Your ideal VALIANT

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:46 pm

I thought it would be interesting if people could say what they feel epitomises or defines what VALIANT comics are, or what contitutes their ideal VALIANT universe. this could be what has gone before or could be published in the future.

For my money, the next incarnation should feature:

Acceptable pseudo-science (sufficient suspension of disbelief, internal consistency, limited means to charcters becoming 'powered')

Coherent world-view (the reader understands the 'rules' of the universe - no deus ex machina/rabbits out of the hat)

Real-time (a year is a year, no comic time compression)

Purposeful crossovers (no purposeless ones)

No sound effects (or thought ballons)

Plausible characters

Most important - good stories and art.

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:13 pm

leonmallett wrote:For my money, the next incarnation should feature:

Sounds about right.

/Magnus

Zool · Post by **Zool** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:56 pm

Good stories and art is of course a key feature.

It's amazing how many companies consistently get that wrong.

As for your universe ground-rules, I'm totally down with that. I love this description of the Valiant ethos on Wikipedia:

In the beginning, the Valiant Universe was a reflection of Jim Shooter's vision for an ideal comic book universe: character-driven, strong continuity with emphasis on science fiction, long-reaching consequences and internal consistency. It was the first company to attempt to follow a real-world timeline, where events in the comics occurred at the pace similar to their publication schedule. The company writers adhered to real-world science as much as they possibly could. No matter how powerful its characters got, they were still affected by friction, Newton's Laws of Motion, Einstein's laws of relativity, etc. While Valiant Universe had its share of aliens, they never used popular sci-fi conventions such as universal translators and faster-than-light travel. All Valiant Universe superheroes had powers that were derived from psionic awareness (the "power of the mind"), energy manipulation and/or technology. Valiant Comics' writers tried to emphasize the human aspect of super-powers, as well as how the actions of various super-powered individuals affected average human beings. Most Valiant heroes were not superheroes in the strict sense of the word. Some had more in common with the old-style pulp adventurers than traditional superheroes. Finally, Valiant Comics had tight, carefully integrated continuity, where events in one title had indirect effects on other titles. In many cases, major characters debuted in previously established titles before their own titles premiered.

If a relaunched emerged that stuck by these principles, then I'd be quite happy indeed.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:13 pm

I think any new version of Valiant comics needs to be financially solid. If this means developing new versions of storytelling ... web-based, email, digital, trade paperbacks ... I'm all for it. The characters and the universe is solid; the storytelling isn't necessarily dependent on a $2.95 comic every month. IMO.

I'd hate to see the characters show up in traditional comic form for a few months and then disappear again forever. I think this could be avoided if there were a low-cost format ... not being such a slave to newsprint and other printing costs (newspapers, books and magazines are all grappling with these problems).

Whatever that means, anyway. These are problems for Dino and the midgets to sort out.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:48 pm

Just get everything back to the state of Jim Shooter greatness.

RobInOttawa · Post by **RobInOttawa** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:25 pm

If the new valiant universe is going to be 85% artwork and 15% text to drive a very simple plot then I won't be buying them.

If the new valiant universe is as good as the Pre-Unity Jim Shooter/ Bob Layton greatness or even up to and slightly past the chaos effect, then I'll support the company as best as I can.

Hopefully the comics books will not be $4.00 - $5.00 (Canadian) a piece.

hulk181man · Post by **hulk181man** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:59 pm

For my money, the next incarnation should feature:

well-written character driven stories.

dellamorte · Post by **dellamorte** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:32 pm

Don't forget: Dead is dead

The Mighty Drew · Post by **The Mighty Drew** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:42 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:Just get everything back to the state of Jim Shooter greatness.

Big ol' DITTO.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:53 pm

I will not go into this with the thought that 'these books could be as great as they were back in the day'. That ship has sailed. They will never be as good as they were 'back in the day'. There was a 'kind of magic' with them when they first came out. The begining through mid books were just fine for me (some good some bad). The dialogue was 'quirky' (Jim Shooterisms) and that kind of dialogue wont fly in comics today. I will look forward to seeing new stories but for me comparing them to what was is just not an option. I would be setting myself up for failure. I will keep my eyes open and try not to be too judgemental and for the Love of God, I am going to try and ENJOY them. For me, comics are about ENJOYING them and not picking them apart looking for someone's lost youth in those books.

