Valiant CGC 9.0-10.0 Definition of Conditions

[Stinger]

I need to know what is the definition of "near mint minus" to "mint" conditions for Valiant comics. I'd say only Valiant comics because the material on comics are in higher quality than Marvels and others back in the days.

What is 9.0 (VF/NM) look like? I need a good scan example of the comic condition that meets 9.0.

When I read "Mint" and "Near Mint/Mint" for 9.9 to 10.0, I'm kind of suprising because ALL of my collection are like that. I'm the type of people who is very picky to find the best condition out of the shelf from the store and handle comics very well.

That is just me back in 15 years ago, so I don't know the definition of "mint" for right now.

[IMJ]

If this is for CGC purposes, we've all had this discussion in the past and concluded that to nail it down you'd have to crack open several books from the case and scope them out. This of course, while conforming to things like the Overstreet standards and being as falsifiable as you can about the book.

Coincidentally, I was thinking about this the other day and had an epiphany regarding the CGC system. It would seem that the best plausible way to grade an entire comic is to examine each page seperately (including the covers), rate each individually on a scale of 1-10 and then compiles the average for the book for the holistic score. That's what I've done myself in justifying their pattern, and it also fits the most logical way of compiling a true grade for the book. I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this as a possibility but it seems the best way to aggregate a sample from a single source and I've never seen it posted before.

If anyone tries it and it works on their next prescreen though, then you have to forever refer to the system as "The Ironman John System of Grading"

[Second_Death]

IMJ has spoken the truth. The ONLY way to know for sure is to crack open some slabs and examine them yourself. You just have to be ok with the cost of the education.

[vkid]

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of when I was a kid and would read all of my valiants with a Kleenex

I wanted to keep them in "mint" condition, but I so desperately wanted to read them . . . what a dilemma!

[greg]

Since you asked specifically for Valiant, here's my take...

Valiant books, particularly pre-Unity Valiant books were mostly 9.6s when they were new.
Of course, that means that there were 9.8s on the shelf, and there were 9.4s on the shelf.
Books don't start out as 9.9s and 10s... they aren't constructed perfectly,
they aren't handled perfectly by factory workers, they aren't shipped perfectly safe,
they don't always get placed on the shelf perfectly, and then somehow
the book made the trip to your house... and any or all of those things
add up to an average book, and that's about a 9.6 on the first day.

I don't include 9.9 or 10 in the discussion at all because those are "freaks of nature"
and trying to find one in a box of ungraded issues is likely to give you an ulcer.
(But, if you're going to try anyway, pick a chromium cover.)

The full chromium covers like X-O Manowar #0 and Bloodshot #0 were probably
mostly 9.8s when they were on the shelf new, with a few 9.6s.
Those covers generally "held up better" than thin paper.

Ok, so Valiant books were in the 9.4 to 9.8 range (for the most part) on the day they went on sale,
what has happened since then?

Some books were "lucky" enough to be printed with cardstock covers...
in particular, X-O Manowar #1 and Harbinger #0 Pink. These two books
tend to have high rates of CGC 9.8 in the census, and it's due in part
to the cardstock covers being thicker, shinier, etc., than regular paper.
It's also due in part to the fact that both books have been "prized" by
many owners since they were brand new... "prized" = "protected".

I would say that both books probably average in the 9.4 to 9.6 range today,
with a few 9.8 candidates being pretty easy to spot and the first choices when it's time for grading.

Solar #10 also has a cardstock cover, but it is solid black, shows damage (and fingerprints) easily,
and because it's twice as thick as most comics, it tends to get "worn"
even if it's not mishandled. Check the top and bottom of the spine
for that "white fuzz" from the inside cover... it could just be a poor cut at the factory
back in 1992, but it looks like "wear", so it usually gets treated like wear.
A really nice copy of Solar #10 is probably 9.4 to 9.6... the average copy is 9.4 or lower.

