Origin of Harada - discussion

greg · Post by **greg** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Discussion of the "Origin of Harada" storyline from Harbinger: The Beginning...

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:32 pm

Too short.

greg · Post by **greg** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:36 pm

X-O HoboJoe wrote:Too short.

Not enough blood.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:15 pm

greg wrote:
X-O HoboJoe wrote:Too short.
Not enough blood.

I got distracted by some damn nice art while reading it too.

acc205 · Post by **acc205** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:50 pm

Was it just me or was the page where Rowen popped harada very David Lapham from Rai #0??

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:03 pm

acc205 wrote:Was it just me or was the page where Rowen popped harada very David Lapham from Rai #0??

oooooooooooooh

The Harbinger · Post by **The Harbinger** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:05 pm

acc205 wrote:Was it just me or was the page where Rowen popped harada very David Lapham from Rai #0??

I actually thought the same thing

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:20 am

X-O HoboJoe wrote:Too short.

I agree and feel it's intended. It felt like a teaser. It gave more questions than answers.

Most of all it was a story that makes one much more curious about Harada as a person than before.

Shooter has said something to the effect that he approaches existing characters by reading up on them and trying to find unanswered questions about them and then he goes from there. This was a story that highlighted unanswered stories in the original Harbinger series and leaves us wanting more.

/Magnus

myron · Post by **myron** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:27 am

magnusr wrote:
X-O HoboJoe wrote:Too short.
I agree and feel it's intended. It felt like a teaser. It gave more questions than answers.

Most of all it was a story that makes one much more curious about Harada as a person than before.

Shooter has said something to the effect that he approaches existing characters by reading up on them and trying to find unanswered questions about them and then he goes from there. This was a story that highlighted unanswered stories in the original Harbinger series and leaves us wanting more.

/Magnus

good way to start a comic book company...

Blood of Heroes · Post by **Blood of Heroes** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:23 pm

I thought the story was excellent, but now I am confused about what an Omega Harbinger is and who is actually one.

I was under the impression that if one had harbinger powers, they came about after a traumatic event(Bloodshot's Rising Spirit experience, Archer's parents trying to kill him) or were brought out by an Omega Harbinger rooting through your head. Harada said of Sting:"Previously, the others abilities have remained dormant until I drew them forth, yet Peter's manifest themselves independently. He displays multiple phenomena."

We were led to believe that Toyo Harada and Pete Stanchek were the same. Both were Omega Harbingers. So why in this new story do we meet a character named Madame Rowena, who unlocked the young Toyo's powers. "I don't know how, but my messing around in his mind opened up his power!"

When we meet Zepplin, she describes dreams of flying and waking up floating above her bed. Archer has uncanny aim as a child. Their powers were trying to come out but couldn't. Madame Rowena says of Harada:"Right away there were occasional flashes of strangeness--things floating in the air above his crib. Silent screaming inside his parents minds when he wanted something..."

My question is, If Harada is an Omega Harbinger, why did it take someone in his head to 'open up his power'? Pete had it all along. He was controlling things/people before he met Harada.

muzzsucker · Post by **muzzsucker** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:44 pm

maybe like harada someone popped pete? maybe we just haven't seen that story yet. And how popped rowena...

could be that rowena just thinks she popped harada. she might not be a harbinger at all

Blood of Heroes · Post by **Blood of Heroes** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:13 pm

muzzsucker wrote:maybe we just haven't seen that story yet.

Why would they write a new story YEARS later that contradicts what we hold as gospel truth. Do they intend on clearing things up in another installment? Is it wise to confuse and *SQUEE* off die hard Valiant fans?

muzzsucker · Post by **muzzsucker** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:31 pm

Blood of Heroes wrote:
muzzsucker wrote:maybe we just haven't seen that story yet.
Why would they write a new story YEARS later that contradicts what we hold as gospel truth. Do they intend on clearing things up in another installment? Is it wise to confuse and *SQUEE* off die hard Valiant fans?

good point. only marvel can do that

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:46 pm

I don't think it contradicts it.

The question is, if Harbingers requiere someone to pop them, who popped Toyo and Pete?

The story tells us who popped Harada. We just need another story to tell us who popped Pete.

Another question is, if these two are Omega Harbingers is there Alpha, Beta, Delta, Epsilon, Psi, Chi, or other Harbinger classes?

Maybe Rowena's not an Omega, but maybe her ability can activate an Omega's power.

A lesser Harbinger doesn't need to be an Omega to activate an Omega.

It could be that the foundation has teachers whose sole power is to activate other Harbingers.

It's not like Harada meets each and everyone of his students in person, is it?

He'd never have time to take over the world and start a 900 year old war if he wasted it meeting and greeting kids all day.

A mark of any good leader is the ability to delegate.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:23 pm

I got the impression that Harada had "popped" Pete's mind in Harbinger #0.

Pete's first visit to the Harbinger Foundation had him levitating tables,
and the next page, you have Harada working with him and he's levitating a car.

I guess I just assumed that the way he was able to increase power so quickly
was that Harada had been inside his head.

myron · Post by **myron** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:25 pm

well...omega is the end...who's the alpha???

...isn't that the real question?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:28 pm

myron wrote:well...omega is the end...who's the alpha??? ...isn't that the real question?

It was proposed in another thread that Gilad is the Alpha Harbinger, the progenitor of the Harbinger race... which when you think about it makes perfect sense.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:29 pm

myron wrote:well...omega is the end...who's the alpha??? ...isn't that the real question?

I always pictured "alpha" as extremely weak.

