VH-2 invalidated

[ManofTheAtom]

And do you understand that the point of VALIANT was to lean more toward one side than the other?

It's as I've asked you before, what is it that you want to see back from VH-1, the artistic renditions of the '90s VALIANT characters or the level of writing of the Pre-Unity comics?

Unity 2000 leaned toward the side of soft science fiction as a consequence of having to deal with all the VALIANT Universe as a whole turning into a replica of DC and Marvel.

Had it instead continued to adhere to the foundation of the original VALIANT Universe it would have been something entirely different.

Why not both?

They could have returned to pre-Unity level of writing any time they wanted to, it doesn't require using any specific iterations of the characters. But they either don't want to or don't know how to.

If you want the level of writing, that means adhering to the ideas of strong continuity, hard science, etc, and that Marvel characters are fictional.

I believe that the point of contention between you and me on this topic is that you want to wave the proverbial magic wand to just outright ignore everything that happened at VALIANT as if it never happened, whereas I want to outright address it within the story using the rules of the VALIANT Universe established before Shooter's departure.

Please stop wilfully and liberally misusing the phrase 'hard science'; hard science is based in fact and evidence not in speculative and/or fantastical fiction, or 'what could be'. Necromantic energy is not hard science, nor are various other VH1 and later fantasy science elements. Hard science is a phrase you use as a crutch, but in the context of VH1 is has no real meaning as stories featuring mental powers etc are not, never were, and never will be hard science.

I imagine that the origin of mental powers in the VALIANT Universe might have ultimately involved some form of technology or, even, alien experimentation if need be.

Timewalker #0 showed a scientist from the future using advanced technology to experiment on Ivar. Who says Harbinger abilities cannot have a similar origin?

I'm thinking of such real world things like MK Ultra and the like, which sought to create powers in people through the use of chemicals and such.

Obviously, in real life that did not work, but in the VALIANT Universe we go back to the insertion of advanced technology into the plot and the negative consequences of its application.

VALIANT offered two alternative origins for Harada's powers. The first, in Harbinger Files, and the second in the Origin of Harada.

Ultimately, neither rings quite true, right? It needs something more to really flesh it out.

That's the kind of idea that can inspire a whole arc with a character or more seeking out the true origin of their powers.

[ManofTheAtom]

When Lucy Lawless told Frink that every time he saw a mistake in Xena Warrior Princess he should pretend a "wizard did it" on The Simpsons it disheartened him because it is a cheap cop-out.

In contrast, proposing that advanced technology is responsible for the elements of the VALIANT Universe that cannot exist in the real world opens the door to more intriguing questions that craft more compelling stories.

Ultimately, it does ALL boil down to Seleski's wish machine, including Harbinger abilities.

In wishing to become like Solar he changed the entire universe, not just himself.

It's like that meme of the kid who tells Santa Claus that for Christmas he wants to be Batman and then Santa kills his parents to grant his wish.

When Seleski wished to become a comic book superhero he forgot all that that entails, from the tragic origin (the Edgewater disaster), the doppelganger foe (Erica), the loss of a loved one (Gayle's death), etc.

Clearly he became a Marvel-style superhero and not a DC-style one...

[Chiclo]

When Seleski wished to become a comic book superhero he forgot all that that entails, from the tragic origin (the Edgewater disaster), the doppelganger foe (Erica), the loss of a loved one (Gayle's death), etc.

Seleski manifested a world full of Marvels. You are right - this isn’t fantasy, this is religion. New thought and humanism.

Wish granting machines are not hard sci-fi. You are appealing to the sonic screwdriver. Bzwzwzwzw.

[ManofTheAtom]

When Seleski wished to become a comic book superhero he forgot all that that entails, from the tragic origin (the Edgewater disaster), the doppelganger foe (Erica), the loss of a loved one (Gayle's death), etc.

Seleski manifested a world full of Marvels. You are right - this isn’t fantasy, this is religion. New thought and humanism.

Wish granting machines are not hard sci-fi. You are appealing to the sonic screwdriver. Bzwzwzwzw.

Wish granting machines are an advanced form of science that is indistinguishable from magic.

Advanced technology need not come from the future or other planets...

[Chiclo]

Power of thought. It is manifestation.

