Non-MOTA "What should happen to Valiant now" threa
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cjv
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Non-MOTA "What should happen to Valiant now" threa
So now that MOTA is out for a couple of weeks, maybe we should take the opportunity to discuss people's opinions and ideas on how Valiant should relaunch - assuming they do.
Basically, I see that it can be broken down into 4 main categories.
1) Continue as if Valiant had existed for the past X years, picking up storylines where they might currently be, and assuming everything that did happen has still happened (the MOTA option). I am not sure how Unity 2000 would enter this picture, or the Acclaim characters (if at all)
2) Continue VH-1 from some starting point (post Unity, pre-Chaos effect, whatever). Either the storylines that happened following the starting point will be ignored, retconned away, or something else. Presumably this would be for people who want the same characters with the same history, but get rid of the crap stories that occured later. The actual "starting point" may vary from person to person (even from comic to comic).
3) Some sort of reboot, trying to reconcile past characters/universes. Think Unity 2000 (or Crisis for DC fans) - some merging/combination/destruction of the old VH universes, with one universe that follows (with some combination of the old universe characters, possibly with new characters or redisgined "old characters" as well).
4) Some sort of retelling of the original characters, telling the same (or very similar stories) with different perspective and/or emphasis (maybe some slight changes). Sort of like the Ultimates line (from what I understand of the Ultimates line, I have never read them).
What option would you prefer? What option do you think would work best from a financial point of view (which would generate the highest probability of sustained success for Valiant)? Which would attract the most new fans? Old fans? Depending on which option you personally prefer, what specifics would you have happen?
Me - I prefer option 3. I think this has the best chance of reconciling the multiple universes and stories. We would still be able to have some (if not all) of the characters we wanted to keep, but we would be able to incorporate some new characters, or modify older ones. I think also given the fact that Valiant may not have a license for "Solar" any more, this could be the best way to get a Phil Seleski/Solar-ish character without calling him "Solar". Same thing with Turok, and Magnus.
I would think that some sort of storyline like "Unity worked!" or something - eliminating the various multiple universes into one would make the most sense - perhaps you could even have the bad guy winning - Erica Pierce succeeds is destroying all but one universe, the good guys fought against her and lost! Of course, the end result isn't what she anticipated either....
That (the "bad guy" winning) isn't something I can recall happening a lot in comic books.
Doing this would allow for both old and new readers. New readers wouldn't feel burdened by not knowing (or being intimately aware) of previous Valiant history. Old readers could feel "comforted" in that some of the characters they loved from the previous incarnation would still exist (with their history intact, completely or partially). In addition, old readers would know that the stories they read DID happen in the Valiant continuity, albeit in a different setting. Some characters (like the Geomancer, for example) may even still remember the previous universe/timeline, which would allow for an occasional "Geomancer Tales" type story of the old universe.
Chris
Basically, I see that it can be broken down into 4 main categories.
1) Continue as if Valiant had existed for the past X years, picking up storylines where they might currently be, and assuming everything that did happen has still happened (the MOTA option). I am not sure how Unity 2000 would enter this picture, or the Acclaim characters (if at all)
2) Continue VH-1 from some starting point (post Unity, pre-Chaos effect, whatever). Either the storylines that happened following the starting point will be ignored, retconned away, or something else. Presumably this would be for people who want the same characters with the same history, but get rid of the crap stories that occured later. The actual "starting point" may vary from person to person (even from comic to comic).
3) Some sort of reboot, trying to reconcile past characters/universes. Think Unity 2000 (or Crisis for DC fans) - some merging/combination/destruction of the old VH universes, with one universe that follows (with some combination of the old universe characters, possibly with new characters or redisgined "old characters" as well).
4) Some sort of retelling of the original characters, telling the same (or very similar stories) with different perspective and/or emphasis (maybe some slight changes). Sort of like the Ultimates line (from what I understand of the Ultimates line, I have never read them).
What option would you prefer? What option do you think would work best from a financial point of view (which would generate the highest probability of sustained success for Valiant)? Which would attract the most new fans? Old fans? Depending on which option you personally prefer, what specifics would you have happen?
Me - I prefer option 3. I think this has the best chance of reconciling the multiple universes and stories. We would still be able to have some (if not all) of the characters we wanted to keep, but we would be able to incorporate some new characters, or modify older ones. I think also given the fact that Valiant may not have a license for "Solar" any more, this could be the best way to get a Phil Seleski/Solar-ish character without calling him "Solar". Same thing with Turok, and Magnus.