On the opposite end of "pre-Unity" books, Harbinger #1 was printed with a "flimsy" cover
that tends to crack at the crease, flake, and generally "downgrade" itself
from the type of condition the book should otherwise enjoy.
The average Harbinger #1 "out there" is probably lower than 9.2...
even if it was generally well-protected through the past 15 years.
(Some ungraded copies look fantastic, but if they were actually CGC graded, they'd be about 8.0.)

We can assume that people are only sending "best copies" to CGC...
and of the 266 copies that CGC has graded for Harbinger #1, the average grade is 9.27.
If the "best copies" that people would care enough to send to CGC and pay to slab
are 9.27, it's safe to assume the "average copy" is well below 9.27.

Other books are generally "between the extremes" of these examples...
but it's important to really, really scrutinize a book if you're thinking of sending it to CGC.

Why? Because you'll waste money if you don't.

For the most part, Valiant books in CGC 9.4 condition aren't selling for more
than the price of the book plus the price of the CGC grading (and shipping).

So, you could sell a book for $5 ungraded, and make $5...
or you could send it to CGC, pay about $12 for grading (with a discount), plus about $3 each direction in shipping,
that is, put $18 worth of "CGCing" into the $5 book... then sell it for about $20.
When you subtract out the $18 in costs, you're left with $2 for your $5 book.

These "wasted costs" can also affect CGC 9.6 books, such as post-Unity issues,
or even some pre-Unity issues that are commonly bought and sold.
If you pay to CGC, but then don't get those costs back when you sell,
you've "invested" in a service that either breaks even or loses money.

With the majority of Valiant books (particularly pre-Unity issues) in "average condition",
and with "average condition" being around 9.4 even for well-protected books...
CGC simply doesn't make a lot of sense for the majority of Valiant books.

If someone else takes the risks and gets CGC 9.8s...
I say "buy at whatever price you believe is fair..."
but if you're the one taking the risk of sending your books to CGC,
be ready for disappointment and the possibility that the CGC fees
eat up your "profits" at the time you decide to sell.

Grab a magnifying glass... and pretend you're trying to buy the book from a seller
who will only lower his price if you can find something wrong with the book.
It's funny how some defects "jump out at you" when you pretend to be "buying carefully"
rather than already being the proud owner of the same book.

[Dr. Solar]

Don't forget to CHECK THE BACK OF THE BOOK too.

I have books that look like a 9.8 from the front, and a 9.2 from the back. That makes it a 9.2.

Open up the pages too. I was going through some of my early Magnus issues, and noticed that some of them had pages with a crease through them. It seemed like damage from the printing, but damage is damage.

I would suggest the Overstreet Grading Guide, but I don't, because I think it is mediocre as a grading guide. Unfortunately, it still seems to be the best resource out there.

[Escaflown4]

Since you asked specifically for Valiant, here's my take...

Valiant books, particularly pre-Unity Valiant books were mostly 9.6s when they were new.
Of course, that means that there were 9.8s on the shelf, and there were 9.4s on the shelf.
Books don't start out as 9.9s and 10s... they aren't constructed perfectly,
they aren't handled perfectly by factory workers, they aren't shipped perfectly safe,
they don't always get placed on the shelf perfectly, and then somehow
the book made the trip to your house... and any or all of those things
add up to an average book, and that's about a 9.6 on the first day.

I don't include 9.9 or 10 in the discussion at all because those are "freaks of nature"
and trying to find one in a box of ungraded issues is likely to give you an ulcer.
(But, if you're going to try anyway, pick a chromium cover.)

The full chromium covers like X-O Manowar #0 and Bloodshot #0 were probably
mostly 9.8s when they were on the shelf new, with a few 9.6s.
Those covers generally "held up better" than thin paper.

Ok, so Valiant books were in the 9.4 to 9.8 range (for the most part) on the day they went on sale,
what has happened since then?

Some books were "lucky" enough to be printed with cardstock covers...
in particular, X-O Manowar #1 and Harbinger #0 Pink. These two books
tend to have high rates of CGC 9.8 in the census, and it's due in part
to the cardstock covers being thicker, shinier, etc., than regular paper.
It's also due in part to the fact that both books have been "prized" by
many owners since they were brand new... "prized" = "protected".

