New VALIANT Ancillary Product

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:40 pm

ianalexavier wrote:Im tired so Im not thinking correctly.. plus IM watching the Tigers game..

LOL i dont consider VH2 or 3.. or whatever cannon so Im talking about the first go around with these characters with VALIANT..

Wasnt RAI 0 the big one that set up continuity.. I guess it all depends on how it all restarted.. Im all for figuring out a way to start from directly after Unity..

Starting after Unity doesn't work as much of those comics were involved in the middle of stories set in 1992, like Eternal Warrior and Shadowman for example.

VH 2, 3, 4, and all that crap isn't cannon far as I'm concerned either. Per Greg's suggestion they can be nothing more than comics published within the VALIANT universe based on its real world heroes.

What is VH 2 Faith if nothing more than a penciller's wet dream idea of what a girl should look like?

As for the X-O Manowar/Iron Man crossover, just think of Stand By Me;

"You think Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?"--Vern
"What are you? Cracked?!"--Teddy
"I don't know. I once saw Mighty Mouse hold up five elephants with his one hand."--Vern
"Boy, you don't know nothing. Mighty Mouse is a cartoon. Superman is a real guy. There's no way a cartoon could beat up a real guy."--Teddy
"Yeah. But it'd be a good fight, though."--Vern

X-O Manowar = Superman, Iron Man = Mighty Mouse

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:44 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Elveen wrote:I don't think so....

(see this is a problem... some more bad guys are needed..... IMO)
More reason to have the new comics pick up 10 years later,

or..... just pick up after Unity...... bring back Shooter... let him do what he orginally wanted to.....

unfortunately that will probably never happen......

but you gotta believe......

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:22 pm

Elveen wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Elveen wrote:I don't think so....

(see this is a problem... some more bad guys are needed..... IMO)
More reason to have the new comics pick up 10 years later,

or..... just pick up after Unity...... bring back Shooter... let him do what he orginally wanted to.....

unfortunately that will probably never happen......

but you gotta believe......

While I believe that Shooter going back is within the realm of possibility, I'm not so convinced about picking up after Unity, not without a massive rewrite of every single Pre Unity issues so that the stories take place in 2006 instead of 1992.

I just don't think that picking up Eternal Warrior with Gilad appearing in time to save Jillian from being killed works as well 14 years after the fact.

If they drop the real time aspect, then it's not VALIANT anymore.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:32 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Elveen wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Elveen wrote:I don't think so....

(see this is a problem... some more bad guys are needed..... IMO)
More reason to have the new comics pick up 10 years later,

or..... just pick up after Unity...... bring back Shooter... let him do what he orginally wanted to.....

unfortunately that will probably never happen......

but you gotta believe......
While I believe that Shooter going back is within the realm of possibility, I'm not so convinced about picking up after Unity, not without a massive rewrite of every single Pre Unity issues so that the stories take place in 2006 instead of 1992.

I just don't think that picking up Eternal Warrior with Gilad appearing in time to save Jillian from being killed works as well 14 years after the fact.

If they drop the real time aspect, then it's not VALIANT anymore.

ok... how about if Solar returns everybody to 2006 (instead of 1992)..... the only thing that would need to be "addressed" is Jack's death in 1999.... and Shooter can fix that... no problem....

just an idea.....

(now I am not saying that getting rid of everything after Unity is the best way to go.... but.... under these circumstances.... it is an appealing possibility.....)

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:38 pm

Elveen wrote:ok... how about if Solar returns everybody to 2006 (instead of 1992)..... the only thing that would need to be "addressed" is Jack's death in 1999.... and Shooter can fix that... no problem....

just an idea.....

(now I am not saying that getting rid of everything after Unity is the best way to go.... but.... under these circumstances.... it is an appealing possibility.....)

Not really.

Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Eternal Warrior, Magnus, and Rai (that's five out of eight titles) were all in the middle of a story when the characters were taken to the Lost Land.

