VH 1 Can Never Come Back

[Ryan]

Well, killing Darque and ridding the world of the Darque power could be separate events.

/Magnus

Exactly. Really the only line in Rai 0 that's under any scrutiny is this one:

Screenshot 2024-02-28 120932.png

No mention of Jack dying or Master Darque at all. Just 'ridding humanity of the Darque Power'. Shadowman had already been established as a lineage hero so 'the dark vested hero called Shadowman' could be Maxim or someone else. Darque could be alive and well with no contradictions.

So this is the reason VH1 Can Never Come Back?

It could, sure.

To me, concerns about the minutiae of specific continuity or whether something is called Vh1, Vh4 or whatever isn't that important. What I'd like to see most is more respect for the original universe from the VEI people and a true passionate care for the characters/world from the people making the comics. That would go a long way for me.

I don't think we've seen anything less since VEI started.

I guess that's easier to say if you haven't read anything in 7 years. I would still disagree though.

[Ryan]

Instead of making every thread about Vh1, why not some discussions looking forward in a constructive manner toward the continuation of VEI? Going from your own thesis in the original post:

Dinesh provided VALIANT with a strong foundation (considerably stronger than VH 2 did), and that's what Alien should build on.

With that being the case, and 14 years of publication to draw from and build on, there should be more than enough fodder for discussion.


What are the major storylines from the last 14 years that people want to see continued, resolved, or expanded on?

What are people's favorite characters that they want to see more of? Any characters that you're tired of or feel like get too much spotlight?

What about side characters and villains, who are they ones you want to see more of or can't get enough of?

Any character origins that need more expansion or depth?

In the case of a VEI soft reboot:

If VEI was to prune some of its history, what are the series/storylines that people think are essential and must be kept, and what are the ones that don't fit and should be dismissed?

What are the strongest core concepts/characters and storylines from the VEI era that people think should be built off of, and what are the ones that should be forgotten or less emphasized?


And on and on. This is the kind of stuff we used to talk about all the time on this board and it helps to build the fanbase and build interest in the current comics that are coming out.

[ManofTheAtom]

Instead of making every thread about Vh1, why not some discussions looking forward in a constructive manner toward the continuation of VEI? Going from your own thesis in the original post:

Dinesh provided VALIANT with a strong foundation (considerably stronger than VH 2 did), and that's what Alien should build on.

With that being the case, and 14 years of publication to draw from and build on, there should be more than enough fodder for discussion.


What are the major storylines from the last 14 years that people want to see continued, resolved, or expanded on?

What are people's favorite characters that they want to see more of? Any characters that you're tired of or feel like get too much spotlight?

What about side characters and villains, who are they ones you want to see more of or can't get enough of?

Any character origins that need more expansion or depth?

In the case of a VEI soft reboot:

If VEI was to prune some of its history, what are the series/storylines that people think are essential and must be kept, and what are the ones that don't fit and should be dismissed?

What are the strongest core concepts/characters and storylines from the VEI era that people think should be built off of, and what are the ones that should be forgotten or less emphasized?


And on and on. This is the kind of stuff we used to talk about all the time on this board and it helps to build the fanbase and build interest in the current comics that are coming out.

Good questions.

I think that in many cases most stories have reached their natural conclusions, no? Particularly because most were written-driven, like with Venditti, Van Lente, and Dysart.

Did they leave any pending plots unresolved?

[Ryan]

Good questions.

I think that in many cases most stories have reached their natural conclusions, no? Particularly because most were written-driven, like with Venditti, Van Lente, and Dysart.

Did they leave any pending plots unresolved?

I wouldn't know, this is a question for the people who love VEI and claim it's the better universe to go forward with. You're the one who made this topic saying VEI is the strong foundation that Alien should build on.

Wouldn't a strong foundation include a fanbase that has a strong desire to read more adventures of the characters and have a bunch of unanswered questions about the characters and world?

If these same questions were asked regarding Vh1, I could easily answer all of them in great detail off the top of my head even though I haven't read many of those comics in 30 years. There would be a ton of things I'd be interested in seeing in further adventures or more in depth back stories of those characters and that world.

