VH-2 invalidated

[ManofTheAtom]

Exactly.

The Explorer would posses the same ability as Phil to change the phase state condition of the universe, hence how he conjured up Void.

That makes sense.

There's also the idea that since Harbingers and other 'anomalies' seemed to be very rare in the thousands of years before 1990, and then a sudden spike in activity after, that the presence of Solar/Phil in the world made these fantastical elements multiply exponentially in frequency.

Which is what Erica was trying to fix in Unity.

This would also explain why post-Unity/BQ/Vh2 continue to get more 'comic-booky' and farther away from science as we know it. That was a lot of the premise behind U2K.

The question then becomes is it going to matter in the new iterations of Valiant or the Vh1 characters? With Solar being the linchpin of the entire Universe, it being his 'dream' essentially, what to do without Solar? There's lots of ways it could be dealt with

Exactly. Erica wanted to restore the universe as it was before the accident.

I wouldn't be as quick as credit Solar with initiating the spike in Harbingers, though. Rather, that was Harada's doing since he gained his abilities in the 1940s. Later, in the '90s, Stanchek added to it when he started activating the gene.

Solar would be responsible for creating the Harbinger gene in humans, but it was Stanchek and Harada that were responsible for activating them in the number of people we saw and those we didn't.

[Ryan]

Exactly. Erica wanted to restore the universe as it was before the accident.

I wouldn't be as quick as credit Solar with initiating the spike in Harbingers, though. Rather, that was Harada's doing since he gained his abilities in the 1940s. Later, in the '90s, Stanchek added to it when he started activating the gene.

Solar would be responsible for creating the Harbinger gene in humans, but it was Stanchek and Peter that were responsible for activating them in the number of people we saw and those we didn't.

Good point on the Harbingers. But if you include the spike in other paranormal events like increased activity of the Spider aliens, rare super-science breakthroughs, Necromancer activity, etc. it looks like there's a big increase in activity starting in 1991. Obviously that's because the comic books are being made at that time, but in-story it could be argued that Solar's presence is what's causing the increase in scientific anomalies.

[ManofTheAtom]

Exactly. Erica wanted to restore the universe as it was before the accident.

I wouldn't be as quick as credit Solar with initiating the spike in Harbingers, though. Rather, that was Harada's doing since he gained his abilities in the 1940s. Later, in the '90s, Stanchek added to it when he started activating the gene.

Solar would be responsible for creating the Harbinger gene in humans, but it was Stanchek and Peter that were responsible for activating them in the number of people we saw and those we didn't.

Good point on the Harbingers. But if you include the spike in other paranormal events like increased activity of the Spider aliens, rare super-science breakthroughs, Necromancer activity, etc. it looks like there's a big increase in activity starting in 1991. Obviously that's because the comic books are being made at that time, but in-story it could be argued that Solar's presence is what's causing the increase in scientific anomalies.

Well, as per Timewalker #0 Spider-Aliens were already a space-faring species while mankind had barely discovered the wheel.

Likewise, necromancers like Darque had been around for a century or more before Solar arrived in the '90s.

For instance, what we could refer to an increase in necromancer activity in Shadowman is merely the result of Jack starring in a 43-issue monthly comic book. Had Maxin St. James had his own series set in the 18th that ran as long or longer in which he too dealt with the same kind of necromantic-empowered threats Jack dealt with, then that too could be considered a spike.

Likewise for a series set in the same time frame that dealt with rare super-science breakthroughs in steampunk technology.

I think Solar joined a "show already in progress" more than anything else.

Since those comics hadn't been created yet, Erica judged Phil's screw up on what she saw happening in the '90s as opposed to what had been happening for a century prior.

[ManofTheAtom]

Now, how can what has been discussed about Solar, quantum mechanics, and string theory be used to explain magic in the VALIANT Universe?

Not technology that is indistinguishable from magic per se, but magic itself. For example, the Book of Darque, the name of the tattoos on Darque's body.

Is it at all possible that Darque managed to somehow do with ink what Phil Seleski accomplished with his reactor, or is his magic a result of Phil's meadling too?

[Chiclo]

I think Solar joined a "show already in progress" more than anything else.

You just want Ultraverse-lite.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think Solar joined a "show already in progress" more than anything else.

You just want Ultraverse-lite.

Not familiar with the Ultraverse, so I don't get the reference.

[Chiclo]

I think Solar joined a "show already in progress" more than anything else.

You just want Ultraverse-lite.

Not familiar with the Ultraverse, so I don't get the reference.

They were big on the concept that the storytelling began in a show already in progress, to continue the analogy. In the main lead-off book, Hardcase, Hardcase had already developed his powers, built a team and was the lone(?) survivor of that team after a tragic confrontation with an enemy named NME. Hardcase had retired and was trying to rebuild his life and get past this tragedy when he is brought back into the superheroing game.

There were a lot of parallels between the UH1 and the VH1.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think Solar joined a "show already in progress" more than anything else.

You just want Ultraverse-lite.

Not familiar with the Ultraverse, so I don't get the reference.

