Valiant "What If"? Magnus, Torque, Pete

[greg]

In Harbinger #6 & #7, it's quickly established that Torque is the father of Kris' baby.
In Harbinger #8, Pete believes that he's the father, though Kris & Flamingo know that Torque is the father.
In Harbinger #9, Pete finds out that Torque is the father by reading Kris' dream/memory of her night with Torque.

What if it was all a setup? What if Pete really was supposed to be the father of Magnus?
After all, Pete and Kris must have been together enough for him to believe
that he was the father in the first place.

Magnus definitely has "harbinger strength"... much like Torque...
but Pete has the potential of having nearly every harbinger ability,
or at least the possibility to "pass it on" genetically.

Whenever Magnus appears side-by-side with Pete in the Unity crossover,
they look distinctly alike... same "touseled" hair, same facial structure.

According to Valiant, Torque and Kris are Magnus' parents...


...but what if Shooter was really just setting us all up for a surprise story twist (that he never got to tell)?

[ckb]

I was about to say it wasn't in the VCB, but you have to put that book into it's time period - which was well post Shooter.

So, I would say "Why"? Why would Kris fool Pete that waY?

[magnusr]

what if Shooter was really just setting us all up for a surprise story twist (that he never got to tell)?

Ah yes. All we know is that Kris was certain Torque was the father. The images are convincing. I like your thinking. It's very open-minded. Only one person can answer if the idea of Pete as the father had ever been considered, and if so, when it was abandoned. Maybe Pete was made similar to Magnus long before the storylines were flushed out? Maybe it's just random. Or it's like you say. That'd be fascinating.

/Magnus

[muzzsucker]

Could just be the artist isnt too good with faces

[Todd Luck]

...but what if Shooter was really just setting us all up for a surprise story twist (that he never got to tell)?

Honestly, after a better part of a year leading up to the revelation that Torque and Kris had an affiar (and a baby), a twist were it was Peter's baby would've felt really cheap and deminished the emotional power of those Unity issues. Remember the Kris/Torque affair was strongly hinted at as far back as issue 3. Plus wouldn't such a twist have made Kris into a real moron?

Besides the visuals in Rai 0 seem to heavily indicate that Pete's desecendents get the Omega power. In a real science world I don't if it would make sense to have children have different Harbinger powers than the parent they inherited it from.

Also Shooter had ample opportunity to reveal such a thing in Unity 2000, which it wasn't.

The resemblence between Pete and Magnus is strong but Lapham drew Pete that way from day one. If they knew they would be tying Harbinger and Magnus together like that later (I believe I've read indications that it wasn't an idea they had when Harbinger began), they may have gone with a different design for Pete.

[myron]

In one of the early issues of Harbinger, Pete also says that he and Kris always use "protection"...so the possibility of him being Magnus' father is even more diminished by that...(just re-read the first 12 issues of Harb. on the way to (and back from) Great America and I remember that statement...

[magnusr]

In one of the early issues of Harbinger, Pete also says that he and Kris always use "protection"...so the possibility of him being Magnus' father is even more diminished by that...

I had the feeling I had seen that. One has to admire Shooter. A little remark in one issue can mean so much later on. That's why Kris was so certain Torque was the father. It's a matter of probabilities.

(just re-read the first 12 issues of Harb. on the way to (and back from) Great America and I remember that statement...

Yeah, you showed the pictures. Cool. My teachers never read comics.

/Magnus

[greg]

I was about to say it wasn't in the VCB, but you have to put that book into it's time period - which was well post Shooter.

So, I would say "Why"? Why would Kris fool Pete that waY?

Guilt!

She didn't want to tell Pete about her night with Torque,
but the baby on the way was undeniable proof.
It's not surprising she "knew" right away it was Torque's baby,
after many experiences with Pete, she'd never been pregnant.
But "using protection" isn't 100% either.

[magnusr]

She didn't want to tell Pete about her night with Torque

Actually she did. Once. Well, at least she tried to tell him, but he cut her of saying how happy he was to have a child, and then the guilt made it too complicated.

