Unity headaches

[IanAlexavier]

I have a feeling that Shooter did

[ManofTheAtom]

I have a feeling that Shooter did

Heh.

Heated debates definitely make writing stories more enjoyable

[Brother J]

I think the question is, under what circumstances and when did Erica discover the Lost Land, the only place she could launch Unity from?

Did she discover it during those five years, or did she discover it sometime in the next 2000 years?

Erica discovered the Lost Land in 3988. From 3988 to 4001, she establishes the foundation and power sources for her San Gabriel Citadel.

During those years, Erica was conducting business in the Lost Land, as it is mentioned that in 3997 that her men in the Lost Land build a Speakeasy to help ease the stress of their work. Smuggling to and from the complex begins at that time.

(The above was stolen from the Unity Timeline in the Unity Vol. 4 TPB)

[ManofTheAtom]

I think the question is, under what circumstances and when did Erica discover the Lost Land, the only place she could launch Unity from?

Did she discover it during those five years, or did she discover it sometime in the next 2000 years?

Erica discovered the Lost Land in 3988. From 3988 to 4001, she establishes the foundation and power sources for her San Gabriel Citadel.

During those years, Erica was conducting business in the Lost Land, as it is mentioned that in 3997 that her men in the Lost Land build a Speakeasy to help ease the stress of their work. Smuggling to and from the complex begins at that time.

(The above was stolen from the Unity Timeline in the Unity Vol. 4 TPB)

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/unitytimeline.asp

3988 A.D. - Erica Pierce discovers the Lost Land, a perfect base from which to launch Unity.

Good call

So then maybe what she was waiting was not for technology to be advanced enough, but for her to find a perfect launching site.

[Brother J]

I think the question is, under what circumstances and when did Erica discover the Lost Land, the only place she could launch Unity from?

Did she discover it during those five years, or did she discover it sometime in the next 2000 years?

Erica discovered the Lost Land in 3988. From 3988 to 4001, she establishes the foundation and power sources for her San Gabriel Citadel.

During those years, Erica was conducting business in the Lost Land, as it is mentioned that in 3997 that her men in the Lost Land build a Speakeasy to help ease the stress of their work. Smuggling to and from the complex begins at that time.

(The above was stolen from the Unity Timeline in the Unity Vol. 4 TPB)

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/unitytimeline.asp

3988 A.D. - Erica Pierce discovers the Lost Land, a perfect base from which to launch Unity.

Good call

So then maybe what she was waiting was not for technology to be advanced enough, but for her to find a perfect launching site.

One thing I noticed when I was just re-reading the Unity volumes, in Magnus #15, Erica was discussing the threats to her plans in 3988. She had three large video screens on which she had images of Solar, Old Nakadai, the current Rai at the time, and Magnus as a child training with 1A. The comment by Solar was interesting:

TO ALBERT FROM ERICA:"I want you to see the wonderful progress I've made...I've finally located that devil Solar. He spends most of his time as energy, going with the flow of space time. With each passing day, he becomes less and less a danger to us."

Then in 4001, later in the issue, Erica decides the time is right. The quotes are the following:

ALBERT: "Are you certain about this, Erica?"

ERICA: "Conditions could not be more ideal, Albert. Japan has become an orbital body, her new Rai even less of a threat than his father was. And it's been four months since Solar expended himself against the alien armada...four blessed months without that monster's existence! Now there is no one to stop me... not a single entity left who can prevent my plan from reaching fruition!"

It sounds like once she found the Lost Land, she was ready to start moving forward with her plan at a faster pace, but she waited until 4001 when she felt the threats of the time were at their lowest. I'm guessing this means that she was utterly clueless that the heroes from 1992 would find their way to the Lost Land to confront her.

[ManofTheAtom]

One thing I noticed when I was just re-reading the Unity volumes, in Magnus #15, Erica was discussing the threats to her plans in 3988. She had three large video screens on which she had images of Solar, Old Nakadai, the current Rai at the time, and Magnus as a child training with 1A.

It sounds like once she found the Lost Land, she was ready to start moving forward with her plan at a faster pace, but she waited until 4001 when she felt the threats of the time were at their lowest. I'm guessing this means that she was utterly clueless that the heroes from 1992 would find their way to the Lost Land to confront her.

Let us say that Solar, Rai, and Magnus were the only real threats against her... and Pete, who proved to be powerful enough to hurt her.

