Proposed changes to the checklist...

[Vault-Keeper]

There are some really good ideas being posted here. What I would personally like is for this site to be a one-stop encyclopedia containing a listing of <i>everything</i> produced by Valiant & Acclaim, with some background info on the Gold Key runs.

It's up to Greg, of course, to decide what his criteria is for 100%, but it would be very helpful to the growing number of completists out there to have a complete Nintendo/WWF Pre-hero checklist, & a checklist for all the non-universe imprints such as Armada & Windjammer, with titles like Magic The Gathering, Armed & Dangerous, Knighthawk, Bad Eggs, Sliders, Grackle, Valeria-SheBat, Starslayer, & even a checklist for the Classics Illustrated that were produced in both V1 & V2. Also a checklist of all signed with COA books & a comprehensive listing of magazine appearances (like the thread Dino started), & special magazines like Wizard #17 Gold & Platinum, Wizard Guide to the Valiant Universe, & Hero #1 Platinum. Any thoughts on these checklists?---Steve G

[Shakespeare]

It felt good. Like therapy.

I know what you mean. At Waldenbooks we used to tear off the covers of comics and send them back for credit. The books went into the dumpster. After being anal about condition for so many years, it felt great to be able to let loose and destroy comic books.

When I started collecting Valiant again, I felt that anal nature taking over again. Now it's spreading into my DVDs.

...must...have...centered...sleeve...

I need a job destroying DVDs!

[DawgPhan]

If the Rai 0 standard and glossy were both released around the same time then there is an argument that the glossy is also a first print. There is another argument that the glossy should be listed separately but on the checklist because of the gloss. They have this kind of distinction in sportscards. One example I can think of is the Topps cards and the Topps Tiffany cards which were basically the same except that the Tiffany were glossy. The Topps Tiffany is worth way more than the standard Topps. So I'm not sure the principles of comic collecting is all that different from card collecting. On another note, I also would like to see the listings for Harbingers with and without coupons. I'm not sure if they still do but Wizard used to list it like that.

just my 0.02

It is true that the tiffany set is like the regular set, except for the fact that they only come in limited edition sets.. That kinda makes it different than the rai 0 glossy. It was sold as a limited edition set. Topps Tiffany did not just come in regular backs randomly with no mention of being chase cards. Valiant had no intention of the Rai 0 glossy being differnt. Topps had every intention of making the tiffany set differnt...See the difference...

[Vault-Keeper]

If the Rai 0 standard and glossy were both released around the same time then there is an argument that the glossy is also a first print. There is another argument that the glossy should be listed separately but on the checklist because of the gloss.

Valiant had no intention of the Rai 0 glossy being differnt.

Valiant may have had no initial intention for Rai #0 Glossy to be different, but it is.

The facts surrounding it are that there were production problems when they were running the cover.

The cover can be found in three different states: 1-regular cover stock with no bleed overs, 2-regular cover stock <i>with</i> bleed overs, & 3-Glossy cover stock with no bleed overs.

According to Kevin VanHook (who was Production Manager at the time) during the run, problems arose about cover ink bleeds, so the cover stock was changed & upgraded to make the bleeding stop. The cover stock is <i>better</i> than the standard cover stock. It <i>is</i> a higher quality cover stock, & should be noted. It should only qualify as a 100% issue for die-hard completists.---Steve G

[DawgPhan]

I dont think that anyone is saying that a Glossy Rai and a non-glossy Rai arent differnt. I was saying that Valiant had no intention of the Glossy Rai being limited like Topps did with the Tiffany sets. You are only quoting what you want to here. I know that the glossy is different that the regular, and of course if you have to have it to complete your run that is fine. I dont really see why we are having this conversation since we agree on everything...oh well...

[ikcizokm]

I like the existing checklist. As I add books to my collection, I highlight them in the Excel spreadsheet so I know what I've got.

I think for the die-hard completists, the glossy-page books should be added, as they are a type of "decided variant" and it should be determined which is more valuable or which has the higher print runs. Personally, I wouldn't care, but I can see how some people would. Whatever has the lower print run would be the "variant", I guess.

But I would highly discourage the separation of direct edition or news stand edition, primarily because there's absolutely no friggin way anyone can determine what the print runs were on those and honestly, it doesn't really matter. Comic shops--unless their ownership is stupid--wouldn't differentiate between taking in a NS or a DE of a particular comic. The comic is the comic... where it was originally sold or if it has a barcode or a Spidey head logo is irrelevant.

