CGC out of hand

Djk300 · Post by **Djk300** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:55 pm

Get a load of this.

If anyone is interested, I have the 3 same issues non graded and Ill sell them for 10,000!!! Half that price! bid away true believers!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 74828&rd=1

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:03 pm

Djk300 wrote:Get a load of this.

If anyone is interested, I have the 3 same issues non graded and Ill sell them for 10,000!!! Half that price! bid away true believers!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 74828&rd=1

WOW look at all those bids!!!!!

tssgery · Post by **tssgery** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:17 pm

Good lord!

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:26 pm

CGC has always been out of hand. I don't understand why graded copies go higher than ungraded in the same condition. For example: Oversteet lists book "X" (A generic listing, not that crap from Dark Horse

) in FN for $50, but if it gets CGC'd it goes for $85. CGC'ing a book shouldn't increase its value, it should guarantee it. I can see the difference if you're going from NM to Mint and going a bit above guide. The price guide lists prices for the condition, why go ABOVE that just to have it sealed in stupid plastic case? By the same token, I actaully enjoy my comics and enjoy looking through them! I like the musty smells, the bad stories and art from the Golden Age and just the feel of comics in general!! (nothing weird meant by that

) As far as I'm concerned CGC is nothing but a speculator gimmick.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:44 pm

My theory is that CGC is a result of a badly labelled Modern Age of comics. There's a general rule that Golden Age is worth money, Silver age is worth some money, Bronze age is worth less money, and anything published in the last 25 years shouldn't earn over $3 unless there's something amazingly extraordinary about it. I think Uncanny X-Men 266 is the single most valuable widely released news stand regular edition issue published by one of the top companies in the last twenty years, and that's worth like $50. Ironically, comic collecting didn't really catch on until the time of the modern age. So here we have all these frusterated collectors from the past 25 years who are now disenchanted because Bob Overstreet grew up in the 60s. They decide "Well, if my f-ing Origin #1 will never be worth anything, even though it's super cool and important, maybe it would be more special if it were absolutely free of defects to the point that a super computer couldn't detect a ding in the cover". Thus, CGC, which entered the market for entirely different stupid reasons, becomes an obsessive collecting venue for people who are otherwise frusterated that the issues they bought on the stands will never become as valuable as they were supposed to.

Problem is, with no investment potential in the modern age, new potential collectors are discouraged from getting into comics. Thus, back issue sales decline (no one to sell them to) and values go down across the board. It's bad business. They need to turn the 1980s and 90s into "The Copper Age", start building up prices of any comic that wasn't overproduced with multiple hologram covers (many of those excess million copies are rotting in badly cared for junk bins anyway), and get new collectors excited that comics in 2004 might be worth something in ten years.

/soap box

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:53 pm

Huh....hadn't thought of it that way....Good Point!

I'd still rather have my books the way I have my steaks....raw!

New collectors just don't seem to get the idea that rarity is everything. Even special variants (manufactured collectibles) only go up because of the total number available to be had. FF #1 is rare because no one saved comics in 1961 the way they do now. Action #1 is even rarer because no one saved comics in 1939 like the did in 1961. I still haven't decided if the variants are a fad or the real deal, as most have only a different cover.

Just my 2 cents worth.....23 cents more and I can start rebuilding my American Flagg collection!

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:01 pm

I see your point, but the American Dream of comic collecting is centered around reading your favorite stories and, maybe, one day discovering one of those issues is now worth a fortune. For some people, it's even about finding the first appearance of that hot new character that will be worth a grand one day, or a monumental death or something. To base collecting primarily upon scarcity is a bit sad. True, it's supply and demand, but it isn't fun, and it usually doesn't deal with cherished, favorite characters either.

If something HUGE happens to a favorite character (Spider-Man, Batman, etc) the availability of the comic shouldn't affect prices that much. Let's face it. In the age of ebay and major back issue distributors, few comics are THAT hard to get a hold of, so print runs shouldn't be an issue unless we're talking Bloodshot #1, where everyone and his grandma has six near mint copies bagged and boarded in the garage. If I want an issue, there's a certain amount I'll pay for it, whether it's print run was a thousand or ten million, unless it's thoroughly impossible to come by or so common that everyone already has two.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:08 pm

x-omatic said it... "Look at those bids!"

