Unity headaches

[ManofTheAtom]

Also, don't forget that it would take time to develope her army of followers for the Unity event. (maybe it was a branch off of Scientology? Maybe Tom Crusie was a member of the Unity gang?)

I think that had more to do with ego than with Unity.

[BloodOfHeroes]

What was UII gonna be about?

I dunno, beyond the return of Erica Pierce. From what I've been told, they wanted to do it because it would result in some good sales figures. So we had the setup with SECRET WEAPONS, A&A and Turok, all as foreshadowing/background. But, allegedly, while the PTB were kicking around ideas BIG enough for Unity 2, they instead came up with the Chaos Effect.

(Anyone with specific facts, please feel free to set me straight. I'm just sharing what I've heard)

What's so cool to those of us who liked VH-2, is that the VH-2 Archer, who seemingly died, was, in fact, ALSO in the Lost Land. He eventually woudl have met and been replaced by his VH-1 counterpart.
BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

What was UII gonna be about?

I dunno, beyond the return of Erica Pierce. From what I've been told, they wanted to do it because it would result in some good sales figures. So we had the setup with SECRET WEAPONS, A&A and Turok, all as foreshadowing/background. But, allegedly, while the PTB were kicking around ideas BIG enough for Unity 2, they instead came up with the Chaos Effect.

(Anyone with specific facts, please feel free to set me straight. I'm just sharing what I've heard)

What's so cool to those of us who liked VH-2, is that the VH-2 Archer, who seemingly died, was, in fact, ALSO in the Lost Land. He eventually woudl have met and been replaced by his VH-1 counterpart.
BoH

Please don't bring up Fab's "poll" idea, lol

That was one of the lamest and most stupid ideas he had.

The only mention I've seen of Unity II was in an issue of Comic Shop News.

[BloodOfHeroes]

That was one of the lamest and most stupid ideas he had.

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

For the record: I didn't bring it up, and I ain't going there.

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

That was one of the lamest and most stupid ideas he had.

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

BoH

Come on, how can you like the idea of replacing characters from one universe with their dopplegangers?

That takes out all the drama from the stories.

It's like when DC "killed" Batman.

Who cares if one Batman died when there was another one to replace him?

Same for Archer. Why should anyone care that one dies if there's another one to take his place?

It's lame and uninspired.

[cjv]

Okay, so clearly she was not able to do it herself. Which means she needed machinery, which means she needed technology. Which means depending on what technology she needed (and if she could create it herself) she might have wait until such technology was available.

Sure.

In reality, she would have needed to wait 2,000 years, while in the Lost Land, she could have taken two steps to find herself in North Am and acquire what she needed there.

Actually, in the Lost Land she could have acquired technology that was even more advanced than the one in North Am.

Yup, she could have gone to 6000, 8000AD, whatever.

Of course, she still would have needed to come up with a plan on how to implement her goal, how to USE the technology.

Sure, but since time was not absolute in the Lost Land, she could have gained that knowledge quicker than she would have in normal time.

Actually, I think it (sort of) would have taken her longer, from the perspective of time outside of the lost land.

Lost Land time flows more slowly, right? So for 1000 years to pass in the lost land, MORE time would have passed on the outside. Since it would have still taken her the same number of years to do the research (let's say 850 years to fully come up with a plan and design for Unity), it she had done it in the lost land, MORE than 850 years would have passed outside the lost land. So instead of 850 years later (when she is done with her research), if she travelled from the lost land to our world, it might have been 2000 years had passed, or something like that (based on whatever the time flow ratio is).

A 1980's computer is no different than a 2007 computer, except that it can do much cooler stuff. The basic function is the same.

You are comparing 27 years of difference. Let's try talking a little bit more. a 1900's plane is really quite different from a 2007 plane. New technology. A 1950's computer is really quite different from a 2007 computer.

*IF* Erica needed some technology that didn't exist, presumably it wasn't simply a matter of changing a CD into a DVD. Presumably it would be more like changing a puppet show (old technology) into a computer animated movie (new technology).