Something like "alpha waves" which are radiation that can be stopped by a sheet of paper.
"beta waves" are a bit stronger, and "gamma waves" stronger than that.

The ultimate strength would be "omega", if you're using the Greek alphabet
to show the levels of power.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:31 pm

greg wrote:I got the impression that Harada had "popped" Pete's mind in Harbinger #0.

Read it again

"Previously the others abilities have remained dormant until I drew them forth, yet Peter's manifested themselves independently. He displays multiple phenomena."

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:34 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
greg wrote:I got the impression that Harada had "popped" Pete's mind in Harbinger #0.
Read it again

"Previously the others abilities have remained dormant until I drew them forth, yet Peter's manifested themselves independently. He displays multiple phenomena."

Right... but I only took that to mean that Pete could already control
what others could only do after they were "drawn out".

So, something like ...

Regular people are level 0.
Harbingers (without any outside help) are normally level 1.
Harbingers (with Harada's help) become level 2.
Pete (without any outside help) was already level 2 with multiple phenomena.
Pete (with Harada's help) became a level 3 (highest level) with multiple phenomena.

It still took Harada's help to make him "more" than the old Pete.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:35 pm

greg wrote:
myron wrote:well...omega is the end...who's the alpha??? ...isn't that the real question?
I always pictured "alpha" as extremely weak.

Something like "alpha waves" which are radiation that can be stopped by a sheet of paper.
"beta waves" are a bit stronger, and "gamma waves" stronger than that.

The ultimate strength would be "omega", if you're using the Greek alphabet
to show the levels of power.

Ah, but this VALIANT, where Alpha & Omega have a special meaning.

Alpha is the beginning, Omega is the end.

If Harada and the Stanchek lineage are the end (one almost destroyed the world until the other stopped him), then who's the beginning?

Harbingers must have come from somewhere.

I think Harbingers are like the Earth's anti-bodies, created to protect her from beings like Solar, Erica, Spider-Aliens, and others.

Take Harbingers out of the equation, and the Earth becomes open to attack by beings like Spider-Aliens (as seen in Invasion) and energy beings like Erica, or necromancers like Darque.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:36 pm

greg wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
greg wrote:I got the impression that Harada had "popped" Pete's mind in Harbinger #0.
Read it again

"Previously the others abilities have remained dormant until I drew them forth, yet Peter's manifested themselves independently. He displays multiple phenomena."
Right... but I only took that to mean that Pete could already control
what others could only do after they were "drawn out".

So, something like ...

Regular people are level 0.
Harbingers (without any outside help) are normally level 1.
Harbingers (with Harada's help) become level 2.
Pete (without any outside help) was already level 2 with multiple phenomena.
Pete (with Harada's help) became a level 3 (highest level) with multiple phenomena.

It still took Harada's help to make him "more" than the old Pete.

But withoutside help regulars (level 0) can't become level 1.

Look at Faith, Flamingo, and Torque.

They didn't display any actual powers until Pete popped them. Until that moment they only felt different and had dreams about being different.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:40 pm

If "Alpha" is the beginning... I'd say it's Solar.

The thing about Solar, though, is that in the Valiant universe,
he's both Alpha & Omega.

The other arguments for Aram and Gilad being "alpha" would make sense as well,
though you would need to get into the whole genetics area that would
require quite a bit of explanation about why thousands of years of
DNA (being passed through the lineage) would remain dormant
until the 20th century... unless you want to take the great leaders
and military heroes from the past and give them "Harbinger" labels.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:42 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
greg wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
greg wrote:I got the impression that Harada had "popped" Pete's mind in Harbinger #0.
Read it again

"Previously the others abilities have remained dormant until I drew them forth, yet Peter's manifested themselves independently. He displays multiple phenomena."
Right... but I only took that to mean that Pete could already control
what others could only do after they were "drawn out".

So, something like ...

Regular people are level 0.
Harbingers (without any outside help) are normally level 1.
Harbingers (with Harada's help) become level 2.
Pete (without any outside help) was already level 2 with multiple phenomena.
Pete (with Harada's help) became a level 3 (highest level) with multiple phenomena.

It still took Harada's help to make him "more" than the old Pete.
But withoutside help regulars (level 0) can't become level 1.

Look at Faith, Flamingo, and Torque.

They didn't display any actual powers until Pete popped them. Until that moment they only felt different and had dreams about being different.

I don't agree.

Faith believed she was a couple inches above the bed while dreaming... she probably was.

We don't know about Flamingo's power, but she felt strongly enough to visit Harbinger Foundation.

Torque was stronger than "normal" (but not as strong as he would become).

I'd say they were level 1s. With Pete's help, they became level 2.
(The levels don't mean anything, I'm just trying to say "none", "some", "more", and "all".)

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:42 pm

greg wrote:If "Alpha" is the beginning... I'd say it's Solar.

The thing about Solar, though, is that in the Valiant universe,
he's both Alpha & Omega.

The other arguments for Aram and Gilad being "alpha" would make sense as well,
though you would need to get into the whole genetics area that would
require quite a bit of explanation about why thousands of years of
DNA (being passed through the lineage) would remain dormant
until the 20th century... unless you want to take the great leaders
and military heroes from the past and give them "Harbinger" labels.

If you think as the Harbinger DNA as water and time as the damn, you could say that the damn broke in the 20th Century and let all that Harbinger DNA out into two individuals, Toyo and Peter.

I'd definitely say that Harbingers have existed throughout history and predate both Harada and Stanchek.

Just look at Rowena.