/Magnus

[greg]

Also Shooter had ample opportunity to reveal such a thing in Unity 2000, which it wasn't.

Ah, Unity 2000. Should that really count?
I feel like Unity 2000 was a "screw you" to Acclaim... a farce disguised as a "solution".

But, if we can "learn" anything from Unity 2000, it seems to reinforce
a concept about Pete that was strongly hinted from the earliest issues of Harbinger.

Let's just say, it seems obvious that Pete & Kris were never going to be Ward & June Cleaver.
Re-reading early stories with Pete & Kris today reminds me more of Will & Grace.

So, whatever complexity that puts on the situation... well, there you have it.

...a twist where it was Peter's baby would've felt really cheap and deminished the emotional power of those Unity issues.

Really? Re-reading Unity with Pete fighting side-by-side with Magnus
seems a lot "deeper" to me (under this theory), especially when
Kris demands that Pete should go save Magnus from Mothergod.

Either way, Magnus was raised by 1-A...
so the "real" father doesn't matter much.
(Would Kris have given baby Magnus to Geoff
if she thought it was Pete's baby?)

Magnus never knew Torque. Magnus fought beside Pete.
Torque was gone in six issues... Pete was the foundation of the series.

Maybe Torque was just a two-dimensional character (big, strong, dumb)
and the source of Magnus' two-dimensional beginnings (a one-night stand)...
but it seems that the story of Magnus' 20th century origin could have been worthy of a deeper reveal.

[Heath]

Greg, I think it's a fascinating theory and you've won me over! I think this could have lead to some interesting stories and character moments. If this was Shooter's intention from the beginning, I'd bet there was a lot more to it than just the "shock of the reveal" that Pete was actually Magnus's dad. There's the added meaning to their meeting in Unity for one thing. But what kind of impact would that information have? What would that cause certain characters to do and what would be the ramifactions of their actions?

[Shadowmatt]

So, I would say "Why"? Why would Kris fool Pete that waY?

If she truly believed that Torque was the father, she wouldn't be consciously fooling Pete. And with Pete's potential to pass down any Harbinger trait couldn't Kris' belief that Torque is the power subconcsiously cause strength to manifest as Magnus' ability? Just an idea.

[Daniel Jackson]

This is an interesting theory I'll say that much. I'm not sure if Jim had the intention of making a twist later on with this or not (personally, I would have to say no). Although, I wouldn't put it past him to shake things up later on and say hmm... maybe if Pete was really the father all along...

[dac55]

I love to read stuff like this. It brings back the days of old. Keep it up guys. The games a foot.

David

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

In Harbinger #6 & #7, it's quickly established that Torque is the father of Kris' baby.
In Harbinger #8, Pete believes that he's the father, though Kris & Flamingo know that Torque is the father.
In Harbinger #9, Pete finds out that Torque is the father by reading Kris' dream/memory of her night with Torque.

What if it was all a setup? What if Pete really was supposed to be the father of Magnus?
After all, Pete and Kris must have been together enough for him to believe
that he was the father in the first place.

Magnus definitely has "harbinger strength"... much like Torque...
but Pete has the potential of having nearly every harbinger ability,
or at least the possibility to "pass it on" genetically.

Whenever Magnus appears side-by-side with Pete in the Unity crossover,
they look distinctly alike... same "touseled" hair, same facial structure.

According to Valiant, Torque and Kris are Magnus' parents...


...but what if Shooter was really just setting us all up for a surprise story twist (that he never got to tell)?

Cause then Magnus might be gay.....

..it's genetic, dontcha know....

[Todd Luck]

Also Shooter had ample opportunity to reveal such a thing in Unity 2000, which it wasn't.

Ah, Unity 2000. Should that really count?
I feel like Unity 2000 was a "screw you" to Acclaim... a farce disguised as a "solution".

That's not really reflected in Shooter's comments while he was writing it.