They drove vehicles, used weapons, managed to feed themselves, used hovering baby cribs, medical supplies, medical machines, etc, etc, etc, and we're talking about high school drop outs doing that (i.e. the Harbinger kids). Imagine what a scientist like Pierce could have done.

Someone may be able to USE it, because presumably the USE for it is still designed around humans. But there is a difference between physically using it and understanding the technology behind it to incorporate that technology into other machinery.

[quote

I would add the will to do it. It's one thing to conceive of something, another thing to actually go through with it.

She did not lack the will to do anything, heh.[/quote]

So you say. WE could easily have a back story where we see her questioning if this is the right thing to do, and developing the resolve to do it. Destroying the world is very different from destroying Solar while trying to protect the world.

They were different things. Unreality is like the highway and the LL is one of many stops in the road.

So then Pierce could have easily found the Lost Land on her own. (BTW, makes you wonder how many other "stops" there are on the highway that we don't know about - given that the laws of physics were different for the Lost Land, who knows what else could be different.). So part of the delay could have also been finding the lost land then.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Yup, she could have gone to 6000, 8000AD, whatever.

Of course, she still would have needed to come up with a plan on how to implement her goal, how to USE the technology.

All of which could have been accomplished in the LL, right?

Actually, I think it (sort of) would have taken her longer, from the perspective of time outside of the lost land.

Lost Land time flows more slowly, right? So for 1000 years to pass in the lost land, MORE time would have passed on the outside. Since it would have still taken her the same number of years to do the research (let's say 850 years to fully come up with a plan and design for Unity), it she had done it in the lost land, MORE than 850 years would have passed outside the lost land. So instead of 850 years later (when she is done with her research), if she travelled from the lost land to our world, it might have been 2000 years had passed, or something like that (based on whatever the time flow ratio is).

I think the reason it took her 2000 years was because she was caught in a linear existence. Had she been able to jump from one era to another it would have taken her a lot less.

For instance, instead of using the computer she bought in Solar #13, she would have used a similar but more advanced computer from 10,000 years later.

That means, that instead of spending time learnng how to use technology from 2064, she would have spent her time learning how to use technology from 20,640.

It's like Doctor Tomorrow, who learned to use technology that was 50 years ahead of him.

You are comparing 27 years of difference. Let's try talking a little bit more. a 1900's plane is really quite different from a 2007 plane. New technology. A 1950's computer is really quite different from a 2007 computer.

*IF* Erica needed some technology that didn't exist, presumably it wasn't simply a matter of changing a CD into a DVD. Presumably it would be more like changing a puppet show (old technology) into a computer animated movie (new technology).

For example, in Stargate Atlantis present-day humans have no problem operating Ancient technology that is 10,000 years more advanced that what is available today.

Is it really that much of a leap to say that an energy being with a PHd would have a hard time understanding technology 10,000 or 100,000 years ahead of her time?

Sure, it would requiere hard work, but it could be done, and not necessarily take a 1000 years.

Someone may be able to USE it, because presumably the USE for it is still designed around humans. But there is a difference between physically using it and understanding the technology behind it to incorporate that technology into other machinery.

Eric could do it, given her abilities and knowledge.

So you say. WE could easily have a back story where we see her questioning if this is the right thing to do, and developing the resolve to do it. Destroying the world is very different from destroying Solar while trying to protect the world.

Ah, but she didn't see it as destroying the world, she saw it as putting it right.

So then Pierce could have easily found the Lost Land on her own. (BTW, makes you wonder how many other "stops" there are on the highway that we don't know about - given that the laws of physics were different for the Lost Land, who knows what else could be different.). So part of the delay could have also been finding the lost land then.

If you asked BloodofHeroes, he'd tell you that one of those stops is VH 2 because he saw the Lost Land in an issue of the Eternal Warriors comic, lol

I do think that part of the delay was in finding the LL, otherwise she would have moved there long before 4001.

[cjv]

You are comparing 27 years of difference. Let's try talking a little bit more. a 1900's plane is really quite different from a 2007 plane. New technology. A 1950's computer is really quite different from a 2007 computer.

