Origin of Harada - discussion

[Chiclo]

In the Star Trek mumble-jumble science, the anti-matter reactions, which are particle-anti-particle annihilations, create energy that is then run through warp coils, which fold the space.

An anti-matter reactor could exist not connected to one. What is happening here is when you have an anti-particle, like a positron (another name for an anti-electron), that runs into it's corresponding particle (electron in this case) both particles turn into energy. Positrons are the easiest to make because they are about 2000 times smaller than Negatrons, or anti-protons, but they are much harder to deal with because it's much more likely to run into an electron than a negatron is to run into a proton AND on top of that, they attract one another.

The problem with an anti-matter reactor is that once you have the energy... what do you do with it? It disperses very quickly. They can make anti-matter now. They can make anti-matter reactions. They don't have any way of harnessing it. It's just firecrackers for the moment.

[ManofTheAtom]

Positrons are the easiest to make because they are about 2000 times smaller than Negatrons, or anti-protons, but they are much harder to deal with because it's much more likely to run into an electron than a negatron is to run into a proton AND on top of that, they attract one another.

But if a scientist found a way to deal with them, he'd be a genius and might get backing for a reactor of his own, right?

The problem with an anti-matter reactor is that once you have the energy... what do you do with it? It disperses very quickly. They can make anti-matter now. They can make anti-matter reactions. They don't have any way of harnessing it. It's just firecrackers for the moment.

So the fictional aspect of Phil Seleski might not so much be on what the reactor does, but on his ability to do what real scientists can't do, which is harness anti-matter, right?

[Chiclo]

Positrons are the easiest to make because they are about 2000 times smaller than Negatrons, or anti-protons, but they are much harder to deal with because it's much more likely to run into an electron than a negatron is to run into a proton AND on top of that, they attract one another.

But if a scientist found a way to deal with them, he'd be a genius and might get backing for a reactor of his own, right?

Absolutely. Wait - let me take that back - he should in a just world, but this is the government.

The problem with an anti-matter reactor is that once you have the energy... what do you do with it? It disperses very quickly. They can make anti-matter now. They can make anti-matter reactions. They don't have any way of harnessing it. It's just firecrackers for the moment.

So the fictional aspect of Phil Seleski might not so much be on what the reactor does, but on his ability to do what real scientists can't do, which is harness anti-matter, right?

Harnessing anti-matter is not as tricky as harnessing the energy released. It is very tricky but can be moved in a magnetic field in a vacuum. Possibly... a magnetic bottle... which could then turn into a cup if something went wrong...

Depending on the amount of anti-matter in play, that would be a very devastating explosion. If the flow were stopped and you get a backlog of it, that could be very bad.

[Dr. Solar]

The problem with an anti-matter reactor is that once you have the energy... what do you do with it? It disperses very quickly. They can make anti-matter now. They can make anti-matter reactions. They don't have any way of harnessing it. It's just firecrackers for the moment.

Don't most power generators use steam turbines to generate power? Same could be done here, use the energy to make something hot that boils water.

Maybe that's an over-simplification.

I thought the trick was finding something to make the water turn to steam, whether it's coal or fissible/fusible/anti-matterable material.

[ManofTheAtom]

Absolutely. Wait - let me take that back - he should in a just world, but this is the government.

If it was for the government, he'd get backing for a reactor of his own, right?

Harnessing anti-matter is not as tricky as harnessing the energy released. It is very tricky but can be moved in a magnetic field in a vacuum. Possibly... a magnetic bottle... which could then turn into a cup if something went wrong...

Depending on the amount of anti-matter in play, that would be a very devastating explosion. If the flow were stopped and you get a backlog of it, that could be very bad.

So it's an anti-matter reactor then.

[cjv]

E=mc2

That's the science behind the machine, that energy and matter are the same.

Using that logic, simply because that is a scientific law, you could say that is the "science" behind all harbinger powers, immortals, geomancers, etc.

Seleski NEVER states, as far as I know, what his reactor is supposed to do, or the science behind it. IF he does, then I am wrong. But all we are ever told about it is that it is a reactor.

And as such, there is NO science that would say any kind of reactor could grant someone powers, simply because "E=mc^2".

You are confusing a scientific law with a theory on how he got his powers. Just because E=mc^2 doesn't mean that there can exist a magical reactor to grant someone energy moving powers.