In Unity Aram's worried about getting burned, so he makes up a shield to defend himself... should that be ignored because instead of returning to 92 he's appearing in 2006?

Jack was swimming away with Elya expecting to come out from under a tree in 92 with the knowledge that he's supposed to die in 99. Should he appear in 06 and disregard what Elya said as a delusion?

Eternal Warrior vanished while he and Jillian were being gunned down by a couple of assailants. Should he reappear in the hotel (if it still exists today) worried about her only to discover that it's 14 years later and he failed to save her?

Being future books Magnus and Rai could pick up from where they were, I'll grant you that, but how would new readers be able to grasp these stories?

Picking up after Unity isn't feasible, it's not something that will make VALIANT appeal to new readers, it'll only serve to appeal to Jim Shooter fans.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:59 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Elveen wrote:ok... how about if Solar returns everybody to 2006 (instead of 1992)..... the only thing that would need to be "addressed" is Jack's death in 1999.... and Shooter can fix that... no problem....

just an idea.....

(now I am not saying that getting rid of everything after Unity is the best way to go.... but.... under these circumstances.... it is an appealing possibility.....)
Not really.

Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Eternal Warrior, Magnus, and Rai (that's five out of eight titles) were all in the middle of a story when the characters were taken to the Lost Land.

In Unity Aram's worried about getting burned, so he makes up a shield to defend himself... should that be ignored because instead of returning to 92 he's appearing in 2006?

Jack was swimming away with Elya expecting to come out from under a tree in 92 with the knowledge that he's supposed to die in 99. Should he appear in 06 and disregard what Elya said as a delusion?

Eternal Warrior vanished while he and Jillian were being gunned down by a couple of assailants. Should he reappear in the hotel (if it still exists today) worried about her only to discover that it's 14 years later and he failed to save her?

Being future books Magnus and Rai could pick up from where they were, I'll grant you that, but how would new readers be able to grasp these stories?

Picking up after Unity isn't feasible, it's not something that will make VALIANT appeal to new readers, it'll only serve to appeal to Jim Shooter fans.

wow.... ok....

first when you say "not really".... umm...

if it''s "my" idea.... then technically... it IS an idea.... and if it is appealing to me.... then it is appealing to me.... it might not be appealing to you.... and I can respect that....

and I am not even saying that it's what I would do..... but that it is appealing.... Shooter w/ VALIANT.... IS appealing to me.... to me...

and for your examples.... the only problem is with Jack.... but I already mentioned that....

if Aram returned to 2006, with his sheild.... he would shrug his shoulders and go find a bar..... (that sounds about right to me)

Jillian is dead.... umm... so what.....

or what about this.... Bloodshot come in and saves the day...... or even some other new hero.....

it is just a possibility.... that is all I am saying....

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:02 am

But it's not a possibility that's backed by facts, and that's what flawed with it.

Of all eras why would they reappear in 2006?

Aram wanted to go to Miami yet he ended up reappearing in LA in 1992.

The only one of the bunch who managed to change his destination was Aric, who was sent to 410 A.D., a specific period he wished to be sent to.

In order for every single one of the VALIANT heroes to reappear in 2006 they would all have to want to do that, and there's no reason they would.

Gilad, for example, wants to go save Jillian, who's in 1992 being gunned down.

Shooter going back to VALIANT would be great, but if you're suggesting that both Shooter being at VALIANT and VALIANT restarting after Unity is the only way it can happen I don't agree.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:28 am

ManofTheAtom wrote:But it's not a possibility that's backed by facts, and that's what flawed with it.

Of all eras why would they reappear in 2006?

Aram wanted to go to Miami yet he ended up reappearing in LA in 1992.

The only one of the bunch who managed to change his destination was Aric, who was sent to 410 A.D., a specific period he wished to be sent to.

In order for every single one of the VALIANT heroes to reappear in 2006 they would all have to want to do that, and there's no reason they would.