*IF* Erica needed some technology that didn't exist, presumably it wasn't simply a matter of changing a CD into a DVD. Presumably it would be more like changing a puppet show (old technology) into a computer animated movie (new technology).

For example, in Stargate Atlantis present-day humans have no problem operating Ancient technology that is 10,000 years more advanced that what is available today.

Is it really that much of a leap to say that an energy being with a PHd would have a hard time understanding technology 10,000 or 100,000 years ahead of her time?

I don't understand. Are you saying Erica WOULD have a hard time understanding the technology or not?

Regardless, it would be difficult for ANYONE to understand some leaps in technology like that. I mean, a PhD might be able to gain an understanding faster, or might have a better inkling of how something works, but think about what can happen in 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000 years. I am not saying it can't be done (although in many cases it may be so difficult it will be close to impossible) but it would be difficult.

Think about trying to explain a computer, or a NMR machine, or an atomic reactor to someone ancient Babylon. Regardless of how smart they are, there is going to be some difficulty.

Someone may be able to USE it, because presumably the USE for it is still designed around humans. But there is a difference between physically using it and understanding the technology behind it to incorporate that technology into other machinery.

Eric could do it, given her abilities and knowledge.

I am not saying that she couldn't. But you were equating people being able to drive a future car with understanding how the technology WORKS and how the knowledge is applied (and then presumably taking that technology and knowledge and applying it on your own, in a different fashion). Not an easy task, no matter how smart you are. It would be like giving an MP3 player to an ancient egyptian and saying okay, now build a computer.

I do think that part of the delay was in finding the LL, otherwise she would have moved there long before 4001.

Unless she was afraid if she started while Solar was alive he would have a good chance of stopping her.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't understand. Are you saying Erica WOULD have a hard time understanding the technology or not?

Sorry, that should have been "wouldn't"

Regardless, it would be difficult for ANYONE to understand some leaps in technology like that. I mean, a PhD might be able to gain an understanding faster, or might have a better inkling of how something works, but think about what can happen in 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000 years. I am not saying it can't be done (although in many cases it may be so difficult it will be close to impossible) but it would be difficult.

Right, difficult doesn't mean impossible, so given enough time she would have done it.

Think about trying to explain a computer, or a NMR machine, or an atomic reactor to someone ancient Babylon. Regardless of how smart they are, there is going to be some difficulty.

But eventually they would get it.

Erica would have a leg up on the Babylonians since she already understands the principles behind the technology.

I am not saying that she couldn't. But you were equating people being able to drive a future car with understanding how the technology WORKS and how the knowledge is applied (and then presumably taking that technology and knowledge and applying it on your own, in a different fashion). Not an easy task, no matter how smart you are. It would be like giving an MP3 player to an ancient egyptian and saying okay, now build a computer.

But unlike the Egyptian, Erica already understands the technology that goes into an MP3 due to her study of the technology that gave way to the invention of an MP3.

Unless she was afraid if she started while Solar was alive he would have a good chance of stopping her.

Sure

[BloodOfHeroes]

If you asked BloodofHeroes, he'd tell you that one of those stops is VH 2 because he saw the Lost Land in an issue of the Eternal Warriors comic, lol

Not only would he tell you that, but it's canonical. Lots of appearances in VH-2 Turok and ETERNAL WARRIORS.

And ETERNAL WARRIORS *also* shows a VH-1 map with a big ol' chunk of Texas missing. VH-2 respected and understood what VH-1 did and was (well, the Jeff Gomez-edited books did, for sure), in spite of some VH-2 broad-brushing that takes place here from time to time.

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

If you asked BloodofHeroes, he'd tell you that one of those stops is VH 2 because he saw the Lost Land in an issue of the Eternal Warriors comic, lol

Not only would he tell you that, but it's canonical. Lots of appearances in VH-2 Turok and ETERNAL WARRIORS.

