CGC out of hand

[MedicAR]

Keep in mind, most of the market thinks we're nuts for putting together runs of Valiant!

The market is what it is. Regardless, I'm sticking to my Overstreet "bible." If I don't get the books I'm after, so be it. I have to admit I've been paying over guide for many of the books I need to finish my Valiant collection off. That's what I want to do and it makes me happy! If others want to do the same to get a particular grade on a book, go for it! Just like a lot of collectors don't understand us and our Valiant collecting, I don't understand paying a lot of money for a book I can't look at. No one here is right or wrong, they're just collecting what they want to collect!

The big thing to remember here is that this is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun!

[400yrs]

Thanks to the big cheese GREG, and his excellent explanation above...I will not have to get ornry and vituperative with this "Shaxper" dude

The market decides. I simply feel that the market has decided poorly, and that there are reasons for this beyond "confidence".

If you read up on anything pertaining to the market economy, you will discover that the market is ALWAYS efficient and therefore, cannot decide poorly. Individuals may decide poorly, however, all those individuals combined make up the market.

The market has shown, at least presently, that the CGC product can add value in some (maybe most?) cases and have no (or a laughable) effect in others.

[400yrs]

But I still don't see the point in paying 5x the issue's value to guarentee its condition.

Average price for a "raw" Magnus #12? About $20.

Price for a "guaranteed" 9.6? $17.50.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2289726826

I saw that one along with the Solar 1. Nice grabs!! And you didn't pay a fortune for the CGC Confidence!!

[ckb]

But I still don't see the point in paying 5x the issue's value to guarentee its condition.

Average price for a "raw" Magnus #12? About $20.

Price for a "guaranteed" 9.6? $17.50.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2289726826

I saw that one along with the Solar 1. Nice grabs!! And you didn't pay a fortune for the CGC Confidence!!

Add $20 to get this reslabbed, and the price is about right. Good work, especially if you just want a RAW copy, and are not going to reholder it.

[DawgPhan]

But I still don't see the point in paying 5x the issue's value to guarentee its condition.

Average price for a "raw" Magnus #12? About $20.

Price for a "guaranteed" 9.6? $17.50.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2289726826

I saw that one along with the Solar 1. Nice grabs!! And you didn't pay a fortune for the CGC Confidence!!

Add $20 to get this reslabbed, and the price is about right. Good work, especially if you just want a RAW copy, and are not going to reholder it.

It cost $20 to reslab a book? Or do they need to regrade it and everything when the case is damaged? Dont they say that all books should be reslabbed every 7 years? I know they dont expect every one to re-up every 7 years...

[400yrs]

According to the CGC website, $11 to re-holder with a 10 day turnaround

[DawgPhan]

According to the CGC website, $11 to re-holder with a 10 day turnaround

But when they reholder do they look at the book? I guess I could go look for myself, but you didnt include a link..

If the slab is damaged on a book you submit for a reholdering do they glance at the book to see if it was also damaged or just slap it in a new slab with a new label and be done with it. hmmm..oh wait...

[ckb]

Take a minute and think. Have you ever filled out a CGC submission form?

Unless you live in Sarasota and drop off and pick up, the cost will be AT LEAST $20, probably more. They only ship registered mail on return, and it ain't free.

According to the CGC website, $11 to re-holder with a 10 day turnaround

[DawgPhan]

When you said $20 I thought that you meant that was the rate and I would still have to pay shipping both ways on it. Didnt sound crazy to me if it was a flat rate considering what slabbing some books will cost you, but it seemed a bit much for a modern...anyway do the regrade the book during reholdering?

[MedicAR]

If you read up on anything pertaining to the market economy, you will discover that the market is ALWAYS efficient and therefore, cannot decide poorly. Individuals may decide poorly, however, all those individuals combined make up the market.

I'm no economist, which I'm sure you'll recognize shortly , but the above statement seems to have holes in its logic. Individuals make up the market, individuals decide poorly, but the market doesn't decide poorly?

I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's correct. Just because the masses decide one thing for awhile and swing the market to their way of thinking, doesn't make it right. Sooner or later, people come to their senses, quit making bad decisions, and the market adjusts accordingly. I don't know if this will hold true with CGC though. Right now, I still consider CGC to be a fad. Give it five more years, if it's still here and strong, I'll adjust my thinking

It has been my understanding that the Overstreet guide is a reflection of the market anyway. Advisors from across the country pool their knowledge and resources to come up with averages which make up the prices in the guide. That being the case, the OPG actually IS a reflection of the market. The prices in the coming years may reflect a larger gap in pricing from the average grades to the higher grades. If this is the case, it's a result of the effect CGC has had on the market.