Gilad, for example, wants to go save Jillian, who's in 1992 being gunned down.

Shooter going back to VALIANT would be great, but if you're suggesting that both Shooter being at VALIANT and VALIANT restarting after Unity is the only way it can happen I don't agree.

cool..... I can respect that.....

Rufusharley · Post by **Rufusharley** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:11 am

" They bought their tickets...they know what they were getting into...I say, let 'em crash."

sorry, had to get an 'Airplane' quote in there...

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:22 am

What about using Timewalker to help some of the characters come up to speed. So really Gilad did save Jillian but he has to go back in time to do it.. see, Jillian is still alive because he saved her but he actually didnt do it yet becasue he just got to 2006 from Unity.. then Ivar shows up and says, "Hey lets go.. Ill bring you back after you take care of this."

or whatever.. of course this would be difficult to follow for new readers.. gives me a headache just thinking about it.

We are just trying to have our cake and eat it too.. its going ot be difficult.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:08 am

Elveen wrote:wow.... ok....

first when you say "not really".... umm...

if it''s "my" idea.... then technically... it IS an idea.... and if it is appealing to me.... then it is appealing to me.... it might not be appealing to you.... and I can respect that....

and I am not even saying that it's what I would do..... but that it is appealing.... Shooter w/ VALIANT.... IS appealing to me.... to me...

Well, then you obviously want DC Lite and a teleporting goat that is on a first name basis with the Legion Of Super Heroes and heroes that hold hands when they go to the bathroom. You said so yourself.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:53 am

ianalexavier wrote:What about using Timewalker to help some of the characters come up to speed. So really Gilad did save Jillian but he has to go back in time to do it.. see, Jillian is still alive because he saved her but he actually didnt do it yet becasue he just got to 2006 from Unity.. then Ivar shows up and says, "Hey lets go.. Ill bring you back after you take care of this."

or whatever.. of course this would be difficult to follow for new readers.. gives me a headache just thinking about it.

We are just trying to have our cake and eat it too.. its going ot be difficult.

Exactly, and that's the problem. Picking up after Unity only serves those who were there at the beginning.

Also, using Timewalker, a post Shooter/post Unity character to solve things? You might as well use Solar who can move people through space and time.

It be extremely convoluted for new readers, and that doesn't help.

Picking up 10 years after X-O 68 is the best way to do it, it allows VE to do the "next generation" thing and introduce the universe to new readers while at the same time respecting the foundations of the VALIANT Universe;

real time, real world, hard science, outside your window, etc, etc, etc... all the cool stuff that made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

myron · Post by **myron** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:58 am

where is that dead horse emoticon when you need it...

Rufusharley · Post by **Rufusharley** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:32 pm

Rufusharley · Post by **Rufusharley** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:33 pm

Ask and ye shall recieve

myron · Post by **myron** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:09 pm

Rufusharley wrote:

THAT'S IT!!!!

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:56 pm

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:17 pm

I think the best thing they could ever do (so cool that I doubt they'll do it) is to start at the end of Unity 1, but reprint the pre-Unity and Unity stories as flip-books, embracing that continuity.

As for that story taking place in 1992, just have a time travel screw-up in the storyline (it was the Lost Land, after all, and the theme of Unity was "Time Is Not Absolute").

I think pre-Unity and Unity were fantastic, and the best Valiant ever, and I think any really successful relaunch would have to embrace that.

Of course, they'd also have to have the rights to use Magnus, Solar, and Turok again, or at least to reprint the issues, and I guess they don't have that. Without that, they have a tough road ahead.

I guess they could go with X-O Manowar as their flagship, and Harbinger and Shadowman. But I don't think the rest of the Valiant universe works too well without Magnus, Turok, and Solar. Solar was especially the lynchpin to it all.