The basic ground rules in the first post in this thread work for me as does the 'dead is dead'. Another thing is to have normal looking people. I don't need a hot babe in every issue or every team member to be buff and cut... it is OK to have chunky people in comics, it is OK to have skinny people in comics. Realism in comics, go figure.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:22 pm

Knightt wrote:I will not go into this with the thought that 'these books could be as great as they were back in the day'. That ship has sailed. They will never be as good as they were 'back in the day'. There was a 'kind of magic' with them when they first came out. The begining through mid books were just fine for me (some good some bad). The dialogue was 'quirky' (Jim Shooterisms) and that kind of dialogue wont fly in comics today. I will look forward to seeing new stories but for me comparing them to what was is just not an option. I would be setting myself up for failure. I will keep my eyes open and try not to be too judgemental and for the Love of God, I am going to try and ENJOY them. For me, comics are about ENJOYING them and not picking them apart looking for someone's lost youth in those books.

The basic ground rules in the first post in this thread work for me as does the 'dead is dead'. Another thing is to have normal looking people. I don't need a hot babe in every issue or every team member to be buff and cut... it is OK to have chunky people in comics, it is OK to have skinny people in comics. Realism in comics, go figure.

I agree with all this...

...especially about normal looking people.

And while I agree that "that ship has sailed"... I think you can create a "new" magic, not the same magic, but new magic,...

And lastly, what I liked about the begining of VALIANT was the feeling I was apart of something, it was happening right in front of me, some thing special...

and I for one... think it is possible to do it again.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:31 pm

Elveen wrote:not the same magic, but new magic,...

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:02 am

depluto wrote:web-based, email, digital, trade paperbacks ... I'm all for it.

Interesting tangent. I'm also all for it. How about newspaper paper, like the Valiant Voices?

/Magnus

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:54 pm

Sorry I forgot 'dead is dead'. Marvel has never managed that and now DC seems as bad.

As for normal people instead of variations on muscular guy/hot babe, in favour of 'real' body types - then I'm all for it. We had Zephyr and Armstrong, and the original HARD Corps were not oil paintings (Superstar aside). Charcters as plausible, believable 'people' - who just happen to have powers.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:56 pm

depluto wrote:I think any new version of VALIANT comics needs to be financially solid. If this means developing new versions of storytelling ... web-based, email, digital, trade paperbacks ... I'm all for it. The characters and the universe is solid; the storytelling isn't necessarily dependent on a $2.95 comic every month. IMO.

I'd hate to see the characters show up in traditional comic form for a few months and then disappear again forever. I think this could be avoided if there were a low-cost format ... not being such a slave to newsprint and other printing costs (newspapers, books and magazines are all grappling with these problems).

Whatever that means, anyway. These are problems for Dino and the midgets to sort out.

Some great ideas, but doesn't the typical reader of comics love to have a comic book or TPB in their hands - you know, the tactile and olfactory experiences as well (I love the smell of new and old comics).

Second_Death · Post by **Second_Death** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:37 am

Knightt wrote:
Elveen wrote:not the same magic, but new magic,...

Well said and thats probably the most we can or should hope for.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:21 am

leonmallett wrote:
depluto wrote:I think any new version of VALIANT comics needs to be financially solid. If this means developing new versions of storytelling ... web-based, email, digital, trade paperbacks ... I'm all for it. The characters and the universe is solid; the storytelling isn't necessarily dependent on a $2.95 comic every month. IMO.

I'd hate to see the characters show up in traditional comic form for a few months and then disappear again forever. I think this could be avoided if there were a low-cost format ... not being such a slave to newsprint and other printing costs (newspapers, books and magazines are all grappling with these problems).

Whatever that means, anyway. These are problems for Dino and the midgets to sort out.
Some great ideas, but doesn't the typical reader of comics love to have a comic book or TPB in their hands - you know, the tactile and olfactory experiences as well (I love the smell of new and old comics).

I for one, LOVE the smell and feel of comics. I do have digital copies of comics as they are easier to carry around when on a trip for work but when it comes to Valiant, I am exclusive in regards to reading the actual book, having it in my hands when I read it. I am about 75% done with my Crossgen collection. I have them all on digital format but I have not read ONE issue on my laptop... I want that 'tactile and olfactory experience' when I start to read these books. There is nothing like it. Crossgen has 'comics on the web (cow)' which were pretty spiffy. You could mouse over on the word balloon on a page and it would enlarge so you could read it but it also had music and 'not so great' voice acting. So, something like that (if well done) might be an avenue of experimentation with today's youth but... old timers like me like the look and feel of comics in hand to really enjoy them.