I would say that both books probably average in the 9.4 to 9.6 range today,
with a few 9.8 candidates being pretty easy to spot and the first choices when it's time for grading.

Solar #10 also has a cardstock cover, but it is solid black, shows damage (and fingerprints) easily,
and because it's twice as thick as most comics, it tends to get "worn"
even if it's not mishandled. Check the top and bottom of the spine
for that "white fuzz" from the inside cover... it could just be a poor cut at the factory
back in 1992, but it looks like "wear", so it usually gets treated like wear.
A really nice copy of Solar #10 is probably 9.4 to 9.6... the average copy is 9.4 or lower.

On the opposite end of "pre-Unity" books, Harbinger #1 was printed with a "flimsy" cover
that tends to crack at the crease, flake, and generally "downgrade" itself
from the type of condition the book should otherwise enjoy.
The average Harbinger #1 "out there" is probably lower than 9.2...
even if it was generally well-protected through the past 15 years.
(Some ungraded copies look fantastic, but if they were actually CGC graded, they'd be about 8.0.)

We can assume that people are only sending "best copies" to CGC...
and of the 266 copies that CGC has graded for Harbinger #1, the average grade is 9.27.
If the "best copies" that people would care enough to send to CGC and pay to slab
are 9.27, it's safe to assume the "average copy" is well below 9.27.

Other books are generally "between the extremes" of these examples...
but it's important to really, really scrutinize a book if you're thinking of sending it to CGC.

Why? Because you'll waste money if you don't.

For the most part, Valiant books in CGC 9.4 condition aren't selling for more
than the price of the book plus the price of the CGC grading (and shipping).

So, you could sell a book for $5 ungraded, and make $5...
or you could send it to CGC, pay about $12 for grading (with a discount), plus about $3 each direction in shipping,
that is, put $18 worth of "CGCing" into the $5 book... then sell it for about $20.
When you subtract out the $18 in costs, you're left with $2 for your $5 book.

These "wasted costs" can also affect CGC 9.6 books, such as post-Unity issues,
or even some pre-Unity issues that are commonly bought and sold.
If you pay to CGC, but then don't get those costs back when you sell,
you've "invested" in a service that either breaks even or loses money.

With the majority of Valiant books (particularly pre-Unity issues) in "average condition",
and with "average condition" being around 9.4 even for well-protected books...
CGC simply doesn't make a lot of sense for the majority of Valiant books.

If someone else takes the risks and gets CGC 9.8s...
I say "buy at whatever price you believe is fair..."
but if you're the one taking the risk of sending your books to CGC,
be ready for disappointment and the possibility that the CGC fees
eat up your "profits" at the time you decide to sell.

Grab a magnifying glass... and pretend you're trying to buy the book from a seller
who will only lower his price if you can find something wrong with the book.
It's funny how some defects "jump out at you" when you pretend to be "buying carefully"
rather than already being the proud owner of the same book.

I don't remember X-O Manowar #1 having a cardstock cover....

[greg]

Since you asked specifically for Valiant, here's my take...

Valiant books, particularly pre-Unity Valiant books were mostly 9.6s when they were new.
Of course, that means that there were 9.8s on the shelf, and there were 9.4s on the shelf.
Books don't start out as 9.9s and 10s... they aren't constructed perfectly,
they aren't handled perfectly by factory workers, they aren't shipped perfectly safe,
they don't always get placed on the shelf perfectly, and then somehow
the book made the trip to your house... and any or all of those things
add up to an average book, and that's about a 9.6 on the first day.

I don't include 9.9 or 10 in the discussion at all because those are "freaks of nature"
and trying to find one in a box of ungraded issues is likely to give you an ulcer.
(But, if you're going to try anyway, pick a chromium cover.)

The full chromium covers like X-O Manowar #0 and Bloodshot #0 were probably
mostly 9.8s when they were on the shelf new, with a few 9.6s.
Those covers generally "held up better" than thin paper.

Ok, so Valiant books were in the 9.4 to 9.8 range (for the most part) on the day they went on sale,
what has happened since then?