Boy, if I were one of the writers, and I had to start from scratch without the Western chararacters, that'd be a challenge. I think the easiest thing would be to get the rights back to the Western characters and embrace pre-Unity and Unity as continuity, with reprints for the new fans. The rest could be rewritten (although maybe embracing BWS's Archer and Armstrong and Layton's X-O Manowar stories would be a good idea, too).

So, bottom line, if they got the rights to the Western characters back, I think you could reprint the pre-Unity and Unity as flip books, tell a new time-travel story that gets the heroes to our time (with the exception of Shadowman and X-O), and make it work.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:21 pm

Even with reprints it doesn't work, not unless the reprints change the dates in the comics to 2006/7.

Selective continuity... urgh

The current situation parallels VALIANT'S Magnus #1.

A property that had been dormant since 1982 (10 years earlier) was dusted off and revived without a reboot, without a retcon, and without any changes to the old stories.

Why can't it be done again?

acc205 · Post by **acc205** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:08 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:I think the best thing they could ever do (so cool that I doubt they'll do it) is to start at the end of Unity 1, but reprint the pre-Unity and Unity stories as flip-books, embracing that continuity.

As for that story taking place in 1992, just have a time travel screw-up in the storyline (it was the Lost Land, after all, and the theme of Unity was "Time Is Not Absolute").

I think pre-Unity and Unity were fantastic, and the best VALIANT ever, and I think any really successful relaunch would have to embrace that.

Of course, they'd also have to have the rights to use Magnus, Solar, and Turok again, or at least to reprint the issues, and I guess they don't have that. Without that, they have a tough road ahead.

I guess they could go with X-O Manowar as their flagship, and Harbinger and Shadowman. But I don't think the rest of the VALIANT universe works too well without Magnus, Turok, and Solar. Solar was especially the lynchpin to it all.

Boy, if I were one of the writers, and I had to start from scratch without the Western chararacters, that'd be a challenge. I think the easiest thing would be to get the rights back to the Western characters and embrace pre-Unity and Unity as continuity, with reprints for the new fans. The rest could be rewritten (although maybe embracing BWS's Archer and Armstrong and Layton's X-O Manowar stories would be a good idea, too).

So, bottom line, if they got the rights to the Western characters back, I think you could reprint the pre-Unity and Unity as flip books, tell a new time-travel story that gets the heroes to our time (with the exception of Shadowman and X-O), and make it work.

It would be hard enough getting new material to sell forget trying to reprint books that are available already (some in multiple formats). I like the idea but it would be suicide for the new Valiant. Also, starting from Unity is an interesting idea

acc205 · Post by **acc205** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:09 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:Even with reprints it doesn't work, not unless the reprints change the dates in the comics to 2006/7.

Selective continuity... urgh

The current situation parallels VALIANT'S Magnus #1.

A property that had been dormant since 1982 (10 years earlier) was dusted off and revived without a reboot, without a retcon, and without any changes to the old stories.

Why can't it be done again?

for the same reason it couldn't be done with Solar. The science and the stories became too silly.

Rufusharley · Post by **Rufusharley** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:23 am

Daniel Jackson wrote:

That pretty much says it all.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:21 am

acc205 wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:Even with reprints it doesn't work, not unless the reprints change the dates in the comics to 2006/7.

Selective continuity... urgh

The current situation parallels VALIANT'S Magnus #1.

A property that had been dormant since 1982 (10 years earlier) was dusted off and revived without a reboot, without a retcon, and without any changes to the old stories.

Why can't it be done again?
for the same reason it couldn't be done with Solar. The science and the stories became too silly.

Don't dwell on the silly stories, just solve the cliffhanger and move on.

You don't see Spider-Man dwelling on the Spider-buggy or Spider-Boy.

Brother J · Post by **Brother J** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:42 am

myron · Post by **myron** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:28 pm

Brother J wrote:

ValiantFans.com Board - Since 2004

New VALIANT Ancillary Product

.

Re: .