More Mile High Nonsense...

Moe's Tavern · Post by **Moe's Tavern** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:57 pm

If Mile High can stay in business selling comics for so much money, isn't it a good thing not only for them but the market overall? There must be people out there who are paying these high prices, or he would be out of business. Shouldn't we be glad that our comics are worth so much money? If you can find your own copies cheaper than good for you but if Chuck can sell his for lots more than good for him.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:21 pm

Moe's Tavern wrote:

Shouldn't we be glad that our comics are worth so much money? If you can find your own copies cheaper than good for you but if Chuck can sell his for lots more than good for him.

If you think your Valiants are worth "Chuck" prices then you're in for a rude awakening when it comes time to sell them. As for finding them cheaper, we do it all the time around here. That's why most of us find his prices so absurd.

Shadowmatt · Post by **Shadowmatt** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:07 pm

Solar_OSX wrote:Has anyone dealt with NewKadia.com?

http://www.newkadia.com/NK.php?Home

They don't have quite the selection MyComicsShop.com has and it seems their prices are a little higher on most VALIANT's, but they do offer free shipping on all their orders plus other incentives like free comics.

Free shipping can sure make a difference sometimes.

I haven't bought anything from them yet, though.

Has anyone else dealt with them?

I have. Great prices, but small selection.

The order I placed had a problem, but they sorted it out and refunded me 50% of the price as it was their problem (they didn't ship it out when they said they would, but it was shipped as soon as I asked what was going on).

Their grading on Mint to Very Fine is excellent. Anything lower than a Fine is a crapshoot within a half grade either way.

My prefered store is MyComicShop, just because they have an excellent Want List feature that's hooked me up on some HTF books that I was looking for, but NewKadia is a-ok in my book.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:06 pm

Moe's Tavern wrote:If Mile High can stay in business selling comics for so much money, isn't it a good thing not only for them but the market overall? There must be people out there who are paying these high prices, or he would be out of business. Shouldn't we be glad that our comics are worth so much money? If you can find your own copies cheaper than good for you but if Chuck can sell his for lots more than good for him.

That's the point: he doesn't. Oh, sure, Chuck gets the "boutique" prices for his books on occasion....but Chuck has to massively discount HIS OWN PRICES to sell books, and he STILL doesn't sell tons and tons of them.

How many e-mails do YOU get with "65-80% OFF this weekend!!" sales?

All....the....time.

Chuck's business model is different than most. It's obviously successful....but the guy had.....OBVIOUSLY....a HUGE, HUGE, TREMENDOUS, ONCE-IN-A-HUNDRED-LIFETIMES opportunity LITERALLY fall into his lap, which allowed him the GREAT luxury of doing business the way he does.

Of course, I refer to the Edgar Church collection.

You cannot have a conversation about Chuck and/or Mile High and neglect the tremendous advantage he has had over just about anyone else in the business, ever.

If Chuck can sell for "lots more", bully for him, that's great. But his prices do more damage than good to the market, by giving people a VERY inflated sense of the values of these books. So does Overstreet.

Any idiot can look at a single DAY'S worth of auctions ending on eBay, auctions from REPUTABLE dealers, dealers with a reputation for ACCURATE grading and good service, and see prices nowhere NEAR Overstreet, for everything, across the board, key, non key, Silver, Bronze, Gold.

I think I've paid Guide prices maybe.....mmmm....FIVE TIMES in 7 years on eBay.

Bought a Green Lantern #1....1960....super key DC....in Good/VG....1/3 Guide.

1/3.

33%.

I am not glad that my "comics are worth so much money."

I would MUCH, MUCH prefer that ALL comics were worth NOTHING, or COVER price, because there's so much out there that I could read and enjoy for its INTRINSIC VALUE ALONE....without having to worry about damaging NM Golden Age books, or putting myself in debt to finance my obsession, etc, etc, etc.

Does that mean I'm stupid and don't play the game with everyone else?

No, of course not.

But does that mean that I'm always looking for "that great deal" NOT so I can have $$$$....