I would think that some sort of storyline like "Unity worked!" or something - eliminating the various multiple universes into one would make the most sense - perhaps you could even have the bad guy winning - Erica Pierce succeeds is destroying all but one universe, the good guys fought against her and lost! Of course, the end result isn't what she anticipated either....
That (the "bad guy" winning) isn't something I can recall happening a lot in comic books.
Doing this would allow for both old and new readers. New readers wouldn't feel burdened by not knowing (or being intimately aware) of previous Valiant history. Old readers could feel "comforted" in that some of the characters they loved from the previous incarnation would still exist (with their history intact, completely or partially). In addition, old readers would know that the stories they read DID happen in the Valiant continuity, albeit in a different setting. Some characters (like the Geomancer, for example) may even still remember the previous universe/timeline, which would allow for an occasional "Geomancer Tales" type story of the old universe.
Chris
Last edited by cjv on Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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slym2none
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Not saying this is the one I'd pick, but maybe another option -
#5 - the same essential characters but NOT the same stories or retelling (a la Ulticrap) In other words, Rai could still be in Japan with Grandmother, but does there have to be anti-Grannies? Or X-O is Aric in the armor, but Ken, even Orb industries does NOT have to be part of the picture. Same basic characters, ALL NEW stories. And not a mix of anything but the original (VH1) universe heros & villains, DEFINITELY no Q&W running around in the same universe as Shadowman and Gilad.
-slym
#5 - the same essential characters but NOT the same stories or retelling (a la Ulticrap) In other words, Rai could still be in Japan with Grandmother, but does there have to be anti-Grannies? Or X-O is Aric in the armor, but Ken, even Orb industries does NOT have to be part of the picture. Same basic characters, ALL NEW stories. And not a mix of anything but the original (VH1) universe heros & villains, DEFINITELY no Q&W running around in the same universe as Shadowman and Gilad.
-slym
Some people spend their whole lives believing in fairy tales, usually because they don't want to give up the fabulous prizes.
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Daniel Jackson
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Hmm... out of the choices given #2 sounds appealing, however I would like to see them incorporate some of the Acclaim characters into the picture as well.
I also would not mind seeing a short prelude to Valiant in the form of finishing Unity 2000. It doesn't have to be part of the new universe, but I would still like to have the series resolved either by getting Jim to rewrite the remaining 3 issues or with his permission using his original plot to finish it.
I also would not mind seeing a short prelude to Valiant in the form of finishing Unity 2000. It doesn't have to be part of the new universe, but I would still like to have the series resolved either by getting Jim to rewrite the remaining 3 issues or with his permission using his original plot to finish it.
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Elveen
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I would like to see:
Continuity between the new books
Story driven books
Books aobut real people with real problems (not just fights for no reason)
Excitement in the books (random first apperances, major changes in the storylines ect.)
"realistic" art (not every character needs to be buff or look like a model)
And I kinda agree w/ Slym's #5 (I think)
Christian
Continuity between the new books
Story driven books
Books aobut real people with real problems (not just fights for no reason)
Excitement in the books (random first apperances, major changes in the storylines ect.)
"realistic" art (not every character needs to be buff or look like a model)
And I kinda agree w/ Slym's #5 (I think)
Christian
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slym2none
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You mean, like the first VALIANT???Elveen wrote:I would like to see:
Continuity between the new books
Story driven books
Books aobut real people with real problems (not just fights for no reason)
Excitement in the books (random first apperances, major changes in the storylines ect.)
"realistic" art (not every character needs to be buff or look like a model)
Thanks! I think...And I kinda agree w/ Slym's #5 (I think)
Christian
-slym
Some people spend their whole lives believing in fairy tales, usually because they don't want to give up the fabulous prizes.
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96Valiantfan
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#2
It would be easy enough to write a story with Solar entering The Lost Land during and/or as Unity ends.
Conceivably new stories could resume from there. The Unity battle could be re-fought, characters could have new origins from Unity onwards and it'd be a great core - the first 8 VALIANT titles - to start with.
Of course, Solar is a big key to this hypothetical situation, though.
It would be easy enough to write a story with Solar entering The Lost Land during and/or as Unity ends.
Conceivably new stories could resume from there. The Unity battle could be re-fought, characters could have new origins from Unity onwards and it'd be a great core - the first 8 VALIANT titles - to start with.
Of course, Solar is a big key to this hypothetical situation, though.
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ZephyrWasHOT!!
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Wow. I've never actually posted my opinions on this before (not that anyone asked me to )...