And ETERNAL WARRIORS *also* shows a VH-1 map with a big ol' chunk of Texas missing. VH-2 respected and understood what VH-1 did and was (well, the Jeff Gomez-edited books did, for sure), in spite of some VH-2 broad-brushing that takes place here from time to time.

BoH

Respect is not a word that comes to mind, specially in light of Fab's poll idea to have readers choose between the characters to see which versions they wanted to have after 99.

That did not respect anything about VALIANT continuity (i.e. Rai #0), in fact it was a plan designed to get rid of it.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Respect is not a word that comes to mind, specially in light of Fab's poll idea to have readers choose between the characters to see which versions they wanted to have after 99.

That did not respect anything about VALIANT continuity (i.e. Rai #0), in fact it was a plan designed to get rid of it.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Respect is not a word that comes to mind, specially in light of Fab's poll idea to have readers choose between the characters to see which versions they wanted to have after 99.

That did not respect anything about VALIANT continuity (i.e. Rai #0), in fact it was a plan designed to get rid of it.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

BoH

[cjv]

Erica would have a leg up on the Babylonians since she already understands the principles behind the technology.

She understands the principles behind OUR technology. Whose to say that technology in 4001 relies on the same principles?

But unlike the Egyptian, Erica already understands the technology that goes into an MP3 due to her study of the technology that gave way to the invention of an MP3.

But the point you are missing is that the technology used in 4001 (or whenver she built her machines) might be completely different. Sure, she might know how an MP3 player works, but that might be so ancient and outdated it is pointless.

You seem to be assuming that we have reached the pinnacle of science and technology now, and that nothing based on NEW theories, NEW ideas will ever be developed. It will all be based on everything we already have.

That's may be true, but it is a stretch to assume it is true.


Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Erica would have a leg up on the Babylonians since she already understands the principles behind the technology.

She understands the principles behind OUR technology. Whose to say that technology in 4001 relies on the same principles?

But unlike the Egyptian, Erica already understands the technology that goes into an MP3 due to her study of the technology that gave way to the invention of an MP3.

But the point you are missing is that the technology used in 4001 (or whenver she built her machines) might be completely different. Sure, she might know how an MP3 player works, but that might be so ancient and outdated it is pointless.

You seem to be assuming that we have reached the pinnacle of science and technology now, and that nothing based on NEW theories, NEW ideas will ever be developed. It will all be based on everything we already have.

That's may be true, but it is a stretch to assume it is true.


Chris

No, I'm not assuming that.

What I'm telling you is that the principles behind a technology remain the same regardless of what form that technology takes, and that someone as smart as Erica would have no problem understanding future tech even if she were to go from the turntable directly to the Ipod without going through the Walkman first.

That's the point I'm trying to make here.

Erica had to exist for 2000 years in a linear existence, which forced her to study different technologies throughout every stage of their development.

In terms of past techs, she had to go from the turntable, to the walkman, to the cd, to the ipod in order to understand how the Ipod works.

Had she gone through the Lost Land in the first place, she would have been able to skip directly from the turntable to the Ipod without having to waste time with the walkman and the cd player.

Learning how to use the Ipod after only using the turn table would have taken her considerably less than 2000 years since she wouldn't have had to waste time with technologies (i.e. walkman and cd player) that came inbetween both inventions.

[ManofTheAtom]

BTWif they do a Solar hardcover, reprinting issues 0-4 or 5 (or whatever), how cool would it be to have a Pierce story as the "original material"?

Chris

Pierce 2008, with art by BWS and story by Shooter, and keeping with the religious tone of A&O, it should be called Revelations.

[cjv]

What I'm telling you is that the principles behind a technology remain the same regardless of what form that technology takes, and that someone as smart as Erica would have no problem understanding future tech even if she were to go from the turntable directly to the Ipod without going through the Walkman first.

That's not true at all.

Electric lights, for example, are based on a different principle than candles. Heck, even our modern lights are based on a different principle that things like halogen lights, but they both allow for illuminating an area.

Phonographs are bsaed on a different principle that MP3 players, but they both allow for listening to music.