They were big on the concept that the storytelling began in a show already in progress, to continue the analogy. In the main lead-off book, Hardcase, Hardcase had already developed his powers, built a team and was the lone(?) survivor of that team after a tragic confrontation with an enemy named NME. Hardcase had retired and was trying to rebuild his life and get past this tragedy when he is brought back into the superheroing game.

There were a lot of parallels between the UH1 and the VH1.

Ah, cool.

[leonmallett]

And do you understand that the point of VALIANT was to lean more toward one side than the other?

It's as I've asked you before, what is it that you want to see back from VH-1, the artistic renditions of the '90s VALIANT characters or the level of writing of the Pre-Unity comics?

Unity 2000 leaned toward the side of soft science fiction as a consequence of having to deal with all the VALIANT Universe as a whole turning into a replica of DC and Marvel.

Had it instead continued to adhere to the foundation of the original VALIANT Universe it would have been something entirely different.

Why not both?

They could have returned to pre-Unity level of writing any time they wanted to, it doesn't require using any specific iterations of the characters. But they either don't want to or don't know how to.

If you want the level of writing, that means adhering to the ideas of strong continuity, hard science, etc, and that Marvel characters are fictional.

I believe that the point of contention between you and me on this topic is that you want to wave the proverbial magic wand to just outright ignore everything that happened at VALIANT as if it never happened, whereas I want to outright address it within the story using the rules of the VALIANT Universe established before Shooter's departure.

Please stop wilfully and liberally misusing the phrase 'hard science'; hard science is based in fact and evidence not in speculative and/or fantastical fiction, or 'what could be'. Necromantic energy is not hard science, nor are various other VH1 and later fantasy science elements. Hard science is a phrase you use as a crutch, but in the context of VH1 is has no real meaning as stories featuring mental powers etc are not, never were, and never will be hard science.

I imagine that the origin of mental powers in the VALIANT Universe might have ultimately involved some form of technology or, even, alien experimentation if need be.

Timewalker #0 showed a scientist from the future using advanced technology to experiment on Ivar. Who says Harbinger abilities cannot have a similar origin?

I'm thinking of such real world things like MK Ultra and the like, which sought to create powers in people through the use of chemicals and such.

Obviously, in real life that did not work, but in the VALIANT Universe we go back to the insertion of advanced technology into the plot and the negative consequences of its application.

VALIANT offered two alternative origins for Harada's powers. The first, in Harbinger Files, and the second in the Origin of Harada.

Ultimately, neither rings quite true, right? It needs something more to really flesh it out.

That's the kind of idea that can inspire a whole arc with a character or more seeking out the true origin of their powers.

The point I am making is none of those things are hard science and require various mental gymnastic and fantastical elements to be the triggering factor. Describe is as internally logical by all means, but it isn't hard science, no matter Shooter's prior claims.

[leonmallett]

When Lucy Lawless told Frink that every time he saw a mistake in Xena Warrior Princess he should pretend a "wizard did it" on The Simpsons it disheartened him because it is a cheap cop-out.

In contrast, proposing that advanced technology is responsible for the elements of the VALIANT Universe that cannot exist in the real world opens the door to more intriguing questions that craft more compelling stories.

Ultimately, it does ALL boil down to Seleski's wish machine, including Harbinger abilities.

In wishing to become like Solar he changed the entire universe, not just himself.

It's like that meme of the kid who tells Santa Claus that for Christmas he wants to be Batman and then Santa kills his parents to grant his wish.

When Seleski wished to become a comic book superhero he forgot all that that entails, from the tragic origin (the Edgewater disaster), the doppelganger foe (Erica), the loss of a loved one (Gayle's death), etc.

Clearly he became a Marvel-style superhero and not a DC-style one...

Elli's newuniversal reboot was awesome. It sucks that it was left unfinished.

Definitely.

Nice.

One big difference is the White Event didn't effect things going back into time, it was exactly like our world until the White Event.

Whereas Phil's 'event' did seem to affect a few things in the far past, not just from 1990 forward. Or there wouldn't be immortals.

Exactly.

We've yet to truly see the origin of immortality and Harbingers, etc in the VALIANT Universe. It's definitely connected to Phil's transformation.

For your wish scenario to be manifest to create not only Solar, but also other superhumans that essentially pre-dated him in the fictive VH1 timeline requires that Solar/Seleski had to be both omniscient and also had to decide changes to be made which have no real, bearing on his wannabe-superhero wish fulfilment, and again does not stand up to scientific scrutiny. And if Seleski was omniscient (required to recreate a facsimile of the world he knew), then that didn't play out in the stories, and in effect is a riff on Dr. Manhatten.

[Cyberstrike]

I know I'm going to regret posting this, at the end of the day who decides what is and isn't canon is who owns the rights to the Valiant Universe if they say Iron Man/X-O Manowar is canon then it's canon and/or if they say Deathmate is not canon then it is not canon. If it's in public domain then whoever is using the character can do whatever they want. It's really that simple.

[Ryan]

I know I'm going to regret posting this, at the end of the day who decides what is and isn't canon is who owns the rights to the Valiant Universe if they say Iron Man/X-O Manowar is canon then it's canon and/or if they say Deathmate is not canon then it is not canon. If it's in public domain then whoever is using the character can do whatever they want. It's really that simple.