I am a continuity nut.
I like continuity preserved.
If continuity exists that contradicts PREVIOUS continuity, than, favor should go to what came first OR....extra points, obviously, if the creators are clever enough to come up with a suitable explanation for said apparent contradiction (see: Swamp Thing #21 & #47.)
It's rude....and arrogant....to just discard someone else's work because you can.
Therefore...everything that's been published in VH1 should be respected "in the new."
Which, I suppose, is MOTA's position.
Even if something was "bad", it should be respected, because it was there before you (the creators) were.
Poor writers are those who must discard what has gone before because it doesn't "mesh" with THEIR idea of where the concept should go.
If something doesn't make sense...BE CLEVER! MAKE it make sense!
Don't just pretend it never happened! That it was all "a dream". Rubbish!
If a creator can't do that...said creator should do something of their own, over which they have complete control, and not muck with other people's work.
)...I am a continuity nut.
I like continuity preserved.
If continuity exists that contradicts PREVIOUS continuity, than, favor should go to what came first OR....extra points, obviously, if the creators are clever enough to come up with a suitable explanation for said apparent contradiction (see: Swamp Thing #21 & #47.)
It's rude....and arrogant....to just discard someone else's work because you can.
Therefore...everything that's been published in VH1 should be respected "in the new."
Which, I suppose, is MOTA's position.
Even if something was "bad", it should be respected, because it was there before you (the creators) were.
Poor writers are those who must discard what has gone before because it doesn't "mesh" with THEIR idea of where the concept should go.
If something doesn't make sense...BE CLEVER! MAKE it make sense!
Don't just pretend it never happened! That it was all "a dream". Rubbish!
If a creator can't do that...said creator should do something of their own, over which they have complete control, and not muck with other people's work.
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Second_Death
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I think I should get drunk and read this again....ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Wow. I've never actually posted my opinions on this before (not that anyone asked me to
I am a continuity nut.
I like continuity preserved.
If continuity exists that contradicts PREVIOUS continuity, than, favor should go to what came first OR....extra points, obviously, if the creators are clever enough to come up with a suitable explanation for said apparent contradiction (see: Swamp Thing #21 & #47.)
It's rude....and arrogant....to just discard someone else's work because you can.
Therefore...everything that's been published in VH1 should be respected "in the new."
Which, I suppose, is MOTA's position.
Even if something was "bad", it should be respected, because it was there before you (the creators) were.
Poor writers are those who must discard what has gone before because it doesn't "mesh" with THEIR idea of where the concept should go.
If something doesn't make sense...BE CLEVER! MAKE it make sense!
Don't just pretend it never happened! That it was all "a dream". Rubbish!
If a creator can't do that...said creator should do something of their own, over which they have complete control, and not muck with other people's work.
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Second_Death
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Second_Death
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I like option two. It would be easy to pick a time during the VH1 storyline to let the new Valiant originate from but make it present day. The creators could always fill in the timeline gap with whatever they wanted including ideas presented in the Acclaim books by printing one-shots or mini-siries. For instance, Jack Boniface should be dead but books could still be printed with him as the lead taking place prior to his Unity-prescribed death. The popular V3 character could be the current shadowman.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of Valiants still floating around for new readers, who might not be familiar with the characters, to reference. New readers will be in a better position to pick up early Valiant than I ever was when I first got into the hobby and was looking for early Marvel and DC. It will help readers to connect with the new books.....I hope.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of Valiants still floating around for new readers, who might not be familiar with the characters, to reference. New readers will be in a better position to pick up early Valiant than I ever was when I first got into the hobby and was looking for early Marvel and DC. It will help readers to connect with the new books.....I hope.
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ZephyrWasHOT!!
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It would make more sense.Second_Death wrote:I think I should get drunk and read this again....ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:Wow. I've never actually posted my opinions on this before (not that anyone asked me to
I am a continuity nut.
I like continuity preserved.
If continuity exists that contradicts PREVIOUS continuity, than, favor should go to what came first OR....extra points, obviously, if the creators are clever enough to come up with a suitable explanation for said apparent contradiction (see: Swamp Thing #21 & #47.)
It's rude....and arrogant....to just discard someone else's work because you can.
Therefore...everything that's been published in VH1 should be respected "in the new."
Which, I suppose, is MOTA's position.
Even if something was "bad", it should be respected, because it was there before you (the creators) were.
Poor writers are those who must discard what has gone before because it doesn't "mesh" with THEIR idea of where the concept should go.
