Jurgen's first Solar plotline

[Todd Luck]

You know it's funny how my favorite writers, when put on Valiant titles around the time Accliam took over, put out some of my least favorite storylines. Towards the end of Jurgen's first Solar plotline, we find out that after a fight with Gail, Solar goes into deep space and creates a duplicate of Earth. At the end, events surrounding him end up f-ing that Earth up and Solar leaves the whole planet in a state of chaos (that he caused) without a second thought. I thought all that was a bit much.

But then I thought that maybe this happened after the events in Rai #0 where Gail convinces Solar to let her die. The grief from that might make him act that completely out of character. I never could find the issue after that to see what happened. So was my theory correct or was their some other attempt in the later issues to explain why Solar acted so out of wack in that storyline? Did the book get any better?

[ManofTheAtom]

VALIANT never recovered from Birthquake... it only got worse.

As for when in Solar continuity the creation of Earth 2 happened...

I think it happened in real time relative to Earth. He broke up with Gayle, went into space, found a planet, went back in time millions of years and then changed it into an Earth-like world.

Both planets shared the same calendar and history, so 1995 here was 1995 there.

After Solar left Earth 2 he returned to Earth 1 where he met some of the most idiotic bad guys in the history of the medium.

One was a gay guy that wanted to get it on with Solar... that was his whole motivation, that he wanted to have sex with Solar.

It was a really bad "Superman/Lex Luthor" joke brought to life.

In the last issue, Solar returned to Earth 2 and found it about to be destroyed by a collapsing sun.

He merged with the sun and saved the Earth and that was the last time we saw him in then-current continuity.

Let's ignore the VH 2 crapfest and concentrate on VALIANT continuity.

Sometime between when he merged with the sun and 2064 (Rai #0/Death Mate), Solar has to return to Earth, which is what the fan fic comic we're doing, Solar 2004, will try to show.

[dave]

you mean rai 0 deathmate and of course magnus right?

don't forget magnus!

[ManofTheAtom]

you mean rai 0 deathmate and of course magnus right?

don't forget magnus!

Heh.

Well, Magnus is something else.

There's what happened between his merging with the sun and 2064, and then there's what happened between his splitting into the Explorer and his apperance in Magnus: Invasion

[dave]

so much to do-so little time!

[ManofTheAtom]

so much to do-so little time!

Lol

[BloodOfHeroes]

In the last issue, Solar returned to Earth 2 and found it about to be destroyed by a collapsing sun.

He merged with the sun and saved the Earth and that was the last time we saw him in then-current continuity.

Let's ignore the VH 2 crapfest and concentrate on VALIANT continuity.

Sometime between when he merged with the sun and 2064 (Rai #0/Death Mate), Solar has to return to Earth, which is what the fan fic comic we're doing, Solar 2004, will try to show.

Taking the easy way, out, eh?

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Taking the easy way, out, eh?

Lol.

Wait and see.... muhahahahahahahahah... wait and seee

Ahem...

The let's ignore reference was in re: to this particular conversation

Don't worry, the Solar 2004 project has it all

[Todd Luck]

VALIANT never recovered from Birthquake... it only got worse.

As for when in Solar continuity the creation of Earth 2 happened...

I think it happened in real time relative to Earth. He broke up with Gayle, went into space, found a planet, went back in time millions of years and then changed it into an Earth-like world.

Why in the world did Solar and Gayle break-up? Must have been pretty bad to make him create an entire planet as a coping mechanism

Didn't he blow up a state or something after Jurgens left? It's like the character just lost more and more of himself after Shooter left.

One of the things that made me stop reading the book was a brief fight with the Eggbreakers in issue 23 or 24 where Solar slammed them into metal walls so hard that it dented the metal! Just a year earlier Solar didn't even want to punch these kids out of fear he could hurt them, now he's bashing them around like he doesn't even care. Ofcourse, that was also the issue were I first saw Harada start spouting off about the Harbingers being are his "people" and how they were superior, at which point I realized that post-unity Harada spelled backwards is Magneto:). And to think the Valiant comics got even further out there after that...

[ManofTheAtom]

Why in the world did Solar and Gayle break-up? Must have been pretty bad to make him create an entire planet as a coping mechanism

That's nothing. According to VH 2, he did it again.