Who cares what someone lists an auction for...?
If no one bids, then it's not a transaction, and it's not part of the market.

For books that actually are bought and sold...
Does anyone really believe that CGC is responsible for the market prices?
Really? I mean, seriously? Really?!?

When did CGC sell a single book?
When did they choose a single starting bid?
Or better yet, when did CGC determine any ending bid?

Any comic book that is sold online has a price.
Raw books have a price. Graded books have a price.
But that price is not only the value of the book.
We might want to think that value of the book = the price...
But whatever the final bid is... the price is always equal to
the value of the book plus (or minus) the value of the confidence.

Raw books follow the same rules as graded books.
When someone with zero feedback lists a raw Silver Age key issue in NM condition,
it WILL NOT sell for the same amount of money as a reputable dealer
selling the same raw Silver Age key issue in NM condition.
Why not? Confidence = $$$.

CGC books are just raw books plus a generally accepted confidence about condition.
That's it. The price is the value of the book plus the confidence value.

Suppose you are going to buy a near mint copy of Ultimate Extreme Superior Man #123...
Your choices will include one or more of the following...
a raw book, a bad seller, a good seller, a fantastic grader, a CGC graded book,
some other professionally graded book, a poor scan, a bad reputation,
a good reputation, someone you know, someone you've bought from before,
someone you've never bought from, a large high-quality scan, someone in another country...

EVERY one of them could be selling the exact same book...
and every one of the books could be in the exact same condition.

Which one will sell for the most money?
I can't tell you which books will sell for what price,
but I can tell you that the difference in price is all about confidence.
Different prices can't be all about the book itself... the book is the same.

How much is confidence worth? I say, let the market decide.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:34 pm

Thanks to the big cheese GREG, and his excellent explanation above...I will not have to get ornry and vituperative with this "Shaxper" dude

Yet ANOTHER "graded book hater" for illogical reasons, that an educated mind cannot decifer

BTW...the idiot selling those Origin books will get not a ONE bid...proving Greg's post prophetic and accurate.

Folks, the worlds GREATEST comic books are SLABBED people, most likely for perpetuity

..i'd get use to it kids...

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:02 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Thanks to the big cheese GREG, and his excellent explanation above...I will not have to get ornry and vituperative with this "Shaxper" dude

Greg and I are not necessarily in disagreement. The market decides. I simply feel that the market has decided poorly, and that there are reasons for this beyond "confidence". I've seen members of this board buzzing about 9.9 and perfect 10 CGCs, certainly not for issues of confidence. Grading has become a collectible commodity all its own.

As for my comments being indecipherable and illogical, which parts?

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:46 pm

Shaxper...I know not where to start?

Folk like yourself give in to this deluded theorum of some kind of...CGC conspiracy

It's propaganda dude, kind of like the current Democratic party

Do you believe in Global warming as well???

Sure, there are ignorant collectors (mostly neophytes at best in this hobby) that buy the "grade" or "label" when purchasing graded books. However, what YOU and MOST "graded book haters" tend to misunderstand are the FACTS regarding CGC books in specific.

There are tens of MILLIONS of dollars in CGC books my man, MOST in collections of very affluent, and reputable collectors...and there is a REASON for such. High grade collectors WANT what they PAY for...period! I have spent LOTS of cash on graded books, and have had ZERO issues with it..know why?

1) I get what I paid for (yes, CGC makes mistakes in grading, but they'll make up for it if you mention it, AND at least HEAR your complaint) 2) I buy books that are hardly COMMON in 9.6/9.8 or even 9.4 grade. 3) and Lastly, for insurance, or investment purposes, the "slabbed" book carries MAJOR weight to the "layman" observer out there in never, never land.