....but so I can buy MORE COMICS...?

OF COURSE!

Just spent $600 on a lot of approx 25 Batman books. Golden and early silver, several keys. Books I now own partly because I've been wise enough to invest properly in the comics market.

I have an amazing collection of books, with many duplicates of keys going back to the Silver Age....and even a nice smattering of Golden.....

But I would much rather have paid very little for these.

And the things that money does to people...it's insanity.

So, no, I don't think Mile High is good for the market in any way, shape, or form.

Moe's Tavern · Post by **Moe's Tavern** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:54 pm

If comics were worth nothing or just cover price, no one would save them. Maybe a few weirdos would the way some people save their fingernail clippings. If they were worthless people would just throw them away. There would be no market. Then we wouldn't be able to acquire them. Be careful what you wish for.

As to Chuck getting lucky with that motherlode of a collection, there is a phrase that "chance favors the prepared mind." I think Branch Rickey said it. Anyway, when you are out there being obsessed with comics, living and breathing comics every day, you are going to find yourself in situations like that. It's true. he created his own luck and that one and many of the other historic deals we know of.

and money does make people act insane. there are users who have been kicked off ebay repeatedly for using extortion tactics to get refunds. that is CRAYZEEEE!

Some people are always hating on Mile High. If you don't like them just ignore them!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:48 pm

Moe's Tavern wrote:If comics were worth nothing or just cover price, no one would save them.

False.

There are LOTS and LOTS of things that are worth nothing that people save.

Paperback romance books. National Geographics. TV Guide. Cereal boxes. Hair.

Maybe a few weirdos would the way some people save their fingernail clippings. If they were worthless people would just throw them away. There would be no market. Then we wouldn't be able to acquire them.

When they were worthless, people DID throw them away....but other people saved them.

Would there be a market? Well, of course not the way the market is NOW....

But would there BE a market?

Yes. Obviously. People have saved, and then sell, all SORTS of things that have little or no value.

Be careful what you wish for.

I always am.

As to Chuck getting lucky with that motherlode of a collection, there is a phrase that "chance favors the prepared mind." I think Branch Rickey said it. Anyway, when you are out there being obsessed with comics, living and breathing comics every day, you are going to find yourself in situations like that.

Well, I would normally agree with you on this, EXCEPT IT'S NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE HOBBY. No one has EVER found anything even REMOTELY close to the magnitude of this collection, EVER, and THAT is with the EXPONENTIALLY MORE VAST exposure and EXPONENTIALLY MORE VAST accessibility (internet, etc) that comics have NOW that they didn't have in 1977.

I mean, other than that small, unobtrusive fact, sure.

It's true. he created his own luck and that one and many of the other historic deals we know of.

Right place. Right time. Does not equal "creating your own luck."

In fact, "luck" and "creating it" are paradoxic.

and money does make people act insane. there are users who have been kicked off ebay repeatedly for using extortion tactics to get refunds. that is CRAYZEEEE!

I don't know of any. In fact, I know of no case where a buyer has been "kicked off" of eBay because eBay even suspected (they're eBay, they don't have to prove anything) that a buyer was "extorting" sellers to get refunds. I know of lots and lots of people who get kicked off as sellers for A. not paying their eBay bill. B. committing fraud. C. Spamming people. D. Not having valid contact info. and buyers who get kicked off for not completing their purchases...

But nope, no one who's ever gotten "kicked off" of eBay not ONCE, but REPEATEDLY, for using "extortion tactics" to get refunds.

Do you? Obviously you have something in mind, or you wouldn't have made that very serious accusation.

Why not call and ask? I posted the 800 number a while back, let's find it and give 'em a ring! It obviously concerns you.

Paging Mr. Passive/Aggressive....Mr. Passive/Aggressive, please report to the thread....

Some people are always hating on Mile High. If you don't like them just ignore them!

It's not "hate" to criticize a company that does business with the public, you silly creature, it's called "criticism." And if Mile High took that criticism seriously, and improved things because of it, good for them! That's a step in the right direction.