How do we apply the above to 1996? what did Erica need for Unity?

To find the Lost Land and for those powerful enough to defeat her to not be active.

In 1996, Solar had merged with a sun, which is similar to when he expended himself fighting the armada, Rai and Magnus did not exist, and Torque was dead.

That left Pete and finding the Lost Land.

Finding the Lost Land could have been easily accomplished given that Turok and his exploits became publicly known.

In an issue of Turok, we see a low budget film company travel to the Lost Land to shoot a movie, so how hard would it have been for Erica to learn of its existence like they did?

That left Pete as he was in Visitor #13, no longer a whiny child but now a true Omega Harbinger.

Could he have been enough of a threat for her to not go through with Unity in 1996?

[thePike]

X-O was still around in 1996 wasn't he? I figure he would have been a slight pain in the posterior given that he did create problems for MG during Unity.

More to the question at hand though: She didn't find the lost land until 3998 so she didn't have the technology/knowledge to go through with Unity yet did she? (We know that timetravel through the LL was possible, but Erica apparently didn't know this - we never see her do anything except travel a linear existance).

It appears she needed a whole lot of factors to line up in order for her to initiate Unity. Like any great general, she was patient.

Basically, it appears once she had; the location of her base picked, her army built, the technology ready, and the knowledge/training to use it; it was all a simple matter of timing and when was the least chance of being stopped by the heroes of earth at her current time (4001)

[ManofTheAtom]

X-O was still around in 1996 wasn't he? I figure he would have been a slight pain in the posterior given that he did create problems for MG during Unity.

More to the question at hand though: She didn't find the lost land until 3998 so she didn't have the technology/knowledge to go through with Unity yet did she? (We know that timetravel through the LL was possible, but Erica apparently didn't know this - we never see her do anything except travel a linear existance).

It appears she needed a whole lot of factors to line up in order for her to initiate Unity. Like any great general, she was patient.

Basically, it appears once she had; the location of her base picked, her army built, the technology ready, and the knowledge/training to use it; it was all a simple matter of timing and when was the least chance of being stopped by the heroes of earth at her current time (4001)

2064 would have been just as good given that Solar went into exile, Aric died, and Pete was lost.

[thePike]

Granted, thats true, but then still hadn't picked a location and technology hadn't caught up with her yet either.

[ManofTheAtom]

Granted, thats true, but then still hadn't picked a location and technology hadn't caught up with her yet either.

That's my point.

Once she found the Lost Land, technology wouldn't be a problem because instead of waiting for it to catch up to her, she could catch up to it through the Lost Land.

Everything hinges on her finding the Lost Land. Had she found it long before 3988, she could have launched Unity much sooner.

[cjv]

Let us say that Solar, Rai, and Magnus were the only real threats against her... and Pete, who proved to be powerful enough to hurt her.

Assuming she knew about Pete, which I would guess she didn't.

How do we apply the above to 1996? what did Erica need for Unity?

To find the Lost Land and for those powerful enough to defeat her to not be active.

And to have the technology/knowledge of WHAT she wanted to do. It's fine to have a plan (unify the timelines) but she still needed to figure out HOW to implement the plant.

In 1996, Solar had merged with a sun, which is similar to when he expended himself fighting the armada, Rai and Magnus did not exist, and Torque was dead.

That left Pete and finding the Lost Land.

Well, we don't know for sure how Solar might be able to come back (as presumably he does at some point). For all we know, he left some residual energy (ie, his hand again) to warn him and call him if there is trouble.

Also, she still needed to figure out what, and how, she was going to have her master plan reach fruition.

Finding the Lost Land could have been easily accomplished given that Turok and his exploits became publicly known.

Okay.

In an issue of Turok, we see a low budget film company travel to the Lost Land to shoot a movie, so how hard would it have been for Erica to learn of its existence like they did?

If she were actively looking at that point. If she still doesn't know HOW she is going to achieve Unity, finding the lost land is somewhat moot - she may not even know she needs the lost land yet.

Could he have been enough of a threat for her to not go through with Unity in 1996?

IMO, he could have been a threat, just as Harada was a threat to Solar. But the question is did Pierce know about Pete (or any harbingers, for that matter!)

Chris

[cjv]

Granted, thats true, but then still hadn't picked a location and technology hadn't caught up with her yet either.

That's my point.