When someone goes to the Nissan dealer to buy a Sentra, they aren't asking if it was produced in Plant A or Plant B. They just want a Sentra. Granted, people do not collect Nissan Sentra's (yet) like they collect comics, but also consider that pricing guides don't differentiate, either. Action Comics #326 is Action Comics #326 regardless of being NS or DE.

Anyway, that's my chunk of change on this subject for now I guess. I like the list the way it is, but agree there should be a separation of just regular issues and the variants, specials, VVSS, colored logos, etc.

Looking forward to seeing the new list!

[mrwoogieman]

newsstand variants broken out only if there is a cover price differential. Those are recognized in Overstreet e.g., Marvel 30 and 35 cent variants are listed separately from their 25 and 30 cent counterparts.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

where it was originally sold or if it has a barcode or a Spidey head logo is irrelevant.

When someone goes to the Nissan dealer to buy a Sentra, they aren't asking if it was produced in Plant A or Plant B. They just want a Sentra. Granted, people do not collect Nissan Sentra's (yet) like they collect comics, but also consider that pricing guides don't differentiate, either. Action Comics #326 is Action Comics #326 regardless of being NS or DE.

Not true. Some people ONLY collect direct editions. In fact, there are books that have art EXCLUSIVE to the direct editions (Spiderman #302-#328, Hulk #341-344 for example.)

In terms of content, the books are identical. However..historically, newsstand books have been subject to more wear and tear than their direct counterparts, because of the way they're displayed, etc.

So, it's far more likely that a newstand book will have damage that a novice will call 'NM/M!' than a direct edition. Keyword being: likely.

If the difference is not important to YOU, hey, that's cool, that's your thing...but they do indeed have a legitimate difference, and a significant one at that, and some collectors make it a point to only buy one or the other (mainly focusing on the direct editions.)

And the Nissan Sentra analogy doesn't work, because all copies of any specific issue are printed at the same place (Ronalds, Sparta, etc.), not Plant A or Plant B. The difference is the UPC box information, not the place of production.

And...Action Comics #326 was produced roughly 8 years before the UPC was invented, and 10 years before it showed up on comics.

[tanord]

It is true that the tiffany set is like the regular set, except for the fact that they only come in limited edition sets.. That kinda makes it different than the rai 0 glossy. It was sold as a limited edition set. Topps Tiffany did not just come in regular backs randomly with no mention of being chase cards. Valiant had no intention of the Rai 0 glossy being differnt. Topps had every intention of making the tiffany set differnt...See the difference...
I dont think that anyone is saying that a Glossy Rai and a non-glossy Rai arent differnt. I was saying that Valiant had no intention of the Glossy Rai being limited like Topps did with the Tiffany sets. You are only quoting what you want to here. I know that the glossy is different that the regular, and of course if you have to have it to complete your run that is fine. I dont really see why we are having this conversation since we agree on everything...oh well...

Irrelevant. It does not matter if a company's intention is to make a set limited. What matters is if the ACTUAL product is limited. There were posters on this board that stated that the Rai 0 glossy is harder to find than the regular standard version. Therefore....the Rai 0 glossy is in limited supply. Did the intention of Valiant not trying to make it limited matter? nope. By the way, one of my points that I tried to make in my previous post is about not much difference in collecting principles. I knew all along that the Topps Tiffany were produced in limited factory sets. You need to read my earlier post and comprehend it better.

[The Spider]

It felt good. Like therapy.

I know what you mean. At Waldenbooks we used to tear off the covers of comics and send them back for credit. The books went into the dumpster. After being anal about condition for so many years, it felt great to be able to let loose and destroy comic books.

When I started collecting Valiant again, I felt that anal nature taking over again. Now it's spreading into my DVDs.

...must...have...centered...sleeve...

I need a job destroying DVDs!

Could you pretend old AOL CDs are DVDs and destroy a few of those?

[ikcizokm]

If the difference is not important to YOU, hey, that's cool, that's your thing...but they do indeed have a legitimate difference, and a significant one at that, and some collectors make it a point to only buy one or the other (mainly focusing on the direct editions.)

The point of my post--which was obviously missed--was that price guides do not differentiate and therefore, it is industry standard and customary comic book store practice not to differentiate. If a collector wants to, you're right, it is their thing, but I wouldn't consider it appropriate or within the reasonable realm of expectation that books be separated by NS or DE. I wouldn't call their difference "significant" by any stretch of the imagination.

And the Nissan Sentra analogy doesn't work, because all copies of any specific issue are printed at the same place (Ronalds, Sparta, etc.), not Plant A or Plant B. The difference is the UPC box information, not the place of production.

[...]