All of VH 2 was created when Solar saw Aric use the Cosmic Cube to go back to the past.

Solar went deeper into the past and created the VALIANT multiverse.

He paid particular attention to VH 2 because he thought that things in this reality would be different from his reality.

In essense, he was hoping to repeat what happened in Jurgen's comics but in a grander scale.

Didn't he blow up a state or something after Jurgens left? It's like the character just lost more and more of himself after Shooter left.

Texas.

One of the things that made me stop reading the book was a brief fight with the Eggbreakers in issue 23 or 24 where Solar slammed them into metal walls so hard that it dented the metal! Just a year earlier Solar didn't even want to punch these kids out of fear he could hurt them, now he's bashing them around like he doesn't even care. Ofcourse, that was also the issue were I first saw Harada start spouting off about the Harbingers being are his "people" and how they were superior, at which point I realized that post-unity Harada spelled backwards is Magneto:). And to think the Valiant comics got even further out there after that...

Lol.

[BloodOfHeroes]

That's nothing. According to VH 2, he did it again.

All of VH 2 was created when Solar saw Aric use the Cosmic Cube to go back to the past.

Solar went deeper into the past and created the VALIANT multiverse.

Well, the FIRST part's right. Phil's watching the 408 event affected it (Heisenberg's Principle) and caused the timeline to split backwards in time. Phil didn't go further in the past. He watched it and wished for a world without a Phil Seleski. Perhaps his Brave New World experiment made him realize that any Phil, anywhere, was doomed to an unhappy life?

Re: the SECOND part: Aric didn't go back to the past. He created a world where he got the armor in 408. And a new timeline (and universe) was born.
And now the THIRD part: there was a already a multiverse in A&O, where it all began.

He paid particular attention to VH 2 because he thought that things in this reality would be different from his reality.

Weren't they? He was made aware of VH-2's creation and watched its birth. He didn't consciously have anything to do with it.

In essense, he was hoping to repeat what happened in Jurgen's comics but in a grander scale.

Re-read MOTA, Revelations and S:HOE. They explain precisely what happened. Which is NOT what you've related here.

Texas.

In Solar's defense, it wasn't really his fault.

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, the FIRST part's right. Phil's watching the 408 event affected it (Heisenberg's Principle) and caused the timeline to split backwards in time. Phil didn't go further in the past. He watched it and wished for a world without a Phil Seleski. Perhaps his Brave New World experiment made him realize that any Phil, anywhere, was doomed to an unhappy life?

I was wrong about what he created, but he did go back in time.

Revelations, page 37:

"So, treating time like matter, I rearranged it and went back to the beginning where I could then rearrange a world where I didn't fail.

Where Gayle didn't die.

Where I'd get the chance to love her."

It wasn't the multiverse that he created, it was VH 2, but he did go back in time, same way he did when he created Earth 2 in Jurgens' run.

Re: the SECOND part: Aric didn't go back to the past. He created a world where he got the armor in 408. And a new timeline (and universe) was born.

If we're to believe that all that Aric did was wish for a reality where he got the armor sooner and we take the last page of X-O/IM literally, then the universe Aric wished for was Earth 616, aka the Marvel Universe

And now the THIRD part: there was a already a multiverse in A&O, where it all began.

It was more of a dualverse, not multi

Weren't they? He was made aware of VH-2's creation and watched its birth. He didn't consciously have anything to do with it.

He did, if you're to believe the words I quoted above

He did everything on purpose.

Re-read MOTA, Revelations and S:HOE. They explain precisely what happened. Which is NOT what you've related here.

Re-read the quote above

He manipulated time, he did more than just observe.

Blame it on bad editorial leadership, blame it on three different writers doing three inconsistant stories, but what's in Revelations invalidates what's in MOTA.

MOTA says "I watched", Revelations says "I acted" and Hell on Earth says "it was meant to happen".

In Solar's defense, it wasn't really his fault.

Try telling... ooops, almost spilled a Solar 2004 spoiler

[BloodOfHeroes]

I was wrong about what he created, but he did go back in time.

Dud. 408 was in his past, after all.

"So, treating time like matter, I rearranged it and went back to the beginning where I could then rearrange a world where I didn't fail.

Where Gayle didn't die.

Where I'd get the chance to love her."

