VH-2 invalidated

[ManofTheAtom]

How so?

What I mean by rules-light is that there isn't a strong, overriding editorial mandated overstory and editorial style that every book must write to and follow closely.

The rules-light approach will give you more flexibility and ability to attract bigger name creators because you can give them more creative freedom.

For example, look at Justin Jordan's Shadowman. Nothing about it seems to be written to flow out of the already established VEI world from the previous books. It looks like he was just given the broad outline of the character (Vh2 version) and told to come up with whatever he liked.

Same thing with Garth Ennis' version. It wasn't created to fit in with the other titles or the broader 'universe', just do your best to come up with a cool new premise for a character called Shadowman.

On the other end of the spectrum is pre-Unity Valiant. Strong editorial mandates on the style of storytelling, and a strong central story and set of rules that every book had to follow closely. That's why even when Shooter hired Englehart to write some of the books he would end up having to re-write a bunch of it to match the style better.

I'm not saying the pre-Unity is approach is sustainable or healthy, just pointing out the different approaches that were used.

Jordan's Shadowman was definitely not my favorite run on the series or VEI reboot.

I wouldn't use it to judge the whole, though.

[Ryan]

Jordan's Shadowman was definitely not my favorite run on the series or VEI reboot.

I wouldn't use it to judge the whole, though.

I'm not judging the whole, I'm not even making a value judgement of VEI Shadowman on whether it was a good or bad book. I'm just pointing it out as an example to show what the VEI editorial approach to world building was.

Plenty of good comics can be made using this world building approach. It's just different from what pre-Unity did.

[ManofTheAtom]

Jordan's Shadowman was definitely not my favorite run on the series or VEI reboot.

I wouldn't use it to judge the whole, though.

I'm not judging the whole, I'm not even making a value judgement of VEI Shadowman on whether it was a good or bad book. I'm just pointing it out as an example to show what the VEI editorial approach to world building was.

Plenty of good comics can be made using this world building approach. It's just different from what pre-Unity did.

I think this is more a question of tone than world building per se.

The world in which Jack lived was very much the one outside our window, even if the overall tone wasn't as grounded as it could have been. That was one of my major problems with it. It felt half-assed, to be honest.

I know Jordan is not a real world type of writer. We connected for a while on Facebook and whenever I said anything positive about Man of Steel or Batman v Superman he'd lash out against it, particularly when I'd praise them for presenting a more grounded version of Superman as opposed to the cartoony one played by Reeve.

[Ryan]

Use Kindt's Rai as another example. It seems like it was future Japan developed completely from scratch loosely using some of the concepts of the original Rai(s).

It didn't seem like any of it flowed out of what was being developed in the 'present day' VEI books. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I haven't read any of those in some time.

[Ryan]

I think this is more a question of tone than world building per se.

The world in which Jack lived was very much the one outside our window, even if the overall tone wasn't as grounded as it could have been. That was one of my major problems with it. It felt half-assed, to be honest.

I know Jordan is not a real world type of writer. We connected for a while on Facebook and whenever I said anything positive about Man of Steel or Batman v Superman he'd lash out against it, particularly when I'd praise them for presenting a more grounded version of Superman as opposed to the cartoony one played by Reeve.

But what about his Shadowman related or came out of the overall VEI story from the other books? Did Jack's powers come from something that was part of what had been established? Had Deadside been an integral part of the development of the previous titles?

None of it did. It was all independently created within its own world, not tied to or building on with the overall world building. That's what I mean.

More of the Image style, creator owned style of every book is created as its own independent world with its own reason for how things are, and then try to tie it all in together later. Just a different approach than Pre-U.

[Ryan]

The plus side of that approach is that it gives creators total freedom to come up with what they think is best. Which is what most creators want, and so in theory you should be getting their best work.

[ManofTheAtom]

Use Kindt's Rai as another example. It seems like it was future Japan developed completely from scratch loosely using some of the concepts of the original Rai(s).

It didn't seem like any of it flowed out of what was being developed in the 'present day' VEI books. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I haven't read any of those in some time.

I haven't either, but I do recall there being strong connections between the two.

The first VEI Rai series was awesome. Great world building and great tone.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think this is more a question of tone than world building per se.

