What do you think?

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:40 pm

Dr. Solar wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:I think someone managed to fast talk someone at CGC......
Ya think?

Ayup.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:41 pm

caxiotis wrote:I aggre with ZephyrWasFAT!!.

<GASP!!>

You take that back RIGHT NOW, MISTER!!!

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:47 pm

myron wrote:
Dr. Solar wrote:Calling that an "ivory variant" or a "gold printing error" is ridiculous.

I hope nobody gets swindled into paying any sort of premium for what is essentially a sub-par book.

In my mind, this is similar to a badly centered Rai #3, which is worth less to most people than a well-centered Rai #3. The printing got screwed up and made a book incorrectly. The version that comes out incorrectly from the printer is worth less than a version that comes out correctly.

Since X-O Manowar #0 is essentially worthless, this is then less than worthless.
.... ....

Me too.

...

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:48 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:(oh, and for those dancing around the issue like large African elephants, the PINK is NEITHER a "gold misprint" NOR a "regular misprint" [using the nomenclature, not saying it's not a misprint absolutely]....it's something different from everything else. Is it a "mistake"? NO ONE YET KNOWS....HOWEVER...it is my opinion, for whatever that's worth, that the book was made on purpose, for whatever reason, because there are too many things "different" about the book to make it "accidental."

Occum's razor...there are just too many things "wrong" with this book for it to have been an error....there had to have been a conscious mind behind it at some point...BUT I COULD BE WRONG, and this could be a genuine "oops" error.

The point.....? None of us (yet) knows.)

I would believe it is a misprint.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:13 pm

Chiclo wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:(oh, and for those dancing around the issue like large African elephants, the PINK is NEITHER a "gold misprint" NOR a "regular misprint" [using the nomenclature, not saying it's not a misprint absolutely]....it's something different from everything else. Is it a "mistake"? NO ONE YET KNOWS....HOWEVER...it is my opinion, for whatever that's worth, that the book was made on purpose, for whatever reason, because there are too many things "different" about the book to make it "accidental."

Occum's razor...there are just too many things "wrong" with this book for it to have been an error....there had to have been a conscious mind behind it at some point...BUT I COULD BE WRONG, and this could be a genuine "oops" error.

The point.....? None of us (yet) knows.)

I would believe it is a misprint.

Consider:

Gold logo with silver "shadow" (regular is all "silver/platinum"; this is just like the gold version)

Pink logo box. (this color does not exist on any other known Valiant logo box.)

White compass circle. (if the pink was a "mistake", the entire white area of the logo box, including inside the compass circle, would be pink, because it is supposed to all be one color - white.)

Price. (only on the regulars, not the golds....so, why the gold logo?)

Too many things to be a "misprint" to me, unless you had Larry, Moe, & Curly running the presses that day.....and even then, if it was a "misprint"...where are the rest? Presses run at hundreds to thousands of copies a minute (assuming the chromium covers were printed the same way...there's some debate about this)....did EVERY misprinted copy get "noticed and trashed" but this sole survivor....?

Ehhhhhhhhhh......COULD be.

Occum's razor, though. Everything else would be just too wildly coincidental.

greg · Post by **greg** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:24 pm

I agree with the "keep it simple" guesses...

My first guess on the Bloodshot 0 Pink was this...

The title matches exactly with the Gold edition title (Gold lettering).
The white inside the compass matches exactly with the Gold edition compass (White inside).
The price box is unlike any other price box we've seen (Pink, except for the white circle in the compass, like Gold).

So, it seems to be "related" to the Gold edition in a couple of ways,
the title being the main clue, but also the "white inside" on the compass.

Since the Gold ink on Bloodshot 0 Gold is very dark,
perhaps the Gold price box ink was "laid down" on top
in possibly the final step... which didn't occur for this issue.

I'm not sure the exact process of printing the Gold issues,
but it seems like they would do it in the least amount of steps,
using the least amount of changes from printing the regular copies.

Though the box is now "pink", my guess is that it was never meant
to be seen at all... it was supposed to be covered up by gold ink, just
a single step that didn't happen.

Seems easier than someone going through all the trouble to make one (or a few) on purpose.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:27 pm

Well, I tried to make a picture of all four titles with logo boxes, but I'm lame, and have no photoshop, and clearly no skills.

So, until someone comes along and does it for me, use your imagination.

Image 1 - Bloodshot #0 Regular logo + box

Image 2 - Bloodshot #0 Gold

Image 3 - Bloodshot #0 Plat

Image 4 - Bloodshot #0 Pink

All stacked on top to bottom.

Here's my lame attempt...

I couldn't get rid of the white.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:28 pm

Presumably, the print run would be some multiple of four.

Greg sounds pretty spot-on here. They had a gold that instead of going through the process where they fill the box in with gold, it filled the box in with a price.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:31 pm

greg wrote:I agree with the "keep it simple" guesses...

My first guess on the Bloodshot 0 Pink was this...

The title matches exactly with the Gold edition title (Gold lettering).
The white inside the compass matches exactly with the Gold edition compass (White inside).
The price box is unlike any other price box we've seen (Pink, except for the white circle in the compass, like Gold).