It wasn't the multiverse that he created, it was VH 2, but he did go back in time, same way he did when he created Earth 2 in Jurgens' run.

You'll notice he wasn't aware of his role as a creator until after Frank quoted Heisenberg to him, right? THEN he started talking. His wish for a "perfect world" make him a participant, but an unconscious one.

If we're to believe that all that Aric did was wish for a reality where he got the armor sooner and we take the last page of X-O/IM literally, then the universe Aric wished for was Earth 616, aka the Marvel Universe

Until Phil watched its birth, that's all he COULD do--create a world that was the same til 408. I agree Teen Tony reading about Aric in the history book was a bit of a stretch, but...

It was more of a dualverse, not multi

Well, Image was part of its "multiverse." Ditto Marvel.

And, canonically, there was at least the universe the Visitor was from.

He did, if you're to believe the words I quoted above

He did everything on purpose.

A dangerous interpretation. What Ellis says holds true: his unconscious desires while watchinh Aric both a new world affected the outcome, but it wasn't conscious. Then, once he accepts his role, via Frank's explanation, he starts accepting responsibility for his actions, something he didn't always seem willing to do.

Re-read the quote above

It's called 'taking things out of context.' The Republican party and Michael Moore have perfected it. But it doesn't make the whole any more accurate to focus on an isolated part.

He manipulated time, he did more than just observe.

He "manipulated time" to go back to 408, yes. And his act of observing affected it, absolutely. Don't fret it too much--Heisenberg is some pretty heady stuff.

Blame it on bad editorial leadership, blame it on three different writers doing three inconsistant stories, but what's in Revelations invalidates what's in MOTA.

MOTA says "I watched", Revelations says "I acted" and Hell on Earth says "it was meant to happen".

All of which can be true without invalidating the other. Remember: Phil was a bit messed up in MOTA. And only when Donovan confronted him in REVELATIONS did he start to put two and two together.

Try telling... ooops, almost spilled a Solar 2004 spoiler

Ah, confusing FanFic with canon is even more dangerous that isolating quotes out of context.

BoH

[Todd Luck]

Why did the VH-1 Solar blow up Texas?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

It's called 'taking things out of context.' The Republican party and Michael Moore have perfected it. But it doesn't make the whole any more accurate to focus on an isolated part.

Not any more or any less than, say, the Democrats. Let's avoid political generalizations, or generalizations entirely to be safe.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Not any more or any less than, say, the Democrats. Let's avoid political generalizations, or generalizations entirely to be safe.

Well, I thought Michael Moore was liberal bashing enough.

And you stole my thunder for a follow-up post.

BoH

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Not any more or any less than, say, the Democrats. Let's avoid political generalizations, or generalizations entirely to be safe.

Well, I thought Michael Moore was liberal bashing enough.

And you stole my thunder for a follow-up post.

BoH

I figured that was your intent, but Michael Moore is just one guy, and the Repubs are millions of people. Kind of a lopsided comparison.

[BloodOfHeroes]

I figured that was your intent, but Michael Moore is just one guy, and the Repubs are millions of people. Kind of a lopsided comparison.

Yeah, but most Americans can't name more than 2 Democrats. Including ol' what's-his-face running for President...

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Ah, confusing FanFic with canon is even more dangerous that isolating quotes out of context.

BoH

There's no confusion here.

I'm mentioning the Texas incident in the fic and I was being humorours about it.

I could have not said anything about it

And I'm not taking anything out of context.

In Revelations Phil admits to having gone back in time and manipulated the creation of a new world, VH 2.

This is completely independant of what Aric did and what Solar saw Aric do.

[ManofTheAtom]

Why did the VH-1 Solar blow up Texas?

Solar #59.

[Todd Luck]

Why did the VH-1 Solar blow up Texas?

Solar #59.

I've never been able to find the issue. What happened in it to make him take out a whole state?

[ManofTheAtom]

I've never been able to find the issue. What happened in it to make him take out a whole state?

It wasn't really his fault.

A government agency tried to capture him inside a machine. While there he had a vision of the Gayle from Alpha & Omega, who told him to let go and let himself die or whatever.

He fought it and next thing we know Texas is gone.

[BloodOfHeroes]

And I'm not taking anything out of context.