[ManofTheAtom]

Power of thought. It is manifestation.

Well, you're concluding that it was a literal wish he wistfully made to become a superhero like Solar when the run of the mill fusion reactor he built went online.

What I'm suggesting is that he was smart enough to build a fusion reactor capable of granting him his wish but too stupid to realize he had, so he chalked it up to his making a wish.

Erica built a similar reactor that required futuristic technological advancements (from the 41st Century) and the proper location (the Lost Land) to work.

I believe the contrast there would be that while Phil Seleski was smart enough to build a piece of futuristic advanced technology using the know-how and materials found in the 20th Century his doppleganger needed to study for another two thousand years to accomplish the same feat.

[ManofTheAtom]

I doubt that Phil's wish caused the regulator linkage off its mooring.

Had it worked, that would have stopped the reactor from melting down, which tells us that transforming Phil into solar was part of its "normal" function.

[ManofTheAtom]

How could quantum mechanics and, possibly, string theory be applied to Seleski's reactor to scientifically explain his transformation into Solar?

I believe either of those two or another (it escapes me at the moment which one it is) posits something along the lines of the shifting state of people and objects in the universe (I'm explaining it wrong).

Something like Schrodinger's Cat, but instead of dealing with life and death it posits that the cat could be a cat or a dog just as easily as it could be an apple or an orange (or, rather, it can be all four at once in different universes or something like that), but you won't know what it is until you open the box.

Applying that to Solar, the suggestion would be that while on Earth Prime/0 he was plain old Phil Seleski, in some other quantum state he was Doctor Solar, Man of The Atom, and that all the reactor did was "shift" his quantum being from one state to another.

I explained it WAY wrong, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying, and if you do you might be able to clarify it.

[ManofTheAtom]

What I'm now thinking the reactor did was change the resonance frequency of Phil's string from "plain old Phil Seleski" to "Solar, Man of the Atom".

The reactor turned string theory into string fact.

[ManofTheAtom]

Ellis also fleshed out the hard science fiction element behind the FF, namely writing that they gained their powers because the teleportation changed their "phase space condition" into something from an alternate universe; in laymen's terms, there are multiple conceivable states of an object, a 'phase space' of all the possible ways they could be. While in the N-Zone, each one of them mutated into another form that they could have been.

Ultimate Fantastic Four

That's what happened to Phil.

[Chiclo]

How could quantum mechanics and, possibly, string theory be applied to Seleski's reactor to scientifically explain his transformation into Solar?

I believe either of those two or another (it escapes me at the moment which one it is) posits something along the lines of the shifting state of people and objects in the universe (I'm explaining it wrong).

Something like Schrodinger's Cat, but instead of dealing with life and death it posits that the cat could be a cat or a dog just as easily as it could be an apple or an orange (or, rather, it can be all four at once in different universes or something like that), but you won't know what it is until you open the box.

Applying that to Solar, the suggestion would be that while on Earth Prime/0 he was plain old Phil Seleski, in some other quantum state he was Doctor Solar, Man of The Atom, and that all the reactor did was "shift" his quantum being from one state to another.

I explained it WAY wrong, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying, and if you do you might be able to clarify it.

You explained in a way that you insist violates the first law of thermodynamics. Does not hard sci-fi have to be consistent with itself?

[ManofTheAtom]

How could quantum mechanics and, possibly, string theory be applied to Seleski's reactor to scientifically explain his transformation into Solar?

I believe either of those two or another (it escapes me at the moment which one it is) posits something along the lines of the shifting state of people and objects in the universe (I'm explaining it wrong).

Something like Schrodinger's Cat, but instead of dealing with life and death it posits that the cat could be a cat or a dog just as easily as it could be an apple or an orange (or, rather, it can be all four at once in different universes or something like that), but you won't know what it is until you open the box.

Applying that to Solar, the suggestion would be that while on Earth Prime/0 he was plain old Phil Seleski, in some other quantum state he was Doctor Solar, Man of The Atom, and that all the reactor did was "shift" his quantum being from one state to another.

I explained it WAY wrong, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying, and if you do you might be able to clarify it.

You explained in a way that you insist violates the first law of thermodynamics. Does not hard sci-fi have to be consistent with itself?

