SNIP> the second being that characters that die stay dead.
Just like Archer, I suppose?

BoH
Who died in 2020.

What's your point? There's no story that contradicts that. (of course, had Nicieza gotten it his way, VH 2 Archer would have replaced the dead original)
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Post by ManofTheAtom »

First you said Valiant wasn't a multiverse.Except it was
No it wasn't.

You can't prove it was.

Alpha & Omega was not an alternate reality, it was a temporal dimension that was wiped out of existence when Solar changed history.

That's not the same as an alternate reality.
Then you said a crossover with Marvel characters couldn't happen. Except it did.
A crossover that involved a dead VALIANT character and a Marvel character who had previously been established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Just because you liked the watered down VALIANT Universe it doesn't mean that the crossover that made it happen is supported by the facts that preceded it.
Please: don't put words in my mouth--or on my fingers--and I'll leave you to your opinons, except when they're wrong. Deal?
And when I express an OPINION, I'll let you know.

Saying that Cresendo was DEAD before the crossover, is NOT an opinion, it's a FACT.

Saying that Iron Man was established as being FICTIONAL in the VALIANT Universe is NOT an opinion, it's a FACT.

Nicieza's crappy crossover that you love so much may have been supported by the facts of the Marvel Universe, but it was NOT supported by the facts of the VALIANT Universe.

You want to accept that it happened, yet you refuse to accept that the very things that prevent it from existing happened too.
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Post by GJB »

Man, we all so want it to be 1990 again, don't we. Does anyone think the new Valiant can recapture that magic?

My opinion is they do not need to reinvent the wheel. Go back to what worked. The problem is you will never have the same creative talent on board, with the same vision, as they had back then.

Just thinking out loud.
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

ManofTheAtom wrote:Who died in 2020.
Yeah, that was one of the times he died.

BoH
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Post by BloodOfHeroes »

ManofTheAtom wrote: No it wasn't.

You can't prove it was.
Sure, I can. Deathmate. X-O/Iron Man. VH-2.
ManofTheAtom wrote:And when I express an OPINION, I'll let you know.
Heh. You don't seem to know what that word means.
ManofTheAtom wrote:Nicieza's crappy crossover that you love so much may have been supported by the facts of the Marvel Universe, but it was NOT supported by the facts of the VALIANT Universe.
Except it happened in the Valiant Universe. That's a fact, boy.

"Crappy" crossover is an opinion. You told a lie, Mike. You promised you'd let me know when you'd express an opinion...

BoH
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Post by terreth »

If Valiant is going to work again they need to be "themselves." Even though being under the banner of another comic company, especially one of the big two, may have its perks but it runs the risk of compromising the great uniqueness that was Shooter's Valiant.

Can Shooter's Valiant be done again with the talent of today? But I doube it would work under another banner, despite the perks. :!:
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Post by ZephyrWasHOT!! »

Wait.....DC has 52 universes now..........?
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Post by The Harbinger »

:popcorn:
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