Moe's Tavern · Post by **Moe's Tavern** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:40 pm

I have also bought comics from NewKadia without any problemos. I even got a Hulk #8 (vol. 2) for a couple bucks from them once. It's the issue vs. Wolverine on the cover that sells for around thirty dollars sometimes.

And I have gotten great deals from mycomicshop.com (lonestar). And I have purchased some sweet deals on ebay. One time I got some comics the seller said were in "fine" condition, but I examined them and found them to be more like Near Mint. The seller had undergraded!

Guess I just have good karma!

Second_Death · Post by **Second_Death** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:36 pm

Have done business with Mile High off and on for 20+ years. Have had no complaints until an order recently. The order was packaged very poorly and was only good fortune that nothing was damaged. I probably should complain about it. In my experience, their grading is reasonable and have never had a problem with an order's contents.

Have also ordered from Lonestar a couple of times and have found that their grading is about what Mile High's is with the exception of 3 or 4 books that were slightly overgraded by LS. One thing that LS does very well, at least with my two orders, is that they took great care in packaging. Each order took 30 minutes to unpack. That kind of service is always appreciated.

danthecomicman · Post by **danthecomicman** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:46 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:Check out Chuck's "sale" price for X-O #68.... 51 bucks, yeesh!

Hey - if I buy TWO I get free shipping to Canada.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:24 pm

danthecomicman wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:Check out Chuck's "sale" price for X-O #68.... 51 bucks, yeesh!
Hey - if I buy TWO I get free shipping to Canada.

Yee....haaaw!!

Second_Death · Post by **Second_Death** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:06 am

I don't care for Mile High's price structure either.....$51 for XO 68?

. However, if someone will pay that, I guess they can sell it for whatever they want. Of course, we as consumers and collectors have the choice to not buy it and go somewhere else, like a fellow board member perhaps.

I do prefer Lonestar's business model over MH's. Having to have sales to drastically lower your regular prices to something even close to market prices is annoying. I prefer a business that will set a reasonable regular price initially so as not to be hassled with sales or negotiating. This formula has worked well for retailers like WalMart.

Haven't ordered anything of great value from MH in a long time. The last time I did, 14 years ago, I made them an offer on a purchase instead of the price they were asking. My offer was accepted so I felt pretty good about the price I paid. Don't know if they still do that for phone/mail/web orders. My recent purchase was for relatively cheap books.....using a discount code of course

.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:44 am

Second_Death wrote:I don't care for Mile High's price structure either.....$51 for XO 68? . However, if someone will pay that, I guess they can sell it for whatever they want. Of course, we as consumers and collectors have the choice to not buy it and go somewhere else, like a fellow board member perhaps.

I do prefer Lonestar's business model over MH's. Having to have sales to drastically lower your regular prices to something even close to market prices is annoying. I prefer a business that will set a reasonable regular price initially so as not to be hassled with sales or negotiating. This formula has worked well for retailers like WalMart.

Haven't ordered anything of great value from MH in a long time. The last time I did, 14 years ago, I made them an offer on a purchase instead of the price they were asking. My offer was accepted so I felt pretty good about the price I paid. Don't know if they still do that for phone/mail/web orders. My recent purchase was for relatively cheap books.....using a discount code of course .

Like I said...the only real issue I have with Mile High's price structure is that it gives an air of legitimacy to these "prices", and people who don't know otherwise would look at these prices and think "gosh, that must be what MY comics are worth!"....and, when they don't get 1/5 or 1/10 those prices, they might not want to stick around. After all....it's Mile High Comics, and they've been around for 30 years, so those prices MUST be valid...right?

YES, everyone has the choice not to buy from them. YES, if they can GET those prices, more power to them.

But artificially (for that is what they do) setting way-above-documented market prices for these books is an attempt to manipulate the market, and I am as laissez-faire a capitalist as it comes. Let the MARKET dictate prices, instead of someone (like Mile High or K-Mart or ANYONE) try to manipulate that market by trying to convince people that these books are worth FAR (not just a little...FAR) more than they actually are.