Not quite.

What is being suggested here is that the machine changed Phil's quantum state, or "phase space condition", from "average human" to "man of the atom",

In essence, changing him from one energy state to another, which fits with the first law of thermodynamics.

[ManofTheAtom]

[Ryan]

VALIANT offered two alternative origins for Harada's powers. The first, in Harbinger Files, and the second in the Origin of Harada.

The Origin of Harada was first, if you're talking about the one panel coupons that were in Harby 1-6. HF was a few years later. Didn't the new 8 page story in VEI's Harbinger HC reveal something about Harada's origin? Something about his wife, I can't remember now.

Ellis also fleshed out the hard science fiction element behind the FF, namely writing that they gained their powers because the teleportation changed their "phase space condition" into something from an alternate universe; in laymen's terms, there are multiple conceivable states of an object, a 'phase space' of all the possible ways they could be. While in the N-Zone, each one of them mutated into another form that they could have been.

Ultimate Fantastic Four

That's what happened to Phil.

I've always thought Ellis was a big fan and influenced by New U and early Valiant. Good writer.

The Defiant Universe was built even more around Quantum theory than Valiant was.

[Ryan]

Screenshot 2024-12-07 094349.png

Mark Gruenwald's note for writers of the New Universe. He was also the first to do 'real time' progression in Squadron Supreme. Safe to say a lot of the pre-Unity rules started out here.

[ManofTheAtom]

The Origin of Harada was first, if you're talking about the one panel coupons that were in Harby 1-6. HF was a few years later. Didn't the new 8 page story in VEI's Harbinger HC reveal something about Harada's origin? Something about his wife, I can't remember now.

That's the one I was referring to.

I've always thought Ellis was a big fan and influenced by New U and early Valiant. Good writer.

The Defiant Universe was built even more around Quantum theory than Valiant was.

Ellis' newuniversal reboot was awesome. It sucks that it was left unfinished.

[ManofTheAtom]

Screenshot 2024-12-07 094349.png

Mark Gruenwald's note for writers of the New Universe. He was also the first to do 'real time' progression in Squadron Supreme. Safe to say a lot of the pre-Unity rules started out here.

Nice.

[Ryan]

Elli's newuniversal reboot was awesome. It sucks that it was left unfinished.

Definitely.

Nice.

One big difference is the White Event didn't effect things going back into time, it was exactly like our world until the White Event.

Whereas Phil's 'event' did seem to affect a few things in the far past, not just from 1990 forward. Or there wouldn't be immortals.

[ManofTheAtom]

Elli's newuniversal reboot was awesome. It sucks that it was left unfinished.

Definitely.

Nice.

One big difference is the White Event didn't effect things going back into time, it was exactly like our world until the White Event.

Whereas Phil's 'event' did seem to affect a few things in the far past, not just from 1990 forward. Or there wouldn't be immortals.

Exactly.

We've yet to truly see the origin of immortality and Harbingers, etc in the VALIANT Universe. It's definitely connected to Phil's transformation.

[Ryan]

Exactly.

We've yet to truly see the origin of immortality and Harbingers, etc in the VALIANT Universe. It's definitely connected to Phil's transformation.

For sure, those have always been 2 of the biggest unanswered questions of Vh1 lore.


Another quote from the development of the New U:

Screenshot 2024-12-07 110147.png

[ManofTheAtom]

Exactly.

We've yet to truly see the origin of immortality and Harbingers, etc in the VALIANT Universe. It's definitely connected to Phil's transformation.

For sure, those have always been 2 of the biggest unanswered questions of Vh1 lore.


Another quote from the development of the New U:
Screenshot 2024-12-07 110147.png

Cool.

[ManofTheAtom]

If we look at Solar as VALIANT's version of the New Universe's White Event, explaining the origin behind immortals, Harbingers/psiots, Geomancers, Spider-Aliens, and even British ninja spies becomes much simpler.

Let us accept for a moment that the experimental fusion reactor Phil Seleski of VH-0 built was in effect a form of advanced technology indistinguishable from magic (using the established fact that it took Erica Pierce two thousand years to replicate Phil's reactor, it can be argued that he possessed the know-how and intellect to build 41st Century technology in the 20th Century).