Rocket engines are based on a different principle than hot air balloons, but they both allow for flight.

As knowledge advances, we may design new "toys" that replace older technology. They may do very similar things, but they are based on different technology, different science, different knowledge. And understanding of how the previous works MAY NOT automatically aid in trying to understand how the new one works.

Yes, it you talk about PDA's and computers being based on the same principles, you are correct. But your time scale is MUCH MUCH to small. Since we are talking about a period of about 2000 years, you need think about technology that was around in Roman times, compared to technology of today.

Are there some concepts that are the same? Sure there are - the wheel, for example. If you build a machine based on a wheel, with the wheel being the central concept (a pulley for example) someone who understands a pulley back then will understand it now.

But that is probably more the exception than the rule.

Erica had to exist for 2000 years in a linear existence, which forced her to study different technologies throughout every stage of their development.

Absolutely. But you were saying that she could have saved time by coming and going through the Lost Land to the different time periods where she needed to get technology, and then could have "understood it". Could she have saved some time? Probably, because she wouldn't have had to wait until a technology was invented, she could just go and cherry-pick what she wanted. But then she would have had to spend year a) figuring out how the technology worked, and b) figuring out how to adapt the technology to do what she wanted). And, of course, you would need to allow for time to search through different time periods and FIND the technology she wanted.

On the other hand, by living through the eras, she had to wait for the technology to be invented, but she would also have been able to follow the discovery/invetion progress, and once the discovery was made, she would probably be ready to use it.

IMO, she probably would have saved some time by going through time and cherry picking what she wanted, but the exact amount of time? I am not sure. It really depends on what her machine was and did, and what how many different technologies/scientific principles went in to making it.

In terms of past techs, she had to go from the turntable, to the walkman, to the cd, to the ipod in order to understand how the Ipod works.

No, again, much to short a time scale. The turntable to the Ipod was what...150 years? Well, that would be saying that Pierce had everything she needed by 2150 (give or take). Do you really think she waited 1850 years for Unity for other reasons?

Had she gone through the Lost Land in the first place, she would have been able to skip directly from the turntable to the Ipod without having to waste time with the walkman and the cd player.

If everything she needed would have been invented in 150 years. She spent 2000 years building up for Unity - I suspect that at least half of that was waiting for the right technology and scientific theories that she needed.


And for the record, MP3 players are based on entirely different technology than things like record players. Records players record in indentation on a plastic sheet, the depth of the indentation is based on the sound. REcord players actually have a more in common with CD's (which also work with indentations). However, an MP3 player converts sound directly to digital signal - 0's and 1's. Nothing analog about it. And an MP3 player converts those 0's and 1' back to sounds. To understand a phonograph, you need to know that sounds makes waves. To understand an MP3 player, you need to know electrical engineering.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Absolutely. But you were saying that she could have saved time by coming and going through the Lost Land to the different time periods where she needed to get technology, and then could have "understood it". Could she have saved some time? Probably, because she wouldn't have had to wait until a technology was invented, she could just go and cherry-pick what she wanted. But then she would have had to spend year a) figuring out how the technology worked, and b) figuring out how to adapt the technology to do what she wanted). And, of course, you would need to allow for time to search through different time periods and FIND the technology she wanted.

Sure, but that would still considerably cut down her timetable.

On the other hand, by living through the eras, she had to wait for the technology to be invented, but she would also have been able to follow the discovery/invetion progress, and once the discovery was made, she would probably be ready to use it.

The time required to discover a technology is not necessarily the same as the time requiered to use the technlogy.

Look at Jurarik Park as an example.

IMO, she probably would have saved some time by going through time and cherry picking what she wanted, but the exact amount of time? I am not sure. It really depends on what her machine was and did, and what how many different technologies/scientific principles went in to making it.

Yep

No, again, much to short a time scale. The turntable to the Ipod was what...150 years? Well, that would be saying that Pierce had everything she needed by 2150 (give or take). Do you really think she waited 1850 years for Unity for other reasons?

No, she waited 2000 years because she was trapped in a linear existence and needed to wait for the technology to be created.