No doubt.

I would even go further to say that in commercial comics, whatever someone will pay you to create is what becomes 'real'. Whether it's a fanbase of readers or rich investors, the money is what gives life to commercial comics.

When there aren't enough fans or investors willing to give their money to create the comics (like at the end of VH1), then that reality ceases to exisit in the present and we get something new or nothing at all.

That's why to me the spirit of this debate is what we, as fans, would like to happen. Which parts of the Valiant history we would like to see emphasized and which we would like to see ignored (or invalidated as this thread states).

[ManofTheAtom]

When Lucy Lawless told Frink that every time he saw a mistake in Xena Warrior Princess he should pretend a "wizard did it" on The Simpsons it disheartened him because it is a cheap cop-out.

In contrast, proposing that advanced technology is responsible for the elements of the VALIANT Universe that cannot exist in the real world opens the door to more intriguing questions that craft more compelling stories.

Ultimately, it does ALL boil down to Seleski's wish machine, including Harbinger abilities.

In wishing to become like Solar he changed the entire universe, not just himself.

It's like that meme of the kid who tells Santa Claus that for Christmas he wants to be Batman and then Santa kills his parents to grant his wish.

When Seleski wished to become a comic book superhero he forgot all that that entails, from the tragic origin (the Edgewater disaster), the doppelganger foe (Erica), the loss of a loved one (Gayle's death), etc.

Clearly he became a Marvel-style superhero and not a DC-style one...

Elli's newuniversal reboot was awesome. It sucks that it was left unfinished.

Definitely.

Nice.

One big difference is the White Event didn't effect things going back into time, it was exactly like our world until the White Event.

Whereas Phil's 'event' did seem to affect a few things in the far past, not just from 1990 forward. Or there wouldn't be immortals.

Exactly.

We've yet to truly see the origin of immortality and Harbingers, etc in the VALIANT Universe. It's definitely connected to Phil's transformation.

For your wish scenario to be manifest to create not only Solar, but also other superhumans that essentially pre-dated him in the fictive VH1 timeline requires that Solar/Seleski had to be both omniscient and also had to decide changes to be made which have no real, bearing on his wannabe-superhero wish fulfilment, and again does not stand up to scientific scrutiny. And if Seleski was omniscient (required to recreate a facsimile of the world he knew), then that didn't play out in the stories, and in effect is a riff on Dr. Manhatten.

Read what I said about quantum mechanics and the Ellis Ultimate F4 example.

[Ryan]

News today

Screenshot 2024-12-11 131717.png

Screenshot 2024-12-11 131802.png

[ManofTheAtom]

News today


Screenshot 2024-12-11 131717.png
Screenshot 2024-12-11 131802.png

[Chiclo]

I remain skeptical.

[ManofTheAtom]

I remain skeptical.

[Ryan]

I remain skeptical.

No one is arguing that multiverses are scientific fact in the real world.

But I would argue there's enough credibility behind the theory for it to be used in science fiction. Especially in comic book sci-fi where multiple iterations of characters exist in separate fictional universes.

That doesn't mean it can't be handled poorly in comics/movies etc. I agree with earlier posts that doing a crisis-like event should be avoided.

[jakgrimm]

Sorry if its been discussed but who even said that was officially superman and the thing? Could be anyone

[ManofTheAtom]

Sorry if its been discussed but who even said that was officially superman and the thing? Could be anyone

Hoofbeats = horses, not zebras.

They could be Extreme Studios knock-offs, but in all likelihood they're the legit ones.

[depluto]

I can’t wait for somewhere down the road when I have dementia to come back here and reread this thread.

[ManofTheAtom]

I can’t wait for somewhere down the road when I have dementia to come back here and reread this thread.

[grendeljd]

Screenshot 2024-12-07 094349.png

Mark Gruenwald's note for writers of the New Universe. He was also the first to do 'real time' progression in Squadron Supreme. Safe to say a lot of the pre-Unity rules started out here.

Curious, where did you find this image? I would like to track down a higher resolution copy of it.

[Ryan]

Screenshot 2024-12-07 094349.png

Mark Gruenwald's note for writers of the New Universe. He was also the first to do 'real time' progression in Squadron Supreme. Safe to say a lot of the pre-Unity rules started out here.

Curious, where did you find this image? I would like to track down a higher resolution copy of it.

It's from the Twomorrows magazine Back Issue #34. I'm trying to track down a hard copy as well, it has some great articles

[grendeljd]

Screenshot 2024-12-07 094349.png

Mark Gruenwald's note for writers of the New Universe. He was also the first to do 'real time' progression in Squadron Supreme. Safe to say a lot of the pre-Unity rules started out here.

Curious, where did you find this image? I would like to track down a higher resolution copy of it.

It's from the Twomorrows magazine Back Issue #34. I'm trying to track down a hard copy as well, it has some great articles

Right on, thanks man! I need to snag a high res copy of that pic to post up in the New U fanpage over on Facebook. And a print copy of that issue too!

**edit - I just looked up the magazine and I actually do already have a print copy of it somewhere in my stash… I had forgotten that image was in there.