Once she found the Lost Land, technology wouldn't be a problem because instead of waiting for it to catch up to her, she could catch up to it through the Lost Land.

But you are assuiming she KNEW she needed to lost land from the beginning. When she was starting to figure out her plans, she may not have know what she wanted. By the time she figured she needed the lost land, Turok may have died and it may have faded into obscurity again.

Everything hinges on her finding the Lost Land. Had she found it long before 3988, she could have launched Unity much sooner.

Presumably she might have, but she was still waiting for a lack of heroes.

Basically she needed a combination of three factors

1) the technology and knowledge

2) a lack of heroes to stop her (or so she thinks)

3) IF SHE KNOWS SHE NEEDS IT, a launching base.


Number 3 is critical. IF she doesn't know what her plan is, how is she going to know everything she needs for it. It's like saying "okay, I am going to build a fusion powered rocket ship. Now that I know that, I want you to tell me, right now, before I have any designs or plans, what the best place to launch it from is".

In 1996, since she DIDN'T have the technology or knowledge, she may not have even known she needed the lost land, or someplace like it. By the time she realized she needed it, there could have been either a prevelance of heroes again, or the knowledge of the lost land might have faded.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

And to have the technology/knowledge of WHAT she wanted to do. It's fine to have a plan (unify the timelines) but she still needed to figure out HOW to implement the plan.

That wasn't really her plan, though, that was just the propaganda she was selling.

Her plan was to erase what her dad did to her. She already had that plan, she was just waiting for technology to catch up to her and to find a place to launch it from.

The way it played out, she found the tech before she found the launch pad, BUT if she had found the launch pad first, she wouldn't have had to wait 2,000 years for the technology to be at hand.

Well, we don't know for sure how Solar might be able to come back (as presumably he does at some point). For all we know, he left some residual energy (ie, his hand again) to warn him and call him if there is trouble.

That's an assumption, though.

Also, she still needed to figure out what, and how, she was going to have her master plan reach fruition.

And finding the Lost Land would have made that quicker.

If she were actively looking at that point. If she still doesn't know HOW she is going to achieve Unity, finding the lost land is somewhat moot - she may not even know she needs the lost land yet.

Maybe.

IMO, he could have been a threat, just as Harada was a threat to Solar. But the question is did Pierce know about Pete (or any harbingers, for that matter!)

The events in Harbinger #25 were reported in the news. Sure, not that they were Omega Harbingers, but it could have piqued her curiosity enough to find out how the building was destroyed and that could have led her to discover the truth about Harada and Pete.

Question,

Where was Erica during the Harbinger Wars, and is Yuri Pierce, the Geomancer, related to her or Albert?

[ManofTheAtom]

But you are assuiming she KNEW she needed to lost land from the beginning. When she was starting to figure out her plans, she may not have know what she wanted. By the time she figured she needed the lost land, Turok may have died and it may have faded into obscurity again.

Not necessarily. It makes sense that she would know that for her plan to work she needed a vantage point outside of time, otherwise she would have launched the plan much sooner, not waited 2000 years.

Presumably she might have, but she was still waiting for a lack of heroes.

Basically she needed a combination of three factors

1) the technology and knowledge

2) a lack of heroes to stop her (or so she thinks)

3) IF SHE KNOWS SHE NEEDS IT, a launching base.

She had to know that she needed it.

Number 3 is critical. IF she doesn't know what her plan is, how is she going to know everything she needs for it. It's like saying "okay, I am going to build a fusion powered rocket ship. Now that I know that, I want you to tell me, right now, before I have any designs or plans, what the best place to launch it from is".

Her plan could have started with "I want to alter the timestream, but I can't do it while I'm inside it."

That's why she waited 2000 years, until she found a point OUTSIDE the timestream from which she could manipulate it.

In 1996, since she DIDN'T have the technology or knowledge, she may not have even known she needed the lost land, or someplace like it. By the time she realized she needed it, there could have been either a prevelance of heroes again, or the knowledge of the lost land might have faded.

It wouldn't have faded from her mind. Once she heard about it, she would have known it existed.

Lack of tech or knowledge has no bearing on her plan, which demanded for her to be outside time to change time.

That's the one thing she couldn't do until 3988, when she discovered the LL.

[thePike]

On the whole debate of what Erica was doing about Solar during the 200 years in question...