MY insurance company recently insured my collection for FIVE TIMES over guide BECAUSE of the CGC "legitimacy" in everday market sales that I provided to them. I realize many collectors are annoyed at the high premiums paid for slabbed books, or the PERCIEVED injustice of CGC books as a "scam"..but frankly, that theorum only equates on MODERN books, of which perhaps only..1% are CGC worthy

Archival, collectible, HIGH GRADE books NEED to be graded by a 3rd party, its VITAL to the longevity, and collectibility of the material. It's a grade given by an impartial 3rd party, and encapsulated for long term survival. The monetary aspects of this process are simply intangebles of said procedure.

You and others. need to stop thinking of CGC grading as an option for EVERYONE (although it PHYSICALLY is) and start understanding its ACTUALLY a MUST for HG collectors who wish to preserve, and enhance, the books inherent, long term importance. Go find lets say... for example...Amazing Spider-man#122 in the BEST "raw" grade you can, and I guarantee you, it will NEVER approach the level of demand MY ASM# 122 CGC 9.8 will on any given day..period!

::edited by Greg - removed unnecessary final statement. ::

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:01 pm

Peter Parker wrote:
Folk like yourself give in to this deluded theorum of some kind of...CGC conspiracy It's propaganda dude, kind of like the current Democratic party Do you believe in Global warming as well???

Actually, I never suggested anything of the kind. I never stated anything regarding CGCs actions or intentions. I only talked about why collectors in the marketplace value CGC.

I'd say I'm not the one who's deluded here.

Sure, there are ignorant collectors (mostly neophytes at best in this hobby) that buy the "grade" or "label" when purchasing graded books. However, what YOU and MOST "graded book haters" tend to misunderstand are the FACTS regarding CGC books in specific.

I can't wait to hear more about "YOU". This should be fun.

There are tens of MILLIONS of dollars in CGC books my man, MOST in collections of very affluent, and reputable collectors...and there is a REASON for such. High grade collectors WANT what they PAY for...period! I have spent LOTS of cash on graded books, and have had ZERO issues with it..know why?

This has nothing to do with my point. What line of logic are you refuting?

1) I get what I paid for (yes, CGC makes mistakes in grading, but they'll make up for it if you mention it, AND at least HEAR your complaint) 2) I buy books that are hardly COMMON in 9.6/9.8 or even 9.4 grade. 3) and Lastly, for insurance, or investment purposes, the "slabbed" book carries MAJOR weight to the "layman" observer out there in never, never land.

MY insurance company recently insured my collection for FIVE TIMES over guide BECAUSE of the CGC "legitimacy" in everday market sales that I provided to them. I realize many collectors are annoyed at the high premiums paid for slabbed books, or the PERCIEVED injustice of CGC books as a "scam"..but frankly, that theorum only equates on MODERN books, of which perhaps only..1% are CGC worthy

Archival, collectible, HIGH GRADE books NEED to be graded by a 3rd party, its VITAL to the longevity, and collectibility of the material. It's a grade given by an impartial 3rd party, and encapsulated for long term survival. The monetary aspects of this process are simply intangebles of said procedure.

My posts had nothing to do with the legitamacy or purpose of CGC. The second you saw me saying anything negative in relation to CGC, you made an assumption and put words in my mouth.

You and others. need to stop thinking of CGC grading as an option for EVERYONE (although it PHYSICALLY is) and start understanding its ACTUALLY a MUST for HG collectors who wish to preserve, and enhance, the books inherent, long term importance. Go find lets say... for example...Amazing Spider-man#122 in the BEST "raw" grade you can, and I guarantee you, it will NEVER approach the level of demand MY ASM# 122 CGC 9.8 will on any given day..period!

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic of the amount people are paying for second hand CGCed issues (which I feel is often too high).

::edited by Greg - removed unnecessary final statement ::

::edited by Greg - removed response ::

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:57 pm

Multiple (additional) posts which were off-topic have been deleted.

Let's get back to civil and on-topic discussion, please.
(Additional posts which are off-topic, even if "thankful" will be deleted.)

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:06 pm

OH, almost forgot...

CGC..is NOT out of hand

Greg..that IS on topic my fine fellow

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:16 pm

Peter Parker wrote:OH, almost forgot...