Before I respond to the turbines thing, I will wait to see if someone else has.


Chris

[Chiclo]

Anti-matter is not the definite answer here. He does mention anti-(something) pumps, but it is a strong possibility. I don't think there is a definite answer here.

The problem with an anti-matter reactor is that once you have the energy... what do you do with it? It disperses very quickly. They can make anti-matter now. They can make anti-matter reactions. They don't have any way of harnessing it. It's just firecrackers for the moment.

Don't most power generators use steam turbines to generate power? Same could be done here, use the energy to make something hot that boils water.

Maybe that's an over-simplification.

I thought the trick was finding something to make the water turn to steam, whether it's coal or fissible/fusible/anti-matterable material.

This is way different than a carnot cycle. It's just energy - there. Energy disperses, quickly. Maybe the best relatable example I can think of is harnessing the power of a bomb going off - taking that energy and making it work. You can't just have a matter-anti-matter reaction out in the open and magically have it turn on a light bulb.

[ManofTheAtom]

Using that logic, simply because that is a scientific law, you could say that is the "science" behind all harbinger powers, immortals, geomancers, etc.

Seleski NEVER states, as far as I know, what his reactor is supposed to do, or the science behind it. IF he does, then I am wrong. But all we are ever told about it is that it is a reactor.

And as such, there is NO science that would say any kind of reactor could grant someone powers, simply because "E=mc^2".

You are confusing a scientific law with a theory on how he got his powers. Just because E=mc^2 doesn't mean that there can exist a magical reactor to grant someone energy moving powers.

However, we are NEVER told how the "wish machine" works, what it is based on.

But we don't know what that "real science" is.

I think you are missing my point. You are postulating that Phil's "wish machine" may use centuries advanced real technology and theory. I am saying you could postulate that, but there is no real evidence that anything like that is possible in current accepted real scientifc theoy (as opposed to something like Jules Verne, which WAS based to some degree on existing scientific theory).

You asked what the science behind Phil's reactor was.

Since it escaped your notice, I'll point it out.

We're not debating whether or not falling into a reactor would transform someone into energy (that's fantasy), we're debating what real science was behind Phil's reactor.

That science is E=mc2.

[cjv]

Sure, it's fun. I agree.

But I think there is a point where you have to say, "well, it's just a thing they used as a plot device in a comic, and it isn't a real world posiibility". I think that is what Phil's reactor is.

That's the way I look at it.

Valiant tried to keep as much grounded in "real world" science as possible.

The reactor Phil built just isn't. It's a device that was used to create the Valiant Universe in A&O.

And that's fine.

Phil commented his powers were based on "moving energy", since it is all energy. Again, trying to be scientific.

They didn't have dead people coming back, they tried to keep the real laws of physics, etc. That is great.

But Phil's reactor is simply implausible - the idea of creating a machine that can turn someone into energy while keeping their consciousness AND suddenly becoming all powers isn't realistic, and that is the point I am trying to make. Just because Valiant tried to stick with science, and as Chiclo said, threw scientific words and concepts around, doesn't mean that the reactor was real science.

Now, what about the idea that Phil himself imbued the VH-1 universe with "Solar energy" subconsciously, and this allowed for the creation of VH-1. That is, he didn't "change an atom" at the big bang or something, but rather there is some "part" of Phil imbued in every atom and molecule in the universe of VH1.

Chris

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

But Phil's reactor is simply implausible - the idea of creating a machine that can turn someone into energy while keeping their consciousness AND suddenly becoming all powers isn't realistic, and that is the point I am trying to make. Just because Valiant tried to stick with science, and as Chiclo said, threw scientific words and concepts around, doesn't mean that the reactor was real science.

You're talking about two different things there.

An anti-matter reactor (just an average, run of the mill matter/anti-matter reactor) is plausible... an anti-matter reactor that turns people into energy is fantasy.

We're debating the kind of reactor Phil was working on, nothing more and nothing less, and whether or not such a reactor (again, an average, run of the mill matter/anti-matter reactor) could exist in the real world.

It may not exist today, but maybe in 100, 200, or 500 years it will, meaning that science (real world science) supports the existance of such a machine, which means that Phil was thinking on levels beyond what average scientists were doing.

[Chiclo]

E=mc^2 is a tool. It's an equation that says that energy and mass can be converted to one another by a ratio of the square of the speed of light. It doesn't even deal with moving energy, only converting it to mass - to matter.