Just like movies have increased interest in particular titles, causing prices to climb during the time between the annual guides, CGC is likely to have the same effect with particular grades (the high ones!). Unfortunately, I don't have a crystal ball here, and don't know what will happen to the more "average" grade books. Will they become more sought after since the high grades have higher price tags? Will prices fall on the "average" grades because all the interest is placed on the high end? Or, will prices simply continue to rise across the board, with the only significant change being at the top of the grading spectrum?

The way I see it, CGC is a major change in the hobby, and change in anything is rarely welcomed with open arms across the board. Lots of dinosaurs (i.e. people like me) will never truly accept it, while newer collectors will never remember the hobby without it. I still maintain that if you're in comics solely for money, you should have your head examined. If you truly enjoy them and can occasionally turn a profit too, you're probably way ahead of the game!

[400yrs]

If you read up on anything pertaining to the market economy, you will discover that the market is ALWAYS efficient and therefore, cannot decide poorly.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's correct. Just because the masses decide one thing for awhile and swing the market to their way of thinking, doesn't make it right. Sooner or later, people come to their senses, quit making bad decisions, and the market adjusts accordingly. I don't know if this will hold true with CGC though. Right now, I still consider CGC to be a fad. Give it five more years, if it's still here and strong, I'll adjust my thinking

I'm not an economist either. That stuff gives me headaches. I'm an accountant!!


I believe everything you said here is correct!! The only thing that is not applicable is the "right or wrong" decision you refer to. The market knows no "right or wrong." It is simply efficient.

I happen to agree with you that many of these crazy prices will level out over time - maybe a long time. Frankly, I thought it would have started to happen already, but I was wrong. I think the older books that are CGC'd will probably stay strong, but the drop-off will come in modern age books, because most are in great shape with or without the 9.6, 9.8, 9.9, or 10 designation.

As someone else posted before, OPG seems to be having a difficult time figuring what to print as prices and grades.

It is a huge change to the hobby, but other collecting hobbies such as coins have had maintained a successful grading service for a long time. Many see it as a positive change. I believe it to be positive as well. For example - I've been able to purchase mid-grade silver age CGC'd books for overstreet prices. I know what I am getting from the dealer and don't have to worry about a "F/VF" book actually being G- when it comes to my doorstep from the seller.

Although I sometimes don't agree with the way CGC does things, I think that comic grading is here for the long haul.

[400yrs]

According to the CGC website, $11 to re-holder with a 10 day turnaround

But when they reholder do they look at the book? I guess I could go look for myself, but you didnt include a link..
:

It doesn't say on the website.

BTW, I'm compu-challenged --> How do you put a link? Is it just copy and paste or do you have to do something fancy?

thanks

[MedicAR]

It is a huge change to the hobby, but other collecting hobbies such as coins have had maintained a successful grading service for a long time.

I know that coins and sports cards have had these services for some time, the primary difference is that you can still see the entire item even when it's "slabbed," not so with comics. Grading HAS been a huge boon to those hobbies.

I may simply have a different definition of "efficient." You are right though, the concepts of right and wrong are ideas I apply to the market, but since I know everything, they still apply! All kidding aside though, I see what you're saying, like the rising of the sun, or the falling of the rain, there is no "right or wrong," the market just is (that was your moment of Taoist Zen for the day!).

I still think we will see an adjustment, just like we did with the boom in the 90's. While the CGC books definitely WON'T wind up in the quarter bins, I think we'll see them fade a bit outside of the extreme high end. It's great that someone has a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15, but if it only rates a 1.0 from CGC, who cares? Wouldn't it be better to have it out so you can enjoy it and read those rarely reprinted back up stories?

I definitely disagree with how CGC does things, a fine modern book shouldn't be a very fine golden age, but jumping up and down screaming about hasn't done me a bit of good so far.

[greg]

BTW, I'm compu-challenged --> How do you put a link? Is it just copy and paste or do you have to do something fancy?

Just copy the whole address starting with the http
and the board will make it a link automatically.

As far as Overstreet is concerned...
I think that there are two very strong reasons that Overstreet can't keep up...
One is obviously CGC, but the other one is Ebay.