CGC..is NOT out of hand

Greg..that IS on topic my fine fellow

Nicely done... (but your additional comments have also been deleted.)
There's no need to "set any record straight"... there is no record.
The record has been deleted.

Off-topic posts should beware of radioactive decay

To get the posts even further back "on topic"...

I don't pretend to know the "appropriate value" of the confidence that CGC
adds to the final price of a comic book, however, it is quite obvious
that like the book itself, prices for "confidence" are subject to fluctuation.

Case in point... I happily added Solar #7 CGC 9.8 to my collection this week for $56.49.
And... I paid the "minimum confidence premium" that we have seen so far.
http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/Gr ... =620&g=9.8

Is $56.49 too much to pay for an $8 book with plastic on it?
Probably so... and I won't be at all surprised if the price continues to fall...
But I'm a satisfied buyer today, and that's really all that I can control, right?

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:24 pm

I Do see your point, Greg. And yes, even Peter Parker had a point about the necessity of CGC (or something like it) to serious collectors. I'd imagine that, if I were purchasing an Action Comics #1, I'd be very sure to have a third party evaluate the condition before purchasing.

But what this ebay seller with the origin issue was eroniously counting on was the fanatics who attach some tremendous importance to collecting perfect 10.0 editions, and will pay premium for it, driving up the values. Granted, no one is as crazy as this seller is hoping. He's an exaggeration of the phenominon, but the phenominon is there.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:37 pm

It may not be the case every time...
But I believe the fact that the seller had a dozen auctions running
had something to do with the "crazy pricing".

What's the old saying...
Any press, even bad press, is a good thing.

He was most likely hoping for a chain-reaction of collector outrage...
followed by the "this guy is crazy, what else is he crazy about?" reaction
where everyone would "view seller's other auctions" and potentially bid
on one of the other not-so-crazy lots.

It's ridiculous pricing, I definitely agree.
It's cheap trick, I also agree.
But, if it sells the other books, it's probably worth it to him.

After all... how many full-page advertisements offering $1,000,000
for a non-existent Action Comics #1 in absolutely perfect condition
have you seen printed in comic book magazines and guides?
Is that $1,000,000 offer all they put in those ads?
Or are they also trying sell you something, too?

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:41 pm

Nice point. I hadn't considered that.

Okay, so this guy may well have had ulterior motives.

But I'm still concerned about this "perfect 10" phenomenon. I'm afraid its taking the focus entirely away from the intrinsic value of having a particular issue, and making it all about a condition most of us couldn't evaluate with our own eyes.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:54 pm

shaxper wrote:Nice point. I hadn't considered that.

Okay, so this guy may well have had ulterior motives.

But I'm still concerned about this "perfect 10" phenomenon. I'm afraid its taking the focus entirely away from the intrinsic value of having a particular issue, and making it all about a condition most of us couldn't evaluate with our own eyes.

I whole-heartedly agree... but CGC isn't really about the "10".
99.8% of CGC graded books aren't 10s.

It's easy to focus on that 0.2% because it has the biggest dollar signs,
but it's really not about the books. It's about the novelty.

Comic collectors have always said,
"This is the nicest copy I've ever seen, I don't see a single flaw."
Sometimes, they're lying because it could be more profitable to lie...
and sometimes, it's the most honest statement it could be.

CGC is just a third-party making that same statement about a book.
There's novelty in the idea that someone who's not selling the book would
say that it's the best copy they could imagine... but it's just a novelty.

I'd much rather have a CGC 9.0 of a $1,000 book than a 10.0 of a $10 one...
particularly if the price is the same.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:56 pm

shaxper wrote:But I'm still concerned about this "perfect 10" phenomenon. I'm afraid its taking the focus entirely away from the intrinsic value of having a particular issue, and making it all about a condition most of us couldn't evaluate with our own eyes.

Nothing to be concerned about (I've enjoyed reading your posts, BTW).

Some people might collect Valiants for reading purposes, some might want a full set (that would be me), and some might want a nice set of 9.8s. We're all collecting, we're just collecting slightly different things.