To me, that's the definition of a strong foundation to build a fictional universe from. Your claiming that VEI is the better foundation, I'm just not seeing the evidence to back that up.

[ManofTheAtom]

Good questions.

I think that in many cases most stories have reached their natural conclusions, no? Particularly because most were written-driven, like with Venditti, Van Lente, and Dysart.

Did they leave any pending plots unresolved?

I wouldn't know, this is a question for the people who love VEI and claim it's the better universe to go forward with. You're the one who made this topic saying VEI is the strong foundation that Alien should build on.

Wouldn't a strong foundation include a fanbase that has a strong desire to read more adventures of the characters and have a bunch of unanswered questions about the characters and world?

If these same questions were asked regarding Vh1, I could easily answer all of them in great detail off the top of my head even though I haven't read many of those comics in 30 years. There would be a ton of things I'd be interested in seeing in further adventures or more in depth back stories of those characters and that world.

To me, that's the definition of a strong foundation to build a fictional universe from. Your claiming that VEI is the better foundation, I'm just not seeing the evidence to back that up.

If the VEI iteration didn't have a fanbase, they'd likely reboot. That was essentially Nicieza's logic for doing VH 2, that VH 1 didn't have a strong enough fanbase.

[Ryan]

If the VEI iteration didn't have a fanbase, they'd likely reboot. That was essentially Nicieza's logic for doing VH 2, that VH 1 didn't have a strong enough fanbase.

Yeah everyone stopped reading because the books after Birthquake were utter trash. Biggest bag fumble in the history of comics

[ManofTheAtom]

If the VEI iteration didn't have a fanbase, they'd likely reboot. That was essentially Nicieza's logic for doing VH 2, that VH 1 didn't have a strong enough fanbase.

Yeah everyone stopped reading because the books after Birthquake were utter trash. Biggest bag fumble in the history of comics

Yeah.

[Ryan]

If the VEI iteration didn't have a fanbase, they'd likely reboot. That was essentially Nicieza's logic for doing VH 2, that VH 1 didn't have a strong enough fanbase.

Yeah everyone stopped reading because the books after Birthquake were utter trash. Biggest bag fumble in the history of comics

Yeah.

I think the fanbase was still pretty big though. If Valiant had got back to making good comics with the characters people liked the sales would have gone up. Rebooting was a mistake of hubris.

Rebooting is also the easier choice. Instead of making the new writers read all the old books and fit them in, just hire 'hot' names and let them do whatever they want with the basic concepts and brand names.

I can guarantee, if in 1996 they would have just gone back to the core characters, pre-Unity principles (real-time passage, etc.) focus on writing and cohesion, etc. Then the readers would have come back.

[ManofTheAtom]

If the VEI iteration didn't have a fanbase, they'd likely reboot. That was essentially Nicieza's logic for doing VH 2, that VH 1 didn't have a strong enough fanbase.

Yeah everyone stopped reading because the books after Birthquake were utter trash. Biggest bag fumble in the history of comics

Yeah.

I think the fanbase was still pretty big though. If Valiant had got back to making good comics with the characters people liked the sales would have gone up. Rebooting was a mistake of hubris.

Rebooting is also the easier choice. Instead of making the new writers read all the old books and fit them in, just hire 'hot' names and let them do whatever they want with the basic concepts and brand names.

I can guarantee, if in 1996 they would have just gone back to the core characters, pre-Unity principles (real-time passage, etc.) focus on writing and cohesion, etc. Then the readers would have come back.

Possibly.

[magnusr]

With that being the case, and 14 years of publication to draw from and build on, there should be more than enough fodder for discussion.

Not 14 years. Maybe 2012 to 2017.

/Magnus

[magnusr]

'if in 1996 they would have just gone back to the core characters, pre-Unity principles (real-time passage, etc.) focus on writing and cohesion, etc. Then the readers would have come back.

Readers like us would have come back, not sure if it could have brought the mass market that Acclaim wanted. It's been said that they wanted to copy Image, so I guess there was not much hope for any focus on writing and cohesion.