CGC started in about 2000, and Ebay got popular in the late 1990s...
Since then, Overstreet has had a hard time justifying that they use
"surveys" from dealers around the country.

There's no way that every dealer will give input on every title,
in every grade, based on actual sales...
So Overstreet has always been basically 98% re-print of whatever
was printed the year before (plus some general percentage increase).
The "market" wasn't really followed except for about 2% of books.

Ebay re-defines the market every day. When any book is sold on Ebay,
that sale outweighs any "opinion" of value. Obviously, the more sales studied,
the better a price guide would be... but it really doesn't matter anymore
if Dealer Jones says he's selling UltraBoy #1 for $15 if it sells everyday
on Ebay for $3.

CGC only increases this effect of Ebay because grades are no longer
completely subjective. Overstreet KNOWS that it's impossible to reflect
a market that is so visible, so obvious, and so dynamic...
especially in a "once-a-year" printed price guide.
(Notice how they dropped high grade pricing, even for raw books.)

That's not to say that Overstreet is totally useless...
Obviously a large portion of collectors at least consult Overstreet
when making purchases for their collections, raw or graded.
But the reality is that a true market price... fluctuating daily...
is right there for all to see... and always more up-to-date than print.

It takes a lot more than the opinions of a few dozen random dealers
and book editors to dictate the market in the 21st century.
We no longer have to "take their word" for it.

[Peter Parker]

Greg,

fantastic dude, you hit most of the vital points i've put forth at the top of the post, but did it in a more polite, and "gentlemanly" manner

I'll simply add one more analogy of "market" vs. Overstreet for those that need the clarity. Take VALIANT comics for example For YEARS now (and that includes THIS yrs edition) they've had Harbinger# 1 for $6.00! This yr? $6.00 We ALL know this book trades on average of...what G-man? $25.00 in NM RAW?

There are a plethora of other books from Marvel and DC I could also mention, that don't sell at Overstreet prices on the "market" either...its a dying tool collectors, at least from an ACTUAL and accurate monetary vantage point that is

[Vault-Keeper]

Great post, Greg!

[ckb]

If the slab is cracked/damaged, I believe they do make sure the book has not been damaged as well. Reholder is a good deal at a show where you do not have to pay shipping, cause you can't mix a reholder invoice with another invoice, meaning your reholder invoice must ship (back to you) separately. You can mix on the way in, of course.

When you said $20 I thought that you meant that was the rate and I would still have to pay shipping both ways on it. Didnt sound crazy to me if it was a flat rate considering what slabbing some books will cost you, but it seemed a bit much for a modern...anyway do the regrade the book during reholdering?

[DawgPhan]

According to the CGC website, $11 to re-holder with a 10 day turnaround

But when they reholder do they look at the book? I guess I could go look for myself, but you didnt include a link..
:

It doesn't say on the website.

BTW, I'm compu-challenged --> How do you put a link? Is it just copy and paste or do you have to do something fancy?

thanks

On this board you should just be able to copy and paste it. On other boards the steps are a little different

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Greg,

fantastic dude, you hit most of the vital points i've put forth at the top of the post, but did it in a more polite, and "gentlemanly" manner

I'll simply add one more analogy of "market" vs. Overstreet for those that need the clarity. Take VALIANT comics for example For YEARS now (and that includes THIS yrs edition) they've had Harbinger# 1 for $6.00! This yr? $6.00 We ALL know this book trades on average of...what G-man? $25.00 in NM RAW?

There are a plethora of other books from Marvel and DC I could also mention, that don't sell at Overstreet prices on the "market" either...its a dying tool collectors, at least from an ACTUAL and accurate monetary vantage point that is

No...it's merely becoming what it purported to be since 1970: a REFLECTION of the market, rather than SETTING same.

Big difference.

[justin]

Awesome thought there Greg!!

~A

[Shakespeare]

think NO SURPRISES is really the reason why I buy graded books more now.

Sound, I'll disagree with you on this. Sometimes I'm surprised when I open a box with a CGC...take the impression on the back of Harbinger #0 9.6 for example. I was surprised, not because CGC let it through like that (because [hey Zeph!] such things as printing marks are allowed), but because it was something that wasn't mentioned when it was sold to me...which negates the "CGC is great for when you can't hold something in your hands" argument. Other things that can surprise you: damage while in the holder, damage to the holder in shipping, fading, yellowing (for if you buy the book from someone in Mississippi).