It's market manipulation on a vast scale, it's bad, and it doesn't work....but not without taking a LOT of people down with it. (Think U.S.S.R.)

danthecomicman · Post by **danthecomicman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:20 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote: But artificially (for that is what they do) setting way-above-documented market prices for these books is an attempt to manipulate the market, and I am as laissez-faire a capitalist as it comes. Let the MARKET dictate prices, instead of someone (like Mile High or K-Mart or ANYONE) try to manipulate that market by trying to convince people that these books are worth FAR (not just a little...FAR) more than they actually are.

It's market manipulation on a vast scale, it's bad, and it doesn't work....but not without taking a LOT of people down with it. (Think U.S.S.R.)

I agree that Mile High's tactics/pricing is whacked, but I'm not sure if I'd consider it market manipulation. True, they are probably relying on their reputation and position in the market to give their pricing some legitimacy, but in this day and age info at everyone's fingertips and the ability to do comparison, I'd consider them to be gougers and greedy, but not necessarily manipulators.

If they were misrepresenting that their original prices are "at guide" or "below guide values" then I'd see that as a sort of manipulation.

In any event, it's a free market, so they're free to set whatever price they want, and people are free to be ripped off if they overpay....

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:19 pm

danthecomicman wrote:In any event, it's a free market, so they're free to set whatever price they want, and people are free to be ripped off if they overpay....

I believe that's called ebay....

Moe's Tavern · Post by **Moe's Tavern** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:29 pm

Like I said...the only real issue I have with Mile High's price structure is that it gives an air of legitimacy to these "prices", and people who don't know otherwise would look at these prices and think "gosh, that must be what MY comics are worth!"....and, when they don't get 1/5 or 1/10 those prices, they might not want to stick around. After all....it's Mile High Comics, and they've been around for 30 years, so those prices MUST be valid...right?

His prices are legitimate. If people pay him those prices, then they are real. If you want to use his website as a price guide you must consider all the factors. A smart businessman will realize that the comics alone aren't worth that much, but the reputation and trust-worthiness of the seller is as important as the product. Laugh all you want, but Mile High offers a lot more to the average consumer than a typical, run-of-the-mill ebay seller. That is why there is such a difference in the prices.

If you are selling comics and fail to make good money, then re-think your business model or get out of the market. Anyone who thinks they will get those prices off the bat will fail and probably deserve it.

But artificially (for that is what they do) setting way-above-documented market prices for these books is an attempt to manipulate the market, and I am as laissez-faire a capitalist as it comes. Let the MARKET dictate prices, instead of someone (like Mile High or K-Mart or ANYONE) try to manipulate that market by trying to convince people that these books are worth FAR (not just a little...FAR) more than they actually are.

It's market manipulation on a vast scale, it's bad, and it doesn't work....but not without taking a LOT of people down with it. (Think U.S.S.R.)

He is in no way manipulating the market. He may be out there on the edge and pushing it though. But that is what you need to do to make a living at this. Not all collectors are cheap and miserly. There are many high rollers out there who don't want to mess around. If you can provide them the books they want, when they want them, price doesn't really matter if the service is good.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:37 pm

Moe's Tavern wrote:
Like I said...the only real issue I have with Mile High's price structure is that it gives an air of legitimacy to these "prices", and people who don't know otherwise would look at these prices and think "gosh, that must be what MY comics are worth!"....and, when they don't get 1/5 or 1/10 those prices, they might not want to stick around. After all....it's Mile High Comics, and they've been around for 30 years, so those prices MUST be valid...right?
His prices are legitimate. If people pay him those prices, then they are real. If you want to use his website as a price guide you must consider all the factors. A smart businessman will realize that the comics alone aren't worth that much, but the reputation and trust-worthiness of the seller is as important as the product. Laugh all you want, but Mile High offers a lot more to the average consumer than a typical, run-of-the-mill ebay seller. That is why there is such a difference in the prices.

If you are selling comics and fail to make good money, then re-think your business model or get out of the market. Anyone who thinks they will get those prices off the bat will fail and probably deserve it.