/Magnus

[Ryan]

'if in 1996 they would have just gone back to the core characters, pre-Unity principles (real-time passage, etc.) focus on writing and cohesion, etc. Then the readers would have come back.

Readers like us would have come back, not sure if it could have brought the mass market that Acclaim wanted. It's been said that they wanted to copy Image, so I guess there was not much hope for any focus on writing and cohesion.

Yeah the speculators had already left comics by then. The readers would have come back but would it have been enough? Who knows. With all the money Acclaim invested into Vh2 (it had to considerable with all the big names and launching that many titles), I just think if that money had been invested into restoring the original pre-Birthquake Valiant universe it could have been something special.

[ManofTheAtom]

We'll see...

[ManofTheAtom]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

[Ryan]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

Depends who's writing it. Real time progression was always a Shooter thing. Notice how the date stamping quickly disappeared after Unity.

In U2K one of the iterations of the Valiant characters was the pre-Unity characters aged up 8 years to how they would've been had Shooter stayed. So if Shooter is involved, there could be something like that.

[ManofTheAtom]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

Depends who's writing it. Real time progression was always a Shooter thing. Notice how the date stamping quickly disappeared after Unity.

In U2K one of the iterations of the Valiant characters was the pre-Unity characters aged up 8 years to how they would've been had Shooter stayed. So if Shooter is involved, there could be something like that.

Whether he is or he isn't, it just won't be the same VALIANT.

[Ryan]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

Depends who's writing it. Real time progression was always a Shooter thing. Notice how the date stamping quickly disappeared after Unity.

In U2K one of the iterations of the Valiant characters was the pre-Unity characters aged up 8 years to how they would've been had Shooter stayed. So if Shooter is involved, there could be something like that.

Whether he is or he isn't, it just won't be the same VALIANT.

That's true. But that's pretty much been true since after Unity, or whenever anyone's personal jump the shark moment was for VH1.

At this point no future is guaranteed for these characters. Look at the Gold Key 3, Ultraverse, or countless other dormant characters. If Alien/DMG can't make these characters profitable, in movies, or whatever their goals are, the next step for them is probably gathering dust in some big-time studio's library of 'classic' characters.

It's like we'll take what we can get at this point. That doesn't mean the old school fans left shouldn't be making it known what they would like to see. That's exactly what I've been trying to do for years on this board.

[ManofTheAtom]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

Depends who's writing it. Real time progression was always a Shooter thing. Notice how the date stamping quickly disappeared after Unity.

In U2K one of the iterations of the Valiant characters was the pre-Unity characters aged up 8 years to how they would've been had Shooter stayed. So if Shooter is involved, there could be something like that.

Whether he is or he isn't, it just won't be the same VALIANT.

That's true. But that's pretty much been true since after Unity, or whenever anyone's personal jump the shark moment was for VH1.

At this point no future is guaranteed for these characters. Look at the Gold Key 3, Ultraverse, or countless other dormant characters. If Alien/DMG can't make these characters profitable, in movies, or whatever their goals are, the next step for them is probably gathering dust in some big-time studio's library of 'classic' characters.

It's like we'll take what we can get at this point. That doesn't mean the old school fans left shouldn't be making it known what they would like to see. That's exactly what I've been trying to do for years on this board.

But the question is, WHAT is it people WANT to see? Just the drawings or the actual stories?

If the latter, that includes an adherence to what made VALIANT what it was, such as strong continuity, hard science, the passage of real time, and the like.

That means an adherence to Rai #0, in which Archer died four years ago and Bloodshot dies four years from now, while the current main crux of the universe is dealing with the ongoing Harbinger Wars.

[Ryan]

But the question is, WHAT is it people WANT to see? Just the drawings or the actual stories?

If the latter, that includes an adherence to what made VALIANT what it was, such as strong continuity, hard science, the passage of real time, and the like.

That means an adherence to Rai #0, in which Archer died four years ago and Bloodshot dies four years from now, while the current main crux of the universe is dealing with the ongoing Harbinger Wars.

If that's what you want to see, then let it be known.