I was reading some of the old Deathmate stuff (I know, I know, ) and I found this particular panel interesting in Deathmate Green:


This scene is one where Solar & Prophet just approached Motherguard in Ericas house and takes place just after Erica is killed (MG is the one speaking in the panel since you can only see her hand in this picture).

I know some may not consider this official VH1 cannon, but I did think it interesting none-the-less.

[ManofTheAtom]

On the whole debate of what Erica was doing about Solar during the 200 years in question...

I was reading some of the old Deathmate stuff (I know, I know, ) and I found this particular panel interesting in Deathmate Green:


This scene is one where Solar & Prophet just approached Motherguard in Ericas house and takes place just after Erica is killed (MG is the one speaking in the panel since you can only see her hand in this picture).

I know some may not consider this official VH1 cannon, but I did think it interesting none-the-less.

I think that preview gives us a general idea of how Erica and Solar would have acted under different circumstances, which makes it valid.

[thePike]

I think that preview gives us a general idea of how Erica and Solar would have acted under different circumstances, which makes it valid.

I would concur, but I definitely think it gives us some insight into what Mothergods general plans were for the next 2000 or so years

[ManofTheAtom]

I think that preview gives us a general idea of how Erica and Solar would have acted under different circumstances, which makes it valid.

I would concur, but I definitely think it gives us some insight into what Mothergods general plans were for the next 2000 or so years

Sure

[Ryan]

Definitely a lot of unanswered questions (plot holes?) about Unity.

What exactly kind of 'machine' did an energy being need to destroy and re-create the universe (or reality)? Obviously something much bigger and more complicated than a black hole generator.

What exactly was the Pierce Post-Unity world going to look like? A recreation of the 'real world' (aka VH0) that Erica Pierce lived in before Solar changed everything? The world without superheroes, time travelers, energy beings, etc? That's what would make the most logical sense.

I've often wondered why Unity only detailed heroes from 1992 and 4001 [besides the obvious, real-world, funnybook publishing ones]. When she shut down all the doors to 1992, did she shut down all the doors between the 2 dates? Therefore no one from 2007 had a way to the Lost Land?

BoH

Of course it's just so the writers could contrive a way to get all the heroes from different eras together. But my working theory for an in-story explanation is that the portals to and from the Lost Land are more complicated and limited than we think.

They're only open at certain times for certain people, and they also only go back to specific times in our world for a limited time.

For example the one Magnus used to get in from 4001 wouldn't allow him to go to any (relative) Lost Land time, and from the Lost Land he would only be able to return back to his own pre-determined relative time, he couldn't just go to 1992 or 2890 from that portal, he'd have to find a different. And that specific portal would only be open for a limited time and be of limited use.

Using this theory, it wouldn't be possible to travel to and from the Lost Land to and from any possible Earth time. Only from the times that were 'in sync' with the current Lost Land time. Which is why Unity participants could only enter from 1992 and 4001.

[ManofTheAtom]

What exactly kind of 'machine' did an energy being need to destroy and re-create the universe (or reality)? Obviously something much bigger and more complicated than a black hole generator.

What exactly was the Pierce Post-Unity world going to look like? A recreation of the 'real world' (aka VH0) that Erica Pierce lived in before Solar changed everything? The world without superheroes, time travelers, energy beings, etc? That's what would make the most logical sense.

That would be my guess for sure.

Of course it's just so the writers could contrive a way to get all the heroes from different eras together. But my working theory for an in-story explanation is that the portals to and from the Lost Land are more complicated and limited than we think.

They're only open at certain times for certain people, and they also only go back to specific times in our world for a limited time.

For example the one Magnus used to get in from 4001 wouldn't allow him to go to any (relative) Lost Land time, and from the Lost Land he would only be able to return back to his own pre-determined relative time, he couldn't just go to 1992 or 2890 from that portal, he'd have to find a different. And that specific portal would only be open for a limited time and be of limited use.

Using this theory, it wouldn't be possible to travel to and from the Lost Land to and from any possible Earth time. Only from the times that were 'in sync' with the current Lost Land time. Which is why Unity participants could only enter from 1992 and 4001.

Then, again, Geoff, Archer, and Armstrong did enter it after 1992 at the end of Chaos Effect. So did Turok in the issues published subsequent to that.

[Chiclo]

What exactly kind of 'machine' did an energy being need to destroy and re-create the universe (or reality)? Obviously something much bigger and more complicated than a black hole generator.