In Revelations Phil admits to having gone back in time and manipulated the creation of a new world, VH 2.

This is completely independant of what Aric did and what Solar saw Aric do.

One builds on the other; nothing happens independently. He didn't do it independently.

1) He watched Aric's cosmic cube event.

2) As a result of his watching and his subconscious wish for a world where Gayle never dies and a world where Phil Seleski was never born, he affected the event, causing the timeline to bifurcate backwards to the Big Bang

3) When Phil arrived in MOTA, he was confused who he was or what had happened. Frank began to snap him out of this and made him aware of his role in the creation of VH-2. When Frank asked him his intent, MOTA was confused.

4) By REVELATIONS, he knew he'd created the world, but was still confused and believed himself to be God (capital G deliberate). Donovan confronts him and snaps him out of ths delusion. As a result, he's a bit more clear that in his reality, Gayle was dead and he wanted a world where Gayle never lived. However...

5) By HELL ON EARTH, it was decided that what he really wanted was a world without Phil Seleski, which is why a VH-2 Phil was never born and his dead-on-VH-1 triplets were born on VH-2 while HE never was.

Phil's consciousness and awareness of the event kept growing as he realized more and more who he was and as the different storytellers continued the saga. Yes, he manipulated time and created a new world, but it wasn't deliberate, as in "Brave New World." It sprung from his watching the 408 event and having some of his wishes affect that event as he observed it.

This is why I think VH-2 never caught on, in part. You had to be a very careful (and patient) reader to catch a lot of stuff. I had interviews with Jeff Gomez and Warren Ellis that B3 used to have on the web. And, of course, they were housed on the fried hard drive. Dan--do you have those, by any chance? Magnus? Anybody?

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Phil standing around and watching Aric mess around with the Cosmic Cube while thinking "geez, wouldn't it be nice if there was a world where I wasn't born and Gayle was alive?" isn't all that Solar did.

MOTA said that he watched while Revelatiosn said that he acted.

And Priest only added more confusion by showing Solar living in a world that invalidated both the end of Solar #59 and #60, claiming that the Solar he used in Hell on Earth was the one he wrote about before Jurgens came along...

You're trying to give the creators more credit than they deserve.

There were a lot of inconsistancies in the writing, there were a lot of questions that were never answered and some that were never asked.

It's clear that, somehow, what Jurgens did (show that Solar can create worlds) inspired those VH 2 stories.

It would have been easier just to say that it was Aric mocking around with the Cosmic Cube that created VH 2. By adding Solar to the genesis of that universe they only made things more complicated than they should have been.

Anyway, as they say, sometimes the easiest explanation is the best one.

Aric played around with the Cosmic Cube and moved himself to the Marvel Universe, where he got the armor in 408 instead of 1991.

Solar watched this, became curious. His watching moved Aric out of the Marvel Universe and into a new reality.

Solar goes deeper into the past, mocks around with time (treating it like if it were matter) and his manipulation creates a brand new universe that fits Aric's actions (i.e. the Unity aliens, the multiple X-O commandos, etc), bringing with it a semblance of consistancy with what Aric changed.

He also makes it so that Phil Seleski doesn't exists in this new universe.

He goes crazy, something happens in 99, he moves backwards in time again.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Revelations happen before MOTA from Phil's pov?

Didn't Phil say something about having been there before?

Anyway, from Frank's pov, MOTA then Revelations and then Hell on Earth, in which we find Phil living in a reality that invalidates the end of the last two issues of his comics.

How do we know that this was really VH 1?

It could have just as easily been a pocket universe of Solar's own creation that didn't go beyond their place of work and whose only inhabitans were him and Gayle.

I wouldn't put it past Phil to do something like that.

It could very well have been the inside the Earth 2 sun he merged with...

Of course, Phil claims that his reality was destroyed, but we won't touch that since it's the one thing that permanently screwed VALIANT and the real reason people stopped caring.

I doubt people were all that interested in writing the comics for Nicieza and the others, specially through a poll that decides which characters get to stay and which ones get to go...

(See, I even addressed the ending of X-O/IM, I don't ignore it )

[BloodOfHeroes]

Phil standing around and watching Aric mess around with the Cosmic Cube while thinking "geez, wouldn't it be nice if there was a world where I wasn't born and Gayle was alive?" isn't all that Solar did.