Let us further accept for the same moment that what the reactor did was change Phil's "phase space condition" from his being a normal human being to becoming a man of the atom (likewise for Erica).

It wasn't because he wished it so, even though that is how he interpreted it, but because that was the reactor's function.

Either way, the end result was entirely an unconscious act on his part, in that while Phil built the reactor and wished it would transform him into his favorite childhood superhero, he didn't actually do anything to achieve that desired result, other than turn the reactor on.

When applying all of that to the overall VALIANT Universe, the argument can be made that once Phil became Solar HE gained the power to change the "phase space condition" of individuals or the entire universe, either consciously OR unconsciously.

What that would mean is that when Phil was catapulted back in time, he found himself in a universe that had already been altered by his abilities (much like the White Event did the New Universe).

These changes went as further back as Timewalker #0, the earliest VALIANT story (which takes place in the past but also involves one individual from the future and Spider-Aliens(!)).

Even before Phil stopped his VH-1 counterpart, the universe was already different. Geomancers, immortals, and Harbingers/psiots already existed.

I posit that, like the reactor changing him , this too was an unconscious act informed by his childhood fantasies informed by comic books and other forms of pop culture.

I once wrote a fanfic in which during his isolation Phil watched James Bond, Ninja, and Highlander movies, which would be the inspiration behind the existence of characters like Ninjak and the Eternal Warrior.

Which is to say that just like the reactor made his fantasy of becoming Doctor Solar a reality, his subconscious changed the universe into a reflection of other forms of pop culture he had been exposed to while growing up.

[Ryan]

If we look at Solar as VALIANT's version of the New Universe's White Event, explaining the origin behind immortals, Harbingers/psiots, Geomancers, Spider-Aliens, and even British ninja spies becomes much simpler.

Let us accept for a moment that the experimental fusion reactor Phil Seleski of VH-0 built was in effect a form of advanced technology indistinguishable from magic (using the established fact that it took Erica Pierce two thousand years to replicate Phil's reactor, it can be argued that he possessed the know-how and intellect to build 41st Century technology in the 20th Century).

Let us further accept for the same moment that what the reactor did was change Phil's "phase space condition" from his being a normal human being to becoming a man of the atom (likewise for Erica).

It wasn't because he wished it so, even though that is how he interpreted it, but because that was the reactor's function.

Either way, the end result was entirely an unconscious act on his part, in that while Phil built the reactor and wished it would transform him into his favorite childhood superhero, he didn't actually do anything to achieve that desired result, other than turn the reactor on.

When applying all of that to the overall VALIANT Universe, the argument can be made that once Phil became Solar HE gained the power to change the "phase space condition" or individuals or the entire universe, either consciously OR unconsciously.

What that would mean is that when Phil was catapulted back in time, he found himself in a universe that had already been altered by his abilities (much like the White Event did the New Universe).

These changes went as further back as Timewalker #0, the earliest VALIANT story (which takes place in the past but also involves one individual from the future and Spider-Aliens(!)).

Even before Phil stopped his VH-1 counterpart, the universe was already different. Geomancers, immortals, and Harbingers/psiots already existed.

I posit that, like the reactor changing him , this too was an unconscious act informed by his childhood fantasies informed by comic books and other forms of pop culture.

I once wrote a fanfic in which during his isolation Phil watched James Bond, Ninja, and Highlander movies, which would be the inspiration behind the existence of characters like Ninjak and the Eternal Warrior.

Which is to say that just like the reactor made his fantasy of of becoming Doctor Solar a reality, his subconscious changed the universe into a reflection of other forms of pop culture he had been exposed to while growing up.

I think that all makes sense as an explanation for Vh1.

The fact that his subconscious altered the entire universe in a non-localized way going both backwards and forwards through time leaves a whole lot of ambiguity that could be used to explain away just about anything.

To me that makes Vh1 'softer' sci-fi than New U's White Event. Despite that I still prefer Valiant, 'hard' sci-fi can go too far and lose the fun imo.

That also makes it possible that since things that once were fiction like Doctor Solar, Magnus, Turok, Highlander, etc. are manifesting as reality in the Valiant universe at different periods throughout time, then other things like Predators, Iron Man, Cosmic Cube, etc. could also be manifesting in the Valiant universe due to Phil's altering of the universe.