So, it seems to be "related" to the Gold edition in a couple of ways,
the title being the main clue, but also the "white inside" on the compass.

Since the Gold ink on Bloodshot 0 Gold is very dark,
perhaps the Gold price box ink was "laid down" on top
in possibly the final step... which didn't occur for this issue.

I'm not sure the exact process of printing the Gold issues,
but it seems like they would do it in the least amount of steps,
using the least amount of changes from printing the regular copies.

Though the box is now "pink", my guess is that it was never meant
to be seen at all... it was supposed to be covered up by gold ink, just
a single step that didn't happen.

Seems easier than someone going through all the trouble to make one (or a few) on purpose.

Ok....

Now explain the $3.50 price.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:38 pm

Chiclo wrote:Presumably, the print run would be some multiple of four.

Greg sounds pretty spot-on here. They had a gold that instead of going through the process where they fill the box in with gold, it filled the box in with a price.

Assuming they could so easily program the presses (and they maybe could, I couldn't get a clear answer from any Printers relating to 1993 technology), unless the pink was some sort of "primer" color for the gold to stick to (which doesn't make sense when you consider the title, which is gold), why then is there a price? If it was the gold process, the "price" black plate wouldn't (theoretically) even BE on the press!

According to people who have disassembled chromiums, the clear plastic overlay is what is printed on....so, the price would have had to have been printed first. But if the plate with the price was in the press (and they certainly didn't HAND stamp the price on), then it wasn't the gold process at all.

The plats being mistakes makes much, much more sense (even though we have people who worked at Valiant who are stating that the plats were on purpose, too), since we know a few even made it through the distribution process unnoticed...unless, of course, they were placed randomly in the process on purpose.....who knows?

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:41 pm

I really wish I could see this in person, it would (perhaps) unmuddy the water a bit to compare all "four" BS0 versions side by side....it looks to me like the gold title logo for "pink" is a different shade/texture than the regular golds. Dunno, though, could be a trick of pixels.

(Gosh, I don't EVER remember being this non-committal.

)

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:49 pm

(for the record, we can also rule out "ink slosh", because of the registry of the pink around the compass circle. If it was slosh, the registration alignment wouldn't exist.)

Here are a couple of sites that I found useful...

http://www.invitesite.com/white_pages/p ... esses.html

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/offset-printing2.htm

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/offset-printing4.htm (this was especially helpful)

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:58 pm

Here are my thoughts on the X-O Ivory error, now being the only person on this board who has seen an authetic Ivory error.
Although it appears Gold ink was used in printing this comic, I believe the only mistake CGC made was calling this the Gold Edition. Therefore I'm agreeing with Greg on his point that it was incorrect to do so.
This book has the appearance of having a translucent veneer of Ivory over the entire surface. The normally silver areas have a golden tint, and all areas on the front and back cover that are normally white look like Ivory. I've seen hundreds of copies of the book over the years, and this is the only copy like this I've seen. To the person who stated this copy is subpar, that couldn't be further from the truth. It's quite a beautiful enhancement, and would be the ultimate addition to any Valiant fans' collection.
I must say, I'm not sure about the comment about 'people making things up.' I'm approaching 6,000 postive feedbacks on eBay with no negatives, and having owned several comic book stores, bought and sold hundereds of thousands of comics, and having been in the hobby more years than I care to remember, I'm not particularly fond of that being said. As for the owner of this book, Robert Letscher of Key Comics, I've dealt with him for years and there is no question as to his integrity. His feedback on eBay is quite impressive also. Robert, at times an advisor to Overstreet, former contributor to Comic Book Marketplace and Wizard VIP, has been selling Valiants on eBay since the late nineties, and off eBay continuously since Valiant's inception. If you were around when Valiant was in it's heyday, then you may have purchased from him yourself, as Robert was into Valiant from the beginning, having been running full-page ads in the CBG and other trade mages of the day. He may have been 'onto' the quality of Valiant before anyone else, having bought a quantity of Magnus 1 and going from there.
Although over the years Robert had mentioned this beautiful book to me from time to time, I'm just now seeing it for the first time today, as it was just taken out of Robert's safe deposit box, where he held it for years, and finally sent it off to CGC for certification.

chainnball · Post by **chainnball** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:00 pm

I could totally buy Greg's explanation if not for the price. The price (black ink) is printed on first from the inside of the back cover, and all other colors added on top of that. The foil is then laid on top of the ink. Therefore the gold would not cover up the price. I peeled a book to verify this. I just wish another would show up, and who knows...maybe some day one will. I will have it in NY if anyone wants to see it.

chainnball · Post by **chainnball** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:25 pm

I seem to have at least 3, from left to right, ivory to white.

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:31 pm

The problem with calling this an "ivory error" is where you draw the line between what is an error and what isn't. When is it an ivory error and when is it not? Half of my X-O 0's are off white instead of white. They aren't as off-white as this copy appears, but there is a range. Obviously the printing was not consistent in this print run. That is no big deal. It happens all the time. I know people have pointed out how Solar #1 varies in color amongst the print run, and plenty of other books do the same. It is extremely hard to get a set of prints to be exactly the same.