But artificially (for that is what they do) setting way-above-documented market prices for these books is an attempt to manipulate the market, and I am as laissez-faire a capitalist as it comes. Let the MARKET dictate prices, instead of someone (like Mile High or K-Mart or ANYONE) try to manipulate that market by trying to convince people that these books are worth FAR (not just a little...FAR) more than they actually are.

It's market manipulation on a vast scale, it's bad, and it doesn't work....but not without taking a LOT of people down with it. (Think U.S.S.R.)
He is in no way manipulating the market. He may be out there on the edge and pushing it though. But that is what you need to do to make a living at this. Not all collectors are cheap and miserly. There are many high rollers out there who don't want to mess around. If you can provide them the books they want, when they want them, price doesn't really matter if the service is good.

I'm starting to think you are really Chuck Rozanski.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:06 pm

Moe's Tavern wrote: His prices are legitimate.

Nope. They just aren't. $51 for an X-O #68 that routinely sells for $10-$20 on eBay, if not less, is not legitimate.

If people pay him those prices, then they are real.

BIG FAT IF. 99.9995% of the time, he has SALES and DISCOUNTS to move inventory.

If you want to use his website as a price guide you must consider all the factors. A smart businessman will realize that the comics alone aren't worth that much, but the reputation and trust-worthiness of the seller is as important as the product.

So...when you have a copy of, oh, Spiderman #328 in NM that you bought from Mile High...and Spiderman #328 in NM that you bought off of eBay....assuming they are in the same grade.....

Please, then, tell me what that "reputation" and "trust-worthiness" is worth?

If you can get the SAME book....in the SAME condition...for a VASTLY lower price...why, then, would anyone pay MORE? At the end of the day...it's the SAME BOOK.

And....as is evidenced over and over and over in JUST THIS THREAD...Mile High FREQUENTLY makes bonehead mistakes...I've received more mistakes from MILE HIGH than I have from ALL the HUNDREDS of sellers I've EVER bought from on eBay. Why?

Because small sellers CANNOT AFFORD to make bonehead mistakes, like sending out the wrong books.

Mile High CAN....and DOES.

Not only that....but their inability to consistently grade is LEGENDARY.

Now....you were talking about "reputation" and "trust-worthiness"? Tell me...again...why that DOCUMENTABLY CRUMMY reputation somehow makes their overinflated prices WORTH IT over

At the end of the day.....do you spend $51....or do you spend $12...for the EXACT SAME THING.

Oh, and if you went to sell, do you REALLY think...for a SECOND...that putting "bought from Mile High" is somehow going to convince people to pay MORE for the book???

Quite the CONTRARY! Whenever I see the guy who says "I worked for Mile High, so I KNOW how to grade"...I RUN THE OTHER WAY AS FAST AS I CAN!!!

No, the reputation and trust-worthiness of a seller is important for things like appliances that could break down, vehicles, houses, etc....not COMICS that take all of about 30 seconds to determine if it's in good, "working" condition.

Laugh all you want, but Mile High offers a lot more to the average consumer than a typical, run-of-the-mill ebay seller. That is why there is such a difference in the prices.

No, they don't.

They screw up orders routinely.

They frequently send out overgraded books.

They frequently DO NOT respond to e-mails, and almost all the time, one is FORCED to CALL them to resolve a problem.

What, EXACTLY, is it that they offer that is BETTER than your average, run-of-the-mill eBay seller???

If you are selling comics and fail to make good money, then re-think your business model or get out of the market. Anyone who thinks they will get those prices off the bat will fail and probably deserve it.

True, but not relevant to this discussion.

But artificially (for that is what they do) setting way-above-documented market prices for these books is an attempt to manipulate the market, and I am as laissez-faire a capitalist as it comes. Let the MARKET dictate prices, instead of someone (like Mile High or K-Mart or ANYONE) try to manipulate that market by trying to convince people that these books are worth FAR (not just a little...FAR) more than they actually are.