In that interpretation, they might not even be the 'real' Marvel characters, just a reflection from Phil's subconscious imagination. That could also explain Deathmate, even though he hadn't read Image, the Image characters are mostly just analogs of Marvel/DC characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

If we look at Solar as VALIANT's version of the New Universe's White Event, explaining the origin behind immortals, Harbingers/psiots, Geomancers, Spider-Aliens, and even British ninja spies becomes much simpler.

Let us accept for a moment that the experimental fusion reactor Phil Seleski of VH-0 built was in effect a form of advanced technology indistinguishable from magic (using the established fact that it took Erica Pierce two thousand years to replicate Phil's reactor, it can be argued that he possessed the know-how and intellect to build 41st Century technology in the 20th Century).

Let us further accept for the same moment that what the reactor did was change Phil's "phase space condition" from his being a normal human being to becoming a man of the atom (likewise for Erica).

It wasn't because he wished it so, even though that is how he interpreted it, but because that was the reactor's function.

Either way, the end result was entirely an unconscious act on his part, in that while Phil built the reactor and wished it would transform him into his favorite childhood superhero, he didn't actually do anything to achieve that desired result, other than turn the reactor on.

When applying all of that to the overall VALIANT Universe, the argument can be made that once Phil became Solar HE gained the power to change the "phase space condition" or individuals or the entire universe, either consciously OR unconsciously.

What that would mean is that when Phil was catapulted back in time, he found himself in a universe that had already been altered by his abilities (much like the White Event did the New Universe).

These changes went as further back as Timewalker #0, the earliest VALIANT story (which takes place in the past but also involves one individual from the future and Spider-Aliens(!)).

Even before Phil stopped his VH-1 counterpart, the universe was already different. Geomancers, immortals, and Harbingers/psiots already existed.

I posit that, like the reactor changing him , this too was an unconscious act informed by his childhood fantasies informed by comic books and other forms of pop culture.

I once wrote a fanfic in which during his isolation Phil watched James Bond, Ninja, and Highlander movies, which would be the inspiration behind the existence of characters like Ninjak and the Eternal Warrior.

Which is to say that just like the reactor made his fantasy of of becoming Doctor Solar a reality, his subconscious changed the universe into a reflection of other forms of pop culture he had been exposed to while growing up.

I think that all makes sense as an explanation for Vh1.

The fact that his subconscious altered the entire universe in a non-localized way going both backwards and forwards through time leaves a whole lot of ambiguity that could be used to explain away just about anything.

To me that makes Vh1 'softer' sci-fi than New U's White Event. Despite that I still prefer Valiant, 'hard' sci-fi can go too far and lose the fun imo.

That also makes it possible that since things that once were fiction like Doctor Solar, Magnus, Turok, Highlander, etc. are manifesting as reality in the Valiant universe at different periods throughout time, then other things like Predators, Iron Man, Cosmic Cube, etc. could also be manifesting in the Valiant universe due to Phil's altering of the universe.

In that interpretation, they might not even be the 'real' Marvel characters, just a reflection from Phil's subconscious imagination. That could also explain Deathmate, even though he hadn't read Image, the Image characters are mostly just analogs of Marvel/DC characters.

Exactly.

The Explorer would posses the same ability as Phil to change the phase state condition of the universe, hence how he conjured up Void.

[Ryan]

Exactly.

The Explorer would posses the same ability as Phil to change the phase state condition of the universe, hence how he conjured up Void.

That makes sense.

There's also the idea that since Harbingers and other 'anomalies' seemed to be very rare in the thousands of years before 1990, and then a sudden spike in activity after, that the presence of Solar/Phil in the world made these fantastical elements multiply exponentially in frequency.

Which is what Erica was trying to fix in Unity.

This would also explain why post-Unity/BQ/Vh2 continue to get more 'comic-booky' and farther away from science as we know it. That was a lot of the premise behind U2K.

The question then becomes is it going to matter in the new iterations of Valiant or the Vh1 characters? With Solar being the linchpin of the entire Universe, it being his 'dream' essentially, what to do without Solar? There's lots of ways it could be dealt with