It tells you how much energy is released in a nuclear reaction by measuring the difference in mass of the source material and the daughter materials. It tells you how much energy is released when there is a particle-anti-particle annihilation.

It does not turn men into gods. If anti-matter had touched Seleski, he would turn into ambient energy. Getting that energy organized and focused and turned into Max Blackwell or Solar or post-Edgewater Seleski or the Fireproof Man or whatever you want to call him is not defined by E=mc^2. The best explanation for that lies in metaphysics, in the realm of the soul.

[Dr. Solar]

This is way different than a carnot cycle. It's just energy - there. Energy disperses, quickly. Maybe the best relatable example I can think of is harnessing the power of a bomb going off - taking that energy and making it work. You can't just have a matter-anti-matter reaction out in the open and magically have it turn on a light bulb.

Gotcha. I was thinking somehow that the energy could be applied, in the form of heat, to some material that would transfer the heat to water, make steam which spins a turbine with a shaft attached to a generator and make electricity.

I feel relatively OK about creating the electricity from a reservoir of heat. It is just that first part, taking the energy from whatever reaction and turning it into a reservoir of heat that I was totally just pulling out of my squass.

[ManofTheAtom]

Anti-matter is not the definite answer here. He does mention anti-(something) pumps, but it is a strong possibility. I don't think there is a definite answer here

An anti-matter reactor could exist not connected to one. What is happening here is when you have an anti-particle, like a positron (another name for an anti-electron), that runs into it's corresponding particle (electron in this case) both particles turn into energy. Positrons are the easiest to make because they are about 2000 times smaller than Negatrons, or anti-protons, but they are much harder to deal with because it's much more likely to run into an electron than a negatron is to run into a proton AND on top of that, they attract one another.

[cjv]

You asked what the science behind Phil's reactor was.

Since it escaped your notice, I'll point it out.

We're not debating whether or not falling into a reactor would transform someone into energy (that's fantasy), we're debating what real science was behind Phil's reactor.

That science is E=mc2.

Okay, fair enough. Broad question, broad answer. I think you are avoiding the specific question, but that's okay.

In addition, all reactors are then based on E-mc^2. But as far as I know, no other reactor that we know of, or can theorize of, can turn a person into Solar. Right?

This also opens the question - did the reactor turn Phil into Solar? Was it something else specifically about Phil that allowed him to become Solar (and also Erica?). Would it have done the same to anyone? What was "special" - Phil...or the reactor?

Chris

[Chiclo]

That last panel posted really does suggest an anti-matter reactor.

Did they ever call it Nuclear, or was that something I am remembering wrong? If it is anti-matter, it's not nuclear.

[ManofTheAtom]

E=mc^2 is a tool. It's an equation that says that energy and mass can be converted to one another by a ratio of the square of the speed of light. It doesn't even deal with moving energy, only converting it to mass - to matter.

It tells you how much energy is released in a nuclear reaction by measuring the difference in mass of the source material and the daughter materials. It tells you how much energy is released when there is a particle-anti-particle annihilation.

The reactor wasn't build to move energy, there's no indication of that. It was built to be a reactor that provides power, maybe an alternate to nuclear and fossil fuels. There's no indication that it was intended to deal with moving energy.

We're talking about the science behind the reactor, not the science behind Phil's transformation.

It does not turn men into gods. If anti-matter had touched Seleski, he would turn into ambient energy. Getting that energy organized and focused and turned into Max Blackwell or Solar or post-Edgewater Seleski or the Fireproof Man or whatever you want to call him is not defined by E=mc^2. The best explanation for that lies in metaphysics, in the realm of the soul.

That's the fantasy part of the story, which is another debate separate from what the reactor was built for.

It's like what happened with Alec Holland when he became Swamp Thing.

If someone were to analize the science behind his formula they might find some real science behind it, but when it comes to his soul/consience merging with the plants of the swamp, that's entirely fictional.

We're still debating the science of the reactor, we haven't moved to the next debate that concerns Phil's soul when he was changed into energy, but you guys seen lost and insist on connecting the two for some reason.

Let me put it like this.

In My Mother The Car a woman's soul was reincarnated into a car. Does that mean that the car didn't work like a car? That it didn't have an engine? That the whipers didn't work? That the car lighter didn't light?