If something doesn't make sense...BE CLEVER! MAKE it make sense!
Don't just pretend it never happened! That it was all "a dream". Rubbish!
If a creator can't do that...said creator should do something of their own, over which they have complete control, and not muck with other people's work.
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RyanMcLelland
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#4...
I think, if done right, a great way to bring back old fans and make new ones. The characters were great...a 'retelling' could be key to a long-term success rather then an early vested interest from fans that COULD lead to more arguing from the die-hards, new fans not bothering to pick up from old storylines and thusly....low sales, early cancellation...
Case in point? The new Magnus: Robot Fighter TPB. Could it have been worse? Surely. But it was pretty dern bad.
I don't think a retelling would be forgetting the past. Forgetting the past would be not bothering to keep the hope alive for any new comics. Forgetting would be not having a ValiantComics.com and a message board and those who still buy up to this day. I do think the key is to bring in lots of new readers...and trying to restart from a 'specific date' might be a big turnoff to those not within this community.
Just my two cents...of course...those probably aren't worth very much.
I think, if done right, a great way to bring back old fans and make new ones. The characters were great...a 'retelling' could be key to a long-term success rather then an early vested interest from fans that COULD lead to more arguing from the die-hards, new fans not bothering to pick up from old storylines and thusly....low sales, early cancellation...
Case in point? The new Magnus: Robot Fighter TPB. Could it have been worse? Surely. But it was pretty dern bad.
I don't think a retelling would be forgetting the past. Forgetting the past would be not bothering to keep the hope alive for any new comics. Forgetting would be not having a ValiantComics.com and a message board and those who still buy up to this day. I do think the key is to bring in lots of new readers...and trying to restart from a 'specific date' might be a big turnoff to those not within this community.
Just my two cents...of course...those probably aren't worth very much.
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Daniel Jackson
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Unblessed
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Was TRYING to avoid that $#^#@#$^*@ book...Daniel Jackson wrote:Magnus #64Unblessed wrote:X-O #68ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
It's rude....and arrogant....to just discard someone else's work because you can.
Therefore...everything that's been published in VH1 should be respected "in the new."
Don't just pretend it never happened! That it was all "a dream". Rubbish!.
But yes, that one as well.-
leonmallett
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Surely the answer is according to tastes - #2 is difficult due to the subjective restart point (the beginning of the subjective 'bad'). A good analogy is something like Captain America, people didn't have to read the 40's books to read the 60's onwards character. I think any restart has to embrace what went before. If adhering to the core Valiant principles of rational (pseudo)scientific basis for powers, then much of the later Acclaim stuff won't fit, even though I liked Dr Tomorrow (sorry!).
For me any restart would have to accept what went before, have a reasonably clear indication of which versions of the characters they are, but not necessarily slavish to prior continuity. That is not to go against it, but rather do what Valiant did before, accept that other events happened without cross-referecing (ie no footnotes!). But then, I've only really discovered Valiant in the last couple of months.
For me any restart would have to accept what went before, have a reasonably clear indication of which versions of the characters they are, but not necessarily slavish to prior continuity. That is not to go against it, but rather do what Valiant did before, accept that other events happened without cross-referecing (ie no footnotes!). But then, I've only really discovered Valiant in the last couple of months.
So, how are we going to explain all the heroes of a universe frozen in ice for... 10+ years? -
Vault-Keeper
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Any new releases featuring Valiant characters has got to be based around a viable business model for it to be a success, IMO. Things (obviously) can't just be thrown together to please a niche audience of hardcore fans (us).
The characters returning to print might not even be part of the initial start-up. Many factors need to be considered:
What character(s) have the strongest potential to generate new sales and interest?
Which medium would be the best to generate the largest interest?
These need to be decided before a team of creators can go to work, let alone decide what pre-history is needed to establish a good foundation in the earliest stages of the "relaunch".
With all these things considered, it makes it hard to say what would be the best in terms of just a print relaunch. If it were just a print relaunch, I personally think the way to get the most exposure to a new audience would be to have your product available in the widest number of outlets available.
Thus it might be best to start out with a series of Graphic Novels. This would expand the number of outlets to going beyond the 'comic book stores', and into the Mall Bookstores like Walden, Barnes & Noble, etc. All of these type bookstores have Graphic Novel sections.
The type of Graphic Novels produced would depend on how the new owners decide to handle Valiant's past history. If they decide to stick with what happened in V1, they could release a Valiant Anthology GN, which would contain 4 16-page separate stories based on various characters. Another GN could be based on various heroes Origins. As interest grows, additional GN's could contain stories that happened during the past 10 years (Tales Of The Valiant Universe), and possibly a total reprint TPB to reprint classic storylines. This could help generate income on material that has already been produced (keeping costs down).