If everything she needed would have been invented in 150 years. She spent 2000 years building up for Unity - I suspect that at least half of that was waiting for the right technology and scientific theories that she needed.

Right, but had she discovered the Lost Land, she wouldn't have needed to wait 2000 years for the technology to be created, and it would NOT have taken her 2000 years to learn how to use it.

[cjv]

Thanks for splitting this out!

She may very well have been FORCED to live a linear timeline - that's completely an option. The more I think about it, the more I think that being forced to do it, combined with a fear that if she did too much (using her power, looking for a place to launch Unity, etc) while Solar was alive, he would find and stop her.

And you know, that could completely work in the idea of the "bringing back Erica" storyline. See that thread for more details.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Thanks for splitting this out!

She may very well have been FORCED to live a linear timeline - that's completely an option. The more I think about it, the more I think that being forced to do it, combined with a fear that if she did too much (using her power, looking for a place to launch Unity, etc) while Solar was alive, he would find and stop her.

And you know, that could completely work in the idea of the "bringing back Erica" storyline. See that thread for more details.

Chris

I don't disagree with the idea of bringing Erica back, I just disagree with the idea of making her a "good guy" to replace Solar.

How about if Erica was behind the scenes on many of the things that gave way to the world of the 41st Century, like maybe she was one of the scientists working on the project that became Grandmother?

[cjv]

Thanks for splitting this out!

She may very well have been FORCED to live a linear timeline - that's completely an option. The more I think about it, the more I think that being forced to do it, combined with a fear that if she did too much (using her power, looking for a place to launch Unity, etc) while Solar was alive, he would find and stop her.

And you know, that could completely work in the idea of the "bringing back Erica" storyline. See that thread for more details.

Chris

I don't disagree with the idea of bringing Erica back, I just disagree with the idea of making her a "good guy" to replace Solar.

How about if Erica was behind the scenes on many of the things that gave way to the world of the 41st Century, like maybe she was one of the scientists working on the project that became Grandmother?

That would be cool. Although again, she might have been afraid to make herself too well known, for fear of being discovered by Solar or some other hero.

Although if she had helped with Grandmother, presumably she might have known more about Rai's energy, and not been so confused by it.


Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Thanks for splitting this out!

She may very well have been FORCED to live a linear timeline - that's completely an option. The more I think about it, the more I think that being forced to do it, combined with a fear that if she did too much (using her power, looking for a place to launch Unity, etc) while Solar was alive, he would find and stop her.

And you know, that could completely work in the idea of the "bringing back Erica" storyline. See that thread for more details.

Chris

I don't disagree with the idea of bringing Erica back, I just disagree with the idea of making her a "good guy" to replace Solar.

How about if Erica was behind the scenes on many of the things that gave way to the world of the 41st Century, like maybe she was one of the scientists working on the project that became Grandmother?

That would be cool. Although again, she might have been afraid to make herself too well known, for fear of being discovered by Solar or some other hero.

Although if she had helped with Grandmother, presumably she might have known more about Rai's energy, and not been so confused by it.


Chris

1.- She could have used an alias a la Max Blackwell.

2.- Rai came around about 150 years after Grandmother gained free will and 250 years after Grandmother was created. Just because Erica could have been involved in her creation it doesn't mean that she would have been in Japan when Grandmother created Rai or discovered/developed the Energy

[ManofTheAtom]

(well, the Jeff Gomez-edited books did, for sure)BoH

I'll say this, having recently read quite a few VH 2 comics, it became clear to me that Jeff was a very important part of VH 2, and once he left the books did in fact turned to *SQUEE*.

[IanAlexavier]

You guys are going to write the new books right?? LOL, I just want to be able to read them and enjoy them.. thats ALL Im asking
Seriously.. is this what writers do? Or is this MORE than writers generally do? Maybe GOOD writers sit down and hash this stuff out like what you guys are doing?

[ManofTheAtom]

Maybe GOOD writers sit down and hash this stuff out like what you guys are doing?

I'd like to believe that...