No, the car worked perfectly, it just had a soul in it, a fantasy concept that was completely unrelated to how the car worked before the soul was placed in it.

[Dr. Solar]

Wasn't it "Edgewater Nuclear Facility"?

The existence of anti-protons doesn't necessarily mean it is an antimatter reactor. It just means it used anti-matter as part of the process.

[cjv]

But Phil's reactor is simply implausible - the idea of creating a machine that can turn someone into energy while keeping their consciousness AND suddenly becoming all powers isn't realistic, and that is the point I am trying to make. Just because Valiant tried to stick with science, and as Chiclo said, threw scientific words and concepts around, doesn't mean that the reactor was real science.

You're talking about two different things there.

An anti-matter reactor (just an average, run of the mill matter/anti-matter reactor) is plausible... an anti-matter reactor that turns people into energy is fantasy.

We're debating the kind of reactor Phil was working on, nothing more and nothing less, and whether or not such a reactor (again, an average, run of the mill matter/anti-matter reactor) could exist in the real world.

We are talking about two different things. I am not talking about whether an anti-matter reactor could exist in the real world. I am talking about whether ANY reactor could exist that did to Phil what his did to him. And I say no. You can call his reactor an anti-matter reactor, you can call it a positronic reactor, you could call it a Mickey Mouse reactor - but it is still a leap of imagination to say that whatever kind of reactor it was could grant him powers.

It may not exist today, but maybe in 100, 200, or 500 years it will, meaning that science (real world science) supports the existance of such a machine, which means that Phil was thinking on levels beyond what average scientists were doing.

Again, it seems to me that you are combining two thing. When you say "Phil's reactor" do you mean simply something like an anti-matter reactor? Or do you mean some sort of magical wish machine that could turn someone into Solar? Because I would certainly say the former could exist at some point, while the latter can't/won't. Real world science may support the notion of a anti-matter reactor (or whatever it was) but it doesn't support the notion of a "wish machine that can turn people into super powered energy beings". I am drawing a distinction between the two, and am saying that they (Valiant) were just calling it a "reactor" for simplicity sake, to try and stick with somewhat realistic science.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

You asked what the science behind Phil's reactor was.

Since it escaped your notice, I'll point it out.

We're not debating whether or not falling into a reactor would transform someone into energy (that's fantasy), we're debating what real science was behind Phil's reactor.

That science is E=mc2.

Okay, fair enough. Broad question, broad answer. I think you are avoiding the specific question, but that's okay.

In addition, all reactors are then based on E-mc^2. But as far as I know, no other reactor that we know of, or can theorize of, can turn a person into Solar. Right?

This also opens the question - did the reactor turn Phil into Solar? Was it something else specifically about Phil that allowed him to become Solar (and also Erica?). Would it have done the same to anyone? What was "special" - Phil...or the reactor?

Chris

I'd say Phil.

And one correction.

An anti-matter reactor might (would?) transform someone into energy. Phil's reactor transformed him into consious energy.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wasn't it "Edgewater Nuclear Facility"?

The existence of anti-protons doesn't necessarily mean it is an antimatter reactor. It just means it used anti-matter as part of the process.

There's the name.

[Dr. Solar]

There's the name.

*SQUEE* man, making me read?

[ManofTheAtom]

That last panel posted really does suggest an anti-matter reactor.

Did they ever call it Nuclear, or was that something I am remembering wrong? If it is anti-matter, it's not nuclear.

It was an Advanced Fusion Energy Research Center.

Energy could refer to anything from nuclear, to cold fusion, to anti-matter, right?

[cjv]

An anti-matter reactor might (would?) transform someone into energy. Phil's reactor transformed him into consious energy.

Not just conscious energy, but conscious energy that somehow had the power the manipulate and control all other forms of energy. Conscious energy that could control itself as well (instead of just disappating)

Although in fairness, no one really knows what happens when you get transformed into conscious energy. Maybe everyone who is can manipulate all forms of energy and matter, regardless if they had a Edgewater facility or not.

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

There's the name.

*SQUEE* man, making me read?

But... but... it's a message board, you have to read regardless!!

[Chiclo]

Fusion. Which is smashing little atoms into big atoms.

Btw - the leap from science outside my window to Valiant comics here is the conscious energy.

But, the question is answered that easily. It's a fusion reactor.