What exactly was the Pierce Post-Unity world going to look like? A recreation of the 'real world' (aka VH0) that Erica Pierce lived in before Solar changed everything? The world without superheroes, time travelers, energy beings, etc? That's what would make the most logical sense.

That would be my guess for sure.

Of course it's just so the writers could contrive a way to get all the heroes from different eras together. But my working theory for an in-story explanation is that the portals to and from the Lost Land are more complicated and limited than we think.

They're only open at certain times for certain people, and they also only go back to specific times in our world for a limited time.

For example the one Magnus used to get in from 4001 wouldn't allow him to go to any (relative) Lost Land time, and from the Lost Land he would only be able to return back to his own pre-determined relative time, he couldn't just go to 1992 or 2890 from that portal, he'd have to find a different. And that specific portal would only be open for a limited time and be of limited use.

Using this theory, it wouldn't be possible to travel to and from the Lost Land to and from any possible Earth time. Only from the times that were 'in sync' with the current Lost Land time. Which is why Unity participants could only enter from 1992 and 4001.

Then, again, Geoff, Archer, and Armstrong did enter it after 1992 at the end of Chaos Effect. So did Turok in the issues published subsequent to that.

One could get lost trying to extrapolate some consistent maths behind these intersections between our space-time and that of the Lost Land.

[Ryan]

Then, again, Geoff, Archer, and Armstrong did enter it after 1992 at the end of Chaos Effect. So did Turok in the issues published subsequent to that.

Yeah totally. I meant at the time of the first Unity, Lost Land time would only correspond with 1992 and 4001 Earth times. Other times in the Lost Land would correspond to different Earth times.

How Lost Land time flowed in relation to Earth (VH1) time is one of the big mysteries. I'm not sure my working theory will hold up, have to see how many contradictions pop up.

The post-Chaos Effect Lost Land is pretty messy. At the end of CE, we see the Lost Land reformed by the Chaos Energies being sent back to the Big Bang. Then we see Pierce's Rainbow tower fully intact. "A great war is coming and our part is to be played in a different time." This clearly suggests that the events of Unity 1992 haven't happened yet and are going to repeat themselves in this newly reformed Lost Land.

Screenshot 2024-06-24 134047.png

Then the next time we see the Lost Land in Turok #24, the Rainbow Tower is shown with the damage that was sustained in Unity #1, showing that Unity has already happened in this Lost Land, so it's really just the same Lost Land as before. Turok also finds a stash of weapons he buried before Unity, confirming this is the same Lost Land as continued from 1992's Unity, contradicting what was shown in Chaos Effect Omega.

Screenshot 2024-06-24 134246.png

[Ryan]

One could get lost trying to extrapolate some consistent maths behind these intersections between our space-time and that of the Lost Land.

No doubt, there probably isn't any consistent logic besides what the writers needed to make their current story work. But fun to try (maybe)

I've always liked the Truman-Rags Turok from post-BQ, too bad their storyline was never really finished.

[ManofTheAtom]

Then, again, Geoff, Archer, and Armstrong did enter it after 1992 at the end of Chaos Effect. So did Turok in the issues published subsequent to that.

Yeah totally. I meant at the time of the first Unity, Lost Land time would only correspond with 1992 and 4001 Earth times. Other times in the Lost Land would correspond to different Earth times.

How Lost Land time flowed in relation to Earth (VH1) time is one of the big mysteries. I'm not sure my working theory will hold up, have to see how many contradictions pop up.

The post-Chaos Effect Lost Land is pretty messy. At the end of CE, we see the Lost Land reformed by the Chaos Energies being sent back to the Big Bang. Then we see Pierce's Rainbow tower fully intact. "A great war is coming and our part is to be played in a different time." This clearly suggests that the events of Unity 1992 haven't happened yet and are going to repeat themselves in this newly reformed Lost Land.

Screenshot 2024-06-24 134047.png


Then the next time we see the Lost Land in Turok #24, the Rainbow Tower is shown with the damage that was sustained in Unity #1, showing that Unity has already happened in this Lost Land, so it's really just the same Lost Land as before. Turok also finds a stash of weapons he buried before Unity, confirming this is the same Lost Land as continued from 1992's Unity, contradicting what was shown in Chaos Effect Omega.


Screenshot 2024-06-24 134246.png