MOTA said that he watched while Revelatiosn said that he acted.

And Priest only added more confusion by showing Solar living in a world that invalidated both the end of Solar #59 and #60, claiming that the Solar he used in Hell on Earth was the one he wrote about before Jurgens came along...

Sigh. Never mind. Some things can't be taught, apparently, and I'm not going to try anymore with this. You don't get it, fine.

You're trying to give the creators more credit than they deserve.

Nope. I'm trying to give them their due. It's all spelled out. I even simplified it for you in my last post. But whatever. Phil gradually started remembering things.

There were a lot of inconsistancies in the writing, there were a lot of questions that were never answered and some that were never asked.

It's clear that, somehow, what Jurgens did (show that Solar can create worlds) inspired those VH 2 stories.

Dunno. Fabian created a new world, post-408. Ellis created a new world PRIOR to that, to explain why there were different Immortal Brothers.

It would have been easier just to say that it was Aric mocking around with the Cosmic Cube that created VH 2. By adding Solar to the genesis of that universe they only made things more complicated than they should have been.

It's not at all complicated to some of us. Aric didn't know enough to created a new world like VH-2.

Anyway, as they say, sometimes the easiest explanation is the best one.

I'm sure the Iron Man fans would have appreciated it.

Aric played around with the Cosmic Cube and moved himself to the Marvel Universe, where he got the armor in 408 instead of 1991.

Solar watched this, became curious. His watching moved Aric out of the Marvel Universe and into a new reality.

Well, except you ignore too much VH-2 canon. And make stuff up.

Solar goes deeper into the past, mocks around with time (treating it like if it were matter) and his manipulation creates a brand new universe that fits Aric's actions (i.e. the Unity aliens, the multiple X-O commandos, etc), bringing with it a semblance of consistancy with what Aric changed.

He also makes it so that Phil Seleski doesn't exists in this new universe.

One out of context quote is all your evidence for that. I hope you know.

He goes crazy, something happens in 99, he moves backwards in time again.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Revelations happen before MOTA from Phil's pov?

Nope. His different appearances in MOTA happened in a different sequence for him than for Frank. REVELATIONS ends with him giving up the MOTA power, remember?

Didn't Phil say something about having been there before?

In REVELATIONS, yep.

Anyway, from Frank's pov, MOTA then Revelations and then Hell on Earth, in which we find Phil living in a reality that invalidates the end of the last two issues of his comics.

How do we know that this was really VH 1?

Because Priest and Acclaim said so?

The VH-1 Solar we say is from a period of time prior to 1997. How do we know this? Because he hasn't yet become the MOTA we meet in VH-2. It's pre-1999. Just because something happened that we didn't see (Solar "un-merging" with the Brave New World's sun) doesn't mean it didn't happen. If that was the same Solar, then he left for some reason.

It could have just as easily been a pocket universe of Solar's own creation that didn't go beyond their place of work and whose only inhabitans were him and Gayle.

I wouldn't put it past Phil to do something like that.

It could very well have been the inside the Earth 2 sun he merged with...

1) No proof. Not one bit of proof.
2) Didn't you just say the simplest explanations are the best?

Stop trying to DC-ify Valiant and Acclaim. A good writer sticks with what's canon and works with it; (s)he doesn't ignore the parts that are inconvenient and pretend they never happened.

Of course, Phil claims that his reality was destroyed, but we won't touch that since it's the one thing that permanently screwed VALIANT and the real reason people stopped caring.

I doubt people were all that interested in writing the comics for Nicieza and the others, specially through a poll that decides which characters get to stay and which ones get to go...

(See, I even addressed the ending of X-O/IM, I don't ignore it )

So now people stopped caring because of Fabian's 1999 proposal (which even you didn't learn about til I shared it with you on the old newsgroup)?

First it was Shooter's leaving that destroyed Valiant. Then it was Bob Layton being a "hack." Then it was Bob Layton hiring flavors of the week who threw continuity ouit the window. Then it was Fabian creating VH-2. NOW it's Fabian's 1999 Event? I guess the good thing is that pretty soon, you'll have to admit that U2K finished it off, huh?

And while you didn't ignore the x-over, you just make stuff up.

BoH, stopping before this turns into one of our usual conversations...