Peter, it seems your buying the right books, and you've agreed that not every modern should be slabbed. But what...and here's my question...what makes your Batman 232 worth dozens of times more than an unslabbed copy? If you said to the person who offered you $2500 for it "I'll take your money, but first I'll remove it from the slab," would they still take it? No. I understand your need to argue for CGC...you're protecting your investment.

[Peter Parker]

Well..

First to Zeph...I disagree my friend, because its obviously NOT a reflection of the market, and that's my point, thanks for helping

Shakes...

Your question puzzels me..."what makes my CGC copy worth more than a raw copy"?

This is where the CGC attackers are making mistakes. How many RAW 9.8 Batman# 232 do you think EXIST let alone assuming my slabbed copy is only worth that much because its slabbed Guys, Guys...this is a bad mistake you're making, SILVER age NM/M books are NOT common, at all! THAT is what makes my copy that much more valuable. It's not a 9.4 (which isn't that easy to find in that book either actually)

The problem is the CGC "haters" tend to be incredulous about the fact that there IS a difference in these books, you just don't find them "raw", and this goes for MANY CGC graded books. Many of you take this crazy idea of "damn, why pay that for a slab, when you can find it raw for much less"

NO, YOU CANNOT...THEY DON'T EXIST! For those that are going to think "sure they do, the one you own was raw at one time"

Yes, and anybody who even has the skill in grading to notice such a gem in their collection is going to grade it, immediately. I feel badly for all the folks out there who honestly believe you can find HG Golden/Silver...and in some cases Bronze age books raw anymore, it's really not that easy folks

[MedicAR]

So let me make sure I understand this.... there is a magic cave where these books just appear slabbed?

These books DO exist raw, I attended an auction outside of Kansas City this past August, and saw some honest-to-God beauties! Some G.I. Combats that were pristene, a stunning run of Neal Adams' X-Men and Green Lantern/Green Arrow and a Tales of Suspense run to die for, among others. They were as nice as any new copies you could find on the stands. I'm sure they are on their way to CGC now. The truth is, you CAN find high grade beauties out there, you have to be patient and network, like we do here!

I talk with dealers all over the country, I get cards and web addresses at every show I attend, you never know when these dealers will come up with the perfect book for you! I asked a dealer at the last show I attended why he didn't slab his collection of Golden Age keys, and his answer is the same as mine, "There is more to these books than the front and back covers." He didn't have the prices on his books the dealers on either side of him had on their CGC goodies, but it looked like he did a better business too. He may have been simply changing out books every couple of hours, but when I asked about a Pep #13 he had earlier (a sweet cover with bondage and torture!), he told me I should have jumped on it, as it had sold. I did pick up a really sharp Weird Fantasy #16, that I'm sure most people would send off, it's a black cover that has a single stress mark on the spine. It's glossy, with off white pages, sharp corners, and clean staples. The best part? I picked it up for a fraction of guide!

And back to the Harby #0, printing marks are allowed?!?!?!?!?!? So, as long as the printer screws up my copy, it's still NM? That's right up there with relaxed standards for Golden Age books. CGC is as inconsistent and subjective as any other grader, they just have a cooler storage bag!

[x-omatic]

And back to the Harby #0, printing marks are allowed?!?!?!?!?!? So, as long as the printer screws up my copy, it's still NM? That's right up there with relaxed standards for Golden Age books. CGC is as inconsistent and subjective as any other grader, they just have a cooler storage bag!

That is not only CGC's standard but also Overstreets. You will find the indents on the back of almost every copy. In fact I have never seen a copy that didn't have the marks. They are not wear. You can have a "perfect graded" even with a miss-stapled cover. It is not wear.

[Zero]

My point is, collectors NEED to stop focusing on the "guide" i.e. Overstreet and start RE-focusing on the MARKET itself. Overstreet has recently taken the NM 9.4 grade OUT OF THE BOOK...know why? because GRADED CGC 9.4 books were extremely volatile, and it was difficult for sellers and buyers to strap down an "average". Overstreet (in an agreed deal with CGC) capitulated, gave in to the pressure.

Probably the best post I've read today on this topic! Great point! What does Overstreet think a Bloodshot 0 platinum is worth & what does the market say? For most rarer Valiants for that matter... Guides can't keep their 'finger' on the pulse of the industry like other forums can these days. ~Erskine