The only explanation that seems to make sense for this book is that it is an extreme case of a printing discrepency inherent to the entire print run.

Is this an error? No.

Is this a discrepency? Yes.

Is this a big deal? Maybe to the right person, but to me, no.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm

It seems like less of a variance to me than Rai 0 Glossy.

myron · Post by **myron** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:34 pm

Chiclo wrote:It seems like less of a variance to me than Rai 0 Glossy.

and we KNOW the reason for that is a difference in the stock used...

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:46 pm

myron wrote:
Chiclo wrote:It seems like less of a variance to me than Rai 0 Glossy.
and we KNOW the reason for that is a difference in the stock used...

Ugh.....and the self server who pimped the HEIL out of it.....

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:47 pm

Dr. Solar wrote:The problem with calling this an "ivory error" is where you draw the line between what is an error and what isn't. When is it an ivory error and when is it not? Half of my X-O 0's are off white instead of white. They aren't as off-white as this copy appears, but there is a range. Obviously the printing was not consistent in this print run. That is no big deal. It happens all the time. I know people have pointed out how Solar #1 varies in color amongst the print run, and plenty of other books do the same. It is extremely hard to get a set of prints to be exactly the same.

The only explanation that seems to make sense for this book is that it is an extreme case of a printing discrepency inherent to the entire print run.

Is this an error? No.

Is this a discrepency? Yes.

Is this a big deal? Maybe to the right person, but to me, no.

I'm going to sell my Solar #1 "Violet" for BIG BUCKS!!!

myron · Post by **myron** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:48 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
myron wrote:
Chiclo wrote:It seems like less of a variance to me than Rai 0 Glossy.
and we KNOW the reason for that is a difference in the stock used...
Ugh.....and the self server who pimped the HEIL out of it.....

...yeah, there is that too, but I have a selective memory and it had selected to NOT remember that point...

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:50 pm

myron wrote:
ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
myron wrote:
Chiclo wrote:It seems like less of a variance to me than Rai 0 Glossy.
and we KNOW the reason for that is a difference in the stock used...
Ugh.....and the self server who pimped the HEIL out of it.....
...yeah, there is that too, but I have a selective memory and it had selected to NOT remember that point...

Sadly, who and what are inextricably linked in my mind now. Bleagh.

Worse than a carnival side show barker......

caxiotis · Post by **caxiotis** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:33 pm

chainnball wrote:I seem to have at least 3, from left to right, ivory to white.

That is exactly what my two Ivory look like as compared to the other four white ones I have. And like I said before, if we want to get technical all of the chromiums are a little different in shade in tone of colors through all of the chromium books I have seen. The pink is definitely not in the X_O Ivory category.

caxiotis · Post by **caxiotis** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:39 pm

StarBrand wrote:Here are my thoughts on the X-O Ivory error, now being the only person on this board who has seen an authetic Ivory error.
Although it appears Gold ink was used in printing this comic, I believe the only mistake CGC made was calling this the Gold Edition. Therefore I'm agreeing with Greg on his point that it was incorrect to do so.
This book has the appearance of having a translucent veneer of Ivory over the entire surface. The normally silver areas have a golden tint, and all areas on the front and back cover that are normally white look like Ivory. I've seen hundreds of copies of the book over the years, and this is the only copy like this I've seen. To the person who stated this copy is subpar, that couldn't be further from the truth. It's quite a beautiful enhancement, and would be the ultimate addition to any Valiant fans' collection.
I must say, I'm not sure about the comment about 'people making things up.' I'm approaching 6,000 postive feedbacks on eBay with no negatives, and having owned several comic book stores, bought and sold hundereds of thousands of comics, and having been in the hobby more years than I care to remember, I'm not particularly fond of that being said. As for the owner of this book, Robert Letscher of Key Comics, I've dealt with him for years and there is no question as to his integrity. His feedback on eBay is quite impressive also. Robert, at times an advisor to Overstreet, former contributor to Comic Book Marketplace and Wizard VIP, has been selling Valiants on eBay since the late nineties, and off eBay continuously since Valiant's inception. If you were around when Valiant was in it's heyday, then you may have purchased from him yourself, as Robert was into Valiant from the beginning, having been running full-page ads in the CBG and other trade mages of the day. He may have been 'onto' the quality of Valiant before anyone else, having bought a quantity of Magnus 1 and going from there.
Although over the years Robert had mentioned this beautiful book to me from time to time, I'm just now seeing it for the first time today, as it was just taken out of Robert's safe deposit box, where he held it for years, and finally sent it off to CGC for certification.

I don't think that anyone thinks that you are making things up. We are just questioning the validity of CGC's decision to call this an error or whatever it is. You integrity is not being called into question.

caxiotis · Post by **caxiotis** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:42 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
caxiotis wrote:I aggre with ZephyrWasFAT!!.
<GASP!!>

You take that back RIGHT NOW, MISTER!!!

You're right she definitely was thin.

ValiantFans.com Board - Since 2004

What do you think?

My thoughts On The X-O Ivory Logo Book

Re: My thoughts On The X-O Ivory Logo Book