[magnusr]

At this point no future is guaranteed for these characters. Look at the Gold Key 3, Ultraverse, or countless other dormant characters. If Alien/DMG can't make these characters profitable, in movies, or whatever their goals are, the next step for them is probably gathering dust in some big-time studio's library of 'classic' characters.

The GK3 have been seen as creators' favorites but they don't seem to get any big break with the general audience. Magnus is high on the list of characters that have been published by the most number of publishers and still he's in limbo now.

/Magnus

[Ryan]

At this point no future is guaranteed for these characters. Look at the Gold Key 3, Ultraverse, or countless other dormant characters. If Alien/DMG can't make these characters profitable, in movies, or whatever their goals are, the next step for them is probably gathering dust in some big-time studio's library of 'classic' characters.

The GK3 have been seen as creators' favorites but they don't seem to get any big break with the general audience. Magnus is high on the list of characters that have been published by the most number of publishers and still he's in limbo now.

/Magnus

Exactly, that's the kind of limbo I'm afraid might be the next step for the Valiant characters if the current comics don't meet their goals. Popular enough to be known but not quite popular enough to support a series or make it worth the investment needed to license the characters and fund a comic book.

But who knows what the current state of their finances are. Maybe they can produce comics at this level of sales for many of years and any losses are just a drop in the bucket for the investors/owners?

[Chiclo]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

Depends who's writing it. Real time progression was always a Shooter thing. Notice how the date stamping quickly disappeared after Unity.

In U2K one of the iterations of the Valiant characters was the pre-Unity characters aged up 8 years to how they would've been had Shooter stayed. So if Shooter is involved, there could be something like that.

Whether he is or he isn't, it just won't be the same VALIANT.

"One can never enter the same river twice." --Japanese proverb.

[ManofTheAtom]

If VH 1 came back, is Archer going to be dead? Will real time still matter? Is Faith (who let us say was 16 in 1992) going to be 48 now?

Depends who's writing it. Real time progression was always a Shooter thing. Notice how the date stamping quickly disappeared after Unity.

In U2K one of the iterations of the Valiant characters was the pre-Unity characters aged up 8 years to how they would've been had Shooter stayed. So if Shooter is involved, there could be something like that.

Whether he is or he isn't, it just won't be the same VALIANT.

"One can never enter the same river twice." --Japanese proverb.

[ManofTheAtom]

When VEI published Q2: The Return of Quantum & Woody, that mini series clearly took place decades after the end of the original '90s series (i.e., Eric and Woody were "middle-aged men").

Presumably, in the event that VEI had published follow ups to other VH 2 series the same principle of the real passage of time would have been applied to them as well (i..e., the Troublemakers would no longer be teenagers, they'd be in their mid to late 40s).

My point ultimately is that any revival of VH-1 and VH-2 should apply the same logic that was used here, and continued the narrative 25 years after the end of VH 2 and publication of Unity 2000.

That would certainly appeal to me more as a reader.

Not in so much continuing from where U2K left off, but, rather, from where the last time we saw the VH-1 characters in 1996 and the last time we saw the VH-2 characters in 1998 and 1999.

How does an Alien Books revival of VH-1 --

- resolve Aric finding himself back on the Spider-Alien ship believing he dreamed his experiences in the 20th Century?

- follow up on Jack Boniface leaping to his death in 1997 when he is supposed to sacrifice himself to rid the world of the Darque Power in 1999?

- Archer dying and Aram exiling himself in 2020?

- Bloodshot dying in an explosion in 1996 when he isn't supposed to die until 2028 fighting Ax on the moon?

Those are the only real major questions that come to mind. Other series did not end with unresolved plot threads far as I can recall.

What would VH-1 look 30 years after it ended?

[ManofTheAtom]

Essentially, what I personally would like to see from a revival of VALIANT's VH-1 if one were to happen would be the kind of thing we saw in Star Trek The Motion Picture and Star Wars The Force Awakens, with the narrative picking up the action several years after it originally ended.

That wouldn't mean that stories set in the past during the characters' prime couldn't still be told, they just wouldn't take place in the present (Star Wars and Star Trek comics do it all the time).

There'd be nothing bad about comics published today that take place in VH-1 in the '90s, '00s, or '10s. They could be used to fill in the blanks.