Should the new owners decide to start from scratch, I would suggest turning something like Bob Layton's film treatment for X-O Manowar into a Graphic Novel. With a new universe comes the opportunity of a fresh start, (whether us Valiant-old-timers like it or not).
WE aren't the ones who will be the major supporters of a relaunch. It has to be supported by thousands of NEW fans, or it just won't work, IMO.
I personally think that the new owners would see more interest and profit by using the characters for movie treatments, video games, cable cartoons, and possibly a couple of other non-print media outlets.
Seeing the Valiant characters back as a monthly comic (priced at $2.99), is unlikely. There just isn't a big enough comic-buying audience to support a major relaunch. CrossGen can be referred to as the most recent example of an interesting universe that failed due to its own overambitousness.
I believe many of the CrossGen characters have a good potential in various medias also. That's the thing, there are so many good (non-Valiant) characters out there vying to be the next big movie or video game, that it's going to take a media blitz the size of King Kong to even get the Valiant characters noticed.
This type of push will take ALOT more that the 1 mil 'chicken-feed' used to buy the properties.
With Dino & Co. not knowing anything about running a company for these characters, it might be best for them to hold-out and sell to a better suited marketing-man, make a few hundred thousand in profit, and move on.
Maybe one day we'll see what happens...But I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything new anytime soon.---Steve
The characters returning to print might not even be part of the initial start-up. Many factors need to be considered:
What character(s) have the strongest potential to generate new sales and interest?
Which medium would be the best to generate the largest interest?
These need to be decided before a team of creators can go to work, let alone decide what pre-history is needed to establish a good foundation in the earliest stages of the "relaunch".
With all these things considered, it makes it hard to say what would be the best in terms of just a print relaunch. If it were just a print relaunch, I personally think the way to get the most exposure to a new audience would be to have your product available in the widest number of outlets available.
Thus it might be best to start out with a series of Graphic Novels. This would expand the number of outlets to going beyond the 'comic book stores', and into the Mall Bookstores like Walden, Barnes & Noble, etc. All of these type bookstores have Graphic Novel sections.
The type of Graphic Novels produced would depend on how the new owners decide to handle Valiant's past history. If they decide to stick with what happened in V1, they could release a Valiant Anthology GN, which would contain 4 16-page separate stories based on various characters. Another GN could be based on various heroes Origins. As interest grows, additional GN's could contain stories that happened during the past 10 years (Tales Of The Valiant Universe), and possibly a total reprint TPB to reprint classic storylines. This could help generate income on material that has already been produced (keeping costs down).
Should the new owners decide to start from scratch, I would suggest turning something like Bob Layton's film treatment for X-O Manowar into a Graphic Novel. With a new universe comes the opportunity of a fresh start, (whether us Valiant-old-timers like it or not).
WE aren't the ones who will be the major supporters of a relaunch. It has to be supported by thousands of NEW fans, or it just won't work, IMO.
I personally think that the new owners would see more interest and profit by using the characters for movie treatments, video games, cable cartoons, and possibly a couple of other non-print media outlets.
Seeing the Valiant characters back as a monthly comic (priced at $2.99), is unlikely. There just isn't a big enough comic-buying audience to support a major relaunch. CrossGen can be referred to as the most recent example of an interesting universe that failed due to its own overambitousness.
I believe many of the CrossGen characters have a good potential in various medias also. That's the thing, there are so many good (non-Valiant) characters out there vying to be the next big movie or video game, that it's going to take a media blitz the size of King Kong to even get the Valiant characters noticed.
This type of push will take ALOT more that the 1 mil 'chicken-feed' used to buy the properties.
With Dino & Co. not knowing anything about running a company for these characters, it might be best for them to hold-out and sell to a better suited marketing-man, make a few hundred thousand in profit, and move on.
Maybe one day we'll see what happens...But I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything new anytime soon.---Steve
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Daniel Jackson
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k_c_collectibles
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I think #3 makes the most sense - well, at least to me. I think that way you can have Quantum and Woody in the Valiant Universe as well as whatever other characters you want from VH2/VH3. If it were up to me Rai #0 would still be the cornerstone of the Valiant Universe and the dead is dead theme would also still be enforced.
Like I said - if it were up to me...
Chris
Like I said - if it were up to me...
Chris
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