It's market manipulation on a vast scale, it's bad, and it doesn't work....but not without taking a LOT of people down with it. (Think U.S.S.R.)
He is in no way manipulating the market.

Of course he is. You need to understand that comic collecting is a NICHE market. You WILL NOT see an ad on TV for a "National Sale at the Comics R Us store on ALL Batman back issues!" As a NICHE market, the influence of the few "big players" is VASTLY disproportionate to everyone else.

Therefore, someone with the history and clout that Chuck has setting his insane prices (WHICH HE NEVER SELLS AT, BECAUSE HE HAS SALES EVERY DAMN WEEK), is an attempt to MANIPULATE the market.

Period.

He may be out there on the edge and pushing it though. But that is what you need to do to make a living at this.

No you don't. You make a living by buying and selling at prices that the market will bear. The market OBVIOUSLY will not bear HIS prices, because HE HIMSELF has to DISCOUNT those prices CONSTANTLY.

The KEY to surviving in the back issue market? DON'T PAY STUPID PRICES FOR BOOKS.

If you KNOW you can sell Captain America #100 in VF condition for $100, even though Guide may say, oh, $275 (off the top of my head)...then you BUY the damn book for $20-$40....not $125!

Not all collectors are cheap and miserly.

What, are you calling me cheap AND miserly? Cheap, I grant, but miserly?

Well, some of the folks around here may have something to say about THAT.

There are many high rollers out there who don't want to mess around.

Yes, they don't.

And if you think those "high rollers" are stocking up on X-O #68 for $51....you, sir, are in DREAMLAND.

If you can provide them the books they want, when they want them, price doesn't really matter if the service is good.

"...if the service is good."

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:48 am

But only by buying from Chuck can you get one of the coveted "Greasy Gray Pony-Tail Pube" Variants.

(That so needs to be in the book.

)

stone384 · Post by **stone384** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:19 am

I think that MH (and in fact all retailers, price guides and any companies with a stake in higher values) have refused to acknowledge ebays effect on market price. The fact is before ebay, the market price was set by MH and overstreet (and much later wizard). The effect of ebay has been to lower prices drastically below 'guide', but that is what the free market of ebay has decided the price should be. The OG comic companies are reluctant to recoginze ebay's influence and who could blame them? They stand to lose 2/3 the value of their stock should they recognize the true market prices. So they keep the guide prices in regular stock and run continuious 'sales'. I know I have been taken a few times before I wised up. Muliply that by a few hundred (thousand?) people amd you can see why chuckie does what he does.
M

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:31 am

Moe's Tavern wrote:His prices are legitimate. If people pay him those prices, then they are real.

Who's to say, that just because that's his asking price, that people are paying it???

-slym

childres · Post by **childres** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:34 am

How long has he been trying to sell that miracle on broadway issue? Like thats gonna sell anytime soon (....if ever) for that price.

X-O HoboJoe · Post by **X-O HoboJoe** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:36 pm

childres wrote:How long has he been trying to sell that miracle on broadway issue? Like thats gonna sell anytime soon (....if ever) for that price.

Maybe he's trying for a real miracle by asking that ridiculous price.

k_c_collectibles · Post by **k_c_collectibles** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:35 am

You can get bargains once in a while from Mile High. If I remember correctly Zeph ordered a boatload of X-O #1s for like $4.00 each. I also ordered about 10 at the time. They must ahve found a few cases of them or something...

Anyway - there are bargains in Chuck's store, but they are not the norm. You have to do a bit of searching and be online when finds a ton in his warehouse.

Chris

Moe's Tavern · Post by **Moe's Tavern** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:23 am

Daniel Jackson wrote:I'm starting to think you are really Chuck Rozanski.

No, but I think what he does with comics is very intriguing, to say the least. There is something to be said for his methods, which appear to be serving him well. You guys that complain about him are in the vocal minority, overall it looks to me like he is very successful. And my own dealings through his website have been favorable.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:35 am

I just read his 643 part serialized account of finding the Edgar Church collection. I had never heard the full story before. It was actually interesting from a historical point of view.