And...Action Comics #326 was produced roughly 8 years before the UPC was invented, and 10 years before it showed up on comics.

For anyone who may need a refresher:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=analogy

[ikcizokm]

newsstand variants broken out only if there is a cover price differential. Those are recognized in Overstreet e.g., Marvel 30 and 35 cent variants are listed separately from their 25 and 30 cent counterparts.

Agreed. In that case, there IS a difference and that issue would be considered a "variant".

I'm just concerned about people who would try to create a precedent where there isn't one.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

The point of my post--which was obviously missed--was that price guides do not differentiate and therefore, it is industry standard and customary comic book store practice not to differentiate.

If you don't want something to be missed, you're gonna have to be more precise. You said 'The comic is the comic... where it was originally sold or if it has a barcode or a Spidey head logo is irrelevant." There was no qualifier in that sentence that said something like '...as it applies to MARKET VALUE.' But you didn't. Thus the lack of clarity. If you MEANT that price guides and the industry don't differentiate in terms of VALUE, you should have said that. Given a choice, however, all other factors being equal, most people would take the direct over the newsstand.

If a collector wants to, you're right, it is their thing, but I wouldn't consider it appropriate or within the reasonable realm of expectation that books be separated by NS or DE. I wouldn't call their difference "significant" by any stretch of the imagination.

You don't, a few do. That's the point. *I* agree with you, there should be no separation, but for every rule, there's an exception waiting to prove it.

For anyone who may need a refresher:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=analogy

And....your point? The analogy was poor. Newsstand and direct books aren't printed at different places, which would make the analogy accurate. A better analogy would be 'A Nissan Sentra with a 13" wiper blade, or a 13.5" wiper blade.'

[DawgPhan]

[ikcizokm]

And....your point? The analogy was poor. Newsstand and direct books aren't printed at different places, which would make the analogy accurate. A better analogy would be 'A Nissan Sentra with a 13" wiper blade, or a 13.5" wiper blade.'

You're right. My analogy was poor. I just wasn't thinking that whole post through properly. My apologies to you and anyone else who had to read that rubbish.

Now that I've had a bit of time to think that through, I suppose ANY physical differences between the books would be enough to warrant a separation in the list. This, of course, just means more money I will have to spend. But I don't read comics because they're cheap. I read them because I like them and feel passionately about them (hence previous ill-contrived post of mine).

So... when's this new list coming out, Greg?

[Shakespeare]

Could you pretend old AOL CDs are DVDs and destroy a few of those?

Well, I've got enough of them. I...ahem...collect them as well. Not in an active way, but in an "I'm leaving the grocery store and there's a new one that I only have to go two feet out of my way to grab" sort of way. In my life I've never invested over an hour total to grab them, and I just stick them in a box. My theory is that what is thrown away today is tomorrow's collectible. Plus, the internet is one of the most pervasive inventions in the history of the world, and these discs are the only tangible evidence of the beginning of the net.

I wouldn't call their difference "significant" by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll have to agree with you on this. After all, price guides are not just price guides...they're also information guides about what issues have come out. Granted, Overstreet makes mistakes. But just as they have chosen to ignore Valiant price increases, they have chosen to ignore the difference between newstand and direct. Just as they have chosen to ignore collectors who only buy comics with 17 staples. Why? Because the collectors of all of these are so few that it is, in fact, insignificant. Yes, the 300 of us on the boards are, to the comic community, insignificant. Back when there were 150,000 Valiant collectors, the industry found glossy significant. If there are ever 150,000 collectors who have to have direct over newstand, it will be mentioned. But now, for all intents and purposes to the industry, direct vs. newstand doesn't matter.

Kinda makes you wonder how many other Valiant issues have such glaring differences that we'll never notice. It's so obvious on Rai #0 because it's such an important book. But you should see my two copies of Dr. Mirage #13!

After all, Rai #3 centered and off-centered...not many of us feel the need to have both in our collection, and I doubt any of us want to add it to the checklist. Yet there's about a 75%/25% ratio on the printing of these books. Variant? I sure hope not.

[depluto]

Well, I've got enough of them. I...ahem...collect them as well. Not in an active way, but in an "I'm leaving the grocery store and there's a new one that I only have to go two feet out of my way to grab" sort of way. In my life I've never invested over an hour total to grab them, and I just stick them in a box. My theory is that what is thrown away today is tomorrow's collectible. Plus, the internet is one of the most pervasive inventions in the history of the world, and these discs are the only tangible evidence of the beginning of the net.

That's kind of cool Shakespeare. I kept a couple from the early days, too. I have a 2.something floppy stuck in a drawer somewhere.