From the point I left, everything that happened happened, but it might have happened in a slightly parallel Universe or something like that, so I'm going to show what went on with my guys the way I would have done it


I don't usually pick a target, I write it for myself... I remember the craft and I try to have something to say, and that's what it's about, but learn the craft and have something whether it's good or not, so I have a lot of things left to say with those Harbinger characters and VALIANT. (his response to what audience he was writing U2000 for)

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/joe/shoot2/

[ManofTheAtom]

Magnus has two fathers.

He gets his strength from Torque and his looks from Pete. It's that obvious, isn't it?

[slym2none]

Magnus has two fathers.

He gets his strength from Torque and his looks from Pete. It's that obvious, isn't it?

So, he's an Omega Harbinger mutt?





-slym

[ManofTheAtom]

Magnus has two fathers.

He gets his strength from Torque and his looks from Pete. It's that obvious, isn't it?

So, he's an Omega Harbinger mutt?





-slym

Heh, sure, why not?

[slym2none]

Is Pete an only child? Could he be one of a set of twins? Even fraternal twins.....



Nah... that's just



-slym

[jedimarley]

I have a lot of things left to say with those Harbinger characters and VALIANT. [/i] (his response to what audience he was writing U2000 for)

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/joe/shoot2/

Did Shooter ever say what it was?

What were his long term plans for these characters?

[greg]

Also Shooter had ample opportunity to reveal such a thing in Unity 2000, which it wasn't.

Ah, Unity 2000. Should that really count?
I feel like Unity 2000 was a "screw you" to Acclaim... a farce disguised as a "solution".

That's not really reflected in Shooter's comments while he was writing it.

From the point I left, everything that happened happened, but it might have happened in a slightly parallel Universe or something like that, so I'm going to show what went on with my guys the way I would have done it


I don't usually pick a target, I write it for myself... I remember the craft and I try to have something to say, and that's what it's about, but learn the craft and have something whether it's good or not, so I have a lot of things left to say with those Harbinger characters and VALIANT. (his response to what audience he was writing U2000 for)

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/joe/shoot2/

Any participant in the middle of a paid project will tell you how great it is.
I'm sure Ben & Jen were proud of Gigli during the early press interviews, right?

Shooter was given a requirement to "clean up" the two (or more) Valiant universes,
leaving only what Acclaim wanted left at the end. He had six issues to do it.
I don't think Shooter's full vision for Valiant was even close to being completed
by Unity 2000, especially when someone else's ending had to be the goal.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Any participant in the middle of a paid project will tell you how great it is.
I'm sure Ben & Jen were proud of Gigli during the early press interviews, right?
.

They still are....

[Todd Luck]

I don't think Shooter's full vision for Valiant was even close to being completed
by Unity 2000, especially when someone else's ending had to be the goal.

Well, of course it wasn't but if Shooter did have something unfinished he felt was important, he did squeeze it in. We saw that with the Kris/Peter relationship in the unpublished issues, how Magnus & North Am would've fared in the next century, and Jack Boniface's 1999 "death" (which he was required to do but we can still pick out his ideas on the subject from where he had to intergrate them with Accliam's VH-3 stuff). In other words, it would've made no sense for him to not put any final revelations about Magnus's origin in there since he put in all those other "last words" he had about the characters he was most involved with in U2000 (this being their final story).

[Todd Luck]

Another thing. If you reread the Harbinger issues, you can tell when Magnus was concieved. In Harbinger 3, it's July 6 and we see a VERY conspicious scene with Zepplin stumbling on Kris and Torque on a bed together (the entire issue is practically screaming that they had an affair). They were captured by the aliens and put in supended animation. We know from X-O, you don't age when this happens and that would go for the embyo inside Kris too. They come out of that a few days before Christmas in Harbinger 4 and Kris & Pete seem to patch things up, and the "Kris cheating with Torque thing" doesn't show up again. Unity is four monthes later and they're in the Lost Land for roughly five monthes before Magnus is born. Add it up, it's ninth monthes of pregnancy since the conspicious scene between Kris and Torque.

Plus, in Unity, Kris interupts Geoff after he says he's got to tell her something about the baby and says she already knows Torque's the farther. His reaction is "Besides that."

Anything possible but there's too many things that were consistant with Torque being the father.