There are so many comics on Ebay that are barely worth cover price that sell for much, much more once they are in the slab. So some folks are clearly just going for the CGC grade. There's one dude I've noticed that bids on just about anything that's 9.8, no matter what the comic is.

If it works for them, fine.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:00 am

*edit: this post was in reply to greg*

Then we're (sort of) in agreement. I was never attacking the purpose of CGC in this thread. In looking back through my posts (again) I don't see myself making that claim anywhere. I was attacking this trend of making collectibles out of perfect grade CGCs, regardless of CGC's purpose, usefulness, or intent.

I'm still not a fan of CGC. I don't personally have a use for it, and I do feel that it eliminates the purpose of collecting comics when you can't open them and read them. But for those of it who are collecting for the dollars rather than the sentiment, It does make sense. I guess you could buy a CGC for confidence and then open it up upon receipt, but does anyone really do that? Even still, I'd rather purchase five supposedly mint Solar #1s for $10 each than pay $56 for one CGCed one.

That's just my opinion on the matter, though. It's not my business whether anyone else CGCs or not, so long as it doesn't interfere with the regular comic book market, and that's where my concern for these "Perfect 10" collectors comes in. They're collecting these conditions; not paying for confidence.

Djk300 · Post by **Djk300** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:01 am

I do buy cgc books but Im not after the perfect 10. I get some cgc for the assurance that the book is in the condition I want and I am willing to pay for it.

I saw for example astonishing xmen 9.8 variant cassidy cover go for $120.00

I got the same issue 9.4 and a texas wolverine The End 9.4 both for $50.00.

Its near mint and Im happy.

Now for other older books I might want the third party grading system like the other people mention for golden age and other key issues.

This way (CGC) your assured of the grade and what your willing to pay for it.

I dont care if it is 9.6, 9.8 10 because I think 8.0 to 9.4 is fine by my standards.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:03 am

depluto wrote:
shaxper wrote:But I'm still concerned about this "perfect 10" phenomenon. I'm afraid its taking the focus entirely away from the intrinsic value of having a particular issue, and making it all about a condition most of us couldn't evaluate with our own eyes.
Nothing to be concerned about (I've enjoyed reading your posts, BTW).

Some people might collect Valiants for reading purposes, some might want a full set (that would be me), and some might want a nice set of 9.8s. We're all collecting, we're just collecting slightly different things.

There are so many comics on Ebay that are barely worth cover price that sell for much, much more once they are in the slab. So some folks are clearly just going for the CGC grade. There's one dude I've noticed that bids on just about anything that's 9.8, no matter what the comic is.

If it works for them, fine.

Thanks for the nice compliment. I appreciate it.

I guess it's just a matter of whether ebay prices affect the market. Obviously, Overstreet could care less what happens on ebay, but ebay prices could affect how dealers price and collectors pay, which would, in turn, affect Overstreet. Naturally, the trend has to be pretty big to have that kind of impact, but with so few perfect 10s, it wouldn't really have to be that many to set a precedent.

Incidentally, your avatar is making me hungry...

greg · Post by **greg** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:06 am

shaxper wrote:...that's where my concern for these "Perfect 10" collectors comes in. They're collecting these conditions; not paying for confidence.

Actually, CGC 10 buyers are really just using the old "playground mentality".

My daddy has a Lexus.
Yeah, well my daddy has a Lamborghini!

My Wolverine:Origin is a 9.9.
Yeah, well my Wolverine is a 10... CGC said so!

Some of us really never grow out of it... and some of us do.

Either way, it's not necessary for all collectors to agree.
Collecting would be quite boring that way.

shaxper · Post by **shaxper** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:09 am

greg wrote:
shaxper wrote:...that's where my concern for these "Perfect 10" collectors comes in. They're collecting these conditions; not paying for confidence.
Actually, CGC 10 buyers are really just using the old "playground mentality".

Essentially, it's the same thing. No, as collectors we don't all need to agree. But this appears to be a growing trend, and I'd hate to see it take attention away from the aspects of comics that (I feel) should be considered collectible.

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