I do NOT like TPBs. I want a monthly fix and not wait for a TPB to come out even if it means reading the whole story at a sitting. I do not care for the current 'story arc of 3-4 issues' that happens in comics today. How nicely they fit into a TPB a few months down the road. What is wrong with a single story in a single issue ? VALIANT would do this all the time and it worked out just fine. If comic companies keep this up, there will BE no monthly books. Just TPBs... and what kind of fun is that ?

I would also like all of the ads to be in the BACK of the book (if there must BE ads). Crossgen did this VERY well and it was nice to read a complete book without the distraction of a two page add. Sure they had ads but again, they were at the end of the book. I like that format. Give me my STORY and then if I want to be sold something, I will continue flipping pages, if not, I have got my story read and can store my book.

SnotDrip · Post by **SnotDrip** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:29 am

Knightt wrote:... old timers like me like the look and feel of comics in hand to really enjoy them.

...Give me my STORY and then if I want to be sold something, I will continue flipping pages, if not, I have got my story read and can store my book.

X-O Manowar0415 · Post by **X-O Manowar0415** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:10 am

Jim Shooter back in control. First released issues would be a new "Unity" that establishes a universe with characters from V1, Defiant & Broadway. Then let Jim lead the way...

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:15 am

X-O Manowar0415 wrote:Jim Shooter back in control. First released issues would be a new "Unity" that establishes a universe with characters from V1, Defiant & Broadway. Then let Jim lead the way...

But wouldn't combining all those different strands and origins of powers stretch the very thing that VALIANT had working for it - internal consistency underscoring credibility?

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:29 am

leonmallett wrote:
X-O Manowar0415 wrote:Jim Shooter back in control. First released issues would be a new "Unity" that establishes a universe with characters from V1, Defiant & Broadway. Then let Jim lead the way...
But wouldn't combining all those different strands and origins of powers stretch the very thing that VALIANT had working for it - internal consistency underscoring credibility?

I have not read any Defiant or Broadway (and I am sure that it is good) but I gotta agree with my man Leon here,

I hope the new VALIANT foucus on the old VALIANT characters and what VALIANT was,(internal consistency is one of the key points) and go from there,

I would be in favor of Shooter, but I do not think that he is curcial for sucess, if Dino and co. stick to the VALIANT foundation (consistency, real people, dead is dead, ect., ect.) they can be sucessful.

I'm sure that some of the peeps here could be very sucessful if they were involved,

heck I vote for Della doing Shadowman... Hobo could draw Harbinger (or anything for that matter) Steverino could do color...

See put me in charge, I'll run the show.....

steverino · Post by **steverino** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:46 am

Elveen wrote: Steverino could do color...

[Pulling knife out of own heart]

Seriouly... well mockingly seriously... do I seem like a colorist?

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:22 pm

steverino wrote:
Elveen wrote: Steverino could do color...

[Pulling knife out of own heart]

Seriouly... well mockingly seriously... do I seem like a colorist?

I didn't mean that as a slam...

Is that a slam?????? If so I am WAAAAAYYYYYY sorry!

I was just trying to complement you on your colors... I loved the color of your pieces.

If being a colorists is bad, or not as cool as another job.... then I mis-spoke... and did not mean any slight... I just loved the colors you used...

the dark colors mixed with the bright colors.... It just jumped off the page!

That is all I was trying to say.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: "Your ideal VALIANT"

One that doesn't suck.

-slym

X-O Manowar0415 · Post by **X-O Manowar0415** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:36 pm

But wouldn't combining all those different strands and origins of powers stretch the very thing that VALIANT had working for it - internal consistency underscoring credibility?

Let me expound on my idea...
The three universes would meet together in a kind of "lost land". The Valiant characters that were just "poor" wouldn't make it out alive by the end of the mini-series. Some of Jim Shooter's favorite and best charcters (only a few) from the Defiant & Broadway companies would make it out with the Valiant characters back to the Valiant universe. Jim could then go forward with some characters he really enjoyed from the Defiant & Broadway universes as well as discard some bad Valiant characters he didn't like. This would also appeal to the Defiant & Broadway fans. For what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.

ValiantFans.com Board - Since 2004

Your ideal VALIANT

Your ideal VALIANT

Re: Your ideal VALIANT