Some books were "lucky" enough to be printed with cardstock covers...
in particular, X-O Manowar #1 and Harbinger #0 Pink. These two books
tend to have high rates of CGC 9.8 in the census, and it's due in part
to the cardstock covers being thicker, shinier, etc., than regular paper.
It's also due in part to the fact that both books have been "prized" by
many owners since they were brand new... "prized" = "protected".

I would say that both books probably average in the 9.4 to 9.6 range today,
with a few 9.8 candidates being pretty easy to spot and the first choices when it's time for grading.

Solar #10 also has a cardstock cover, but it is solid black, shows damage (and fingerprints) easily,
and because it's twice as thick as most comics, it tends to get "worn"
even if it's not mishandled. Check the top and bottom of the spine
for that "white fuzz" from the inside cover... it could just be a poor cut at the factory
back in 1992, but it looks like "wear", so it usually gets treated like wear.
A really nice copy of Solar #10 is probably 9.4 to 9.6... the average copy is 9.4 or lower.

On the opposite end of "pre-Unity" books, Harbinger #1 was printed with a "flimsy" cover
that tends to crack at the crease, flake, and generally "downgrade" itself
from the type of condition the book should otherwise enjoy.
The average Harbinger #1 "out there" is probably lower than 9.2...
even if it was generally well-protected through the past 15 years.
(Some ungraded copies look fantastic, but if they were actually CGC graded, they'd be about 8.0.)

We can assume that people are only sending "best copies" to CGC...
and of the 266 copies that CGC has graded for Harbinger #1, the average grade is 9.27.
If the "best copies" that people would care enough to send to CGC and pay to slab
are 9.27, it's safe to assume the "average copy" is well below 9.27.

Other books are generally "between the extremes" of these examples...
but it's important to really, really scrutinize a book if you're thinking of sending it to CGC.

Why? Because you'll waste money if you don't.

For the most part, Valiant books in CGC 9.4 condition aren't selling for more
than the price of the book plus the price of the CGC grading (and shipping).

So, you could sell a book for $5 ungraded, and make $5...
or you could send it to CGC, pay about $12 for grading (with a discount), plus about $3 each direction in shipping,
that is, put $18 worth of "CGCing" into the $5 book... then sell it for about $20.
When you subtract out the $18 in costs, you're left with $2 for your $5 book.

These "wasted costs" can also affect CGC 9.6 books, such as post-Unity issues,
or even some pre-Unity issues that are commonly bought and sold.
If you pay to CGC, but then don't get those costs back when you sell,
you've "invested" in a service that either breaks even or loses money.

With the majority of Valiant books (particularly pre-Unity issues) in "average condition",
and with "average condition" being around 9.4 even for well-protected books...
CGC simply doesn't make a lot of sense for the majority of Valiant books.

If someone else takes the risks and gets CGC 9.8s...
I say "buy at whatever price you believe is fair..."
but if you're the one taking the risk of sending your books to CGC,
be ready for disappointment and the possibility that the CGC fees
eat up your "profits" at the time you decide to sell.

Grab a magnifying glass... and pretend you're trying to buy the book from a seller
who will only lower his price if you can find something wrong with the book.
It's funny how some defects "jump out at you" when you pretend to be "buying carefully"
rather than already being the proud owner of the same book.

I don't remember X-O Manowar #1 having a cardstock cover....

I don't know why I pictured that book with a cardstock cover...
Oh well...

[IMJ]

I can also tell you guys a very important rule regarding everything that we (most individuals) do (whether you are aware of it or not) that could affect your grading decisions:
People tend to overestimate their performance on nearly every physical and recall task that we perform. This seems to be a widely executed phenomena. It's been replicated in labs.

Therefore, a psychologist would probably say to take this knowlege and do two things with it when grading a book:
Automatically cut your estimated grade down. If there's a single instance of "hmmm... well there is that" then drop the grade from your estimate
Try to falsify the book. Look for reasons that it's not a 10.0. Don't look for reasons that it is.