The world in which Jack lived was very much the one outside our window, even if the overall tone wasn't as grounded as it could have been. That was one of my major problems with it. It felt half-assed, to be honest.

I know Jordan is not a real world type of writer. We connected for a while on Facebook and whenever I said anything positive about Man of Steel or Batman v Superman he'd lash out against it, particularly when I'd praise them for presenting a more grounded version of Superman as opposed to the cartoony one played by Reeve.

But what about his Shadowman related or came out of the overall VEI story from the other books? Did Jack's powers come from something that was part of what had been established? Had Deadside been an integral part of the development of the previous titles?

None of it did. It was all independently created within its own world, not tied to or building on with the overall world building. That's what I mean.

More of the Image style, creator owned style of every book is created as its own independent world with its own reason for how things are, and then try to tie it all in together later. Just a different approach than Pre-U.

You're talking about Lydia bite and such. That wasn't necessary in the VEI version, though.

That's like asking what from other VALIANT series connected to the X-O Manowar armor or Aric's abduction, etc.

I can say this when it comes to the world building and connections and such in VEI, and I'm free to do it because Dinesh gave me permission to long ago and it has been mentioned before on Facebook and, I believe, here.

Gilad's inclusion in X-O Manowar Vol. 3 #1 was my suggestion. It was inspired by their animosity in VH-1.

Now, I somewhat contend that they actually did it because I suggested it mainly because when it came to the world building Dinesh and I were on the same wavelength on things, but when I asked him about it long, long ago he reiterated to me that it was because I suggested it.

I still, to this day, am hesitant to take absolute credit for it, but whether it was or it wasn't the point is that he is there for that purpose, to enhance the connection between the different titles as part of the world building.

I can say with absolute certainty that I suggested that Mary-Maria give Archer a journal to write it, also as a callback to the VH-1 original.

I'm not sure you're giving Dinesh the credit he deserves with the work he did to build the reboot. It wasn't like a free for all, every writer for themselves.

[ManofTheAtom]

The plus side of that approach is that it gives creators total freedom to come up with what they think is best. Which is what most creators want, and so in theory you should be getting their best work.

It doesn't always work, like with Birthquake and VH-2.

[Ryan]

The plus side of that approach is that it gives creators total freedom to come up with what they think is best. Which is what most creators want, and so in theory you should be getting their best work.

It doesn't always work, like with Birthquake and VH-2.

Definitely, neither approach always works. There can be great creator-driven comic universes and horrible editor-driven comic universes. Or the other way around. Editorial approach alone doesn’t make it good or bad.

Which is the point I'm trying to make about VEI. It's not a value judgment about their comics to say they leaned toward more individual creator-driven world building.

Obviously there were still connections between the books and characters, it's still a shared universe after all. As were Birthquake and VH2.

[ManofTheAtom]

The plus side of that approach is that it gives creators total freedom to come up with what they think is best. Which is what most creators want, and so in theory you should be getting their best work.

It doesn't always work, like with Birthquake and VH-2.

Definitely, neither approach always works. There can be great creator-driven comic universes and horrible editor-driven comic universes. Or the other way around. Editorial approach alone doesn’t make it good or bad.

Which is the point I'm trying to make about VEI. It's not a value judgment about their comics to say they leaned toward more individual creator-driven world building.

Obviously there were still connections between the books and characters, it's still a shared universe after all. As were Birthquake and VH2.

Like I said, I don't think it was every creator for themselves.

For instance, look at how they connected Bloodshot to Harbinger by making him a Harbinger hunter.

[Ryan]

Like I said, I don't think it was every creator for themselves.

For instance, look at how they connected Bloodshot to Harbinger by making him a Harbinger hunter.

I'm not saying it was 'every creator for themselves'. Of course there was connection, it was a shared universe and the creators were hired to create their stories within the universe.

It's a matter of degree of connection between the stories. Was there a strict set of rules all the books followed? Was there a clear origin story or overarcing story that connected all the characters? Was there a unified sense of storytelling style (art, layout, design) between the books?

You're the one claiming that a Valiant comic is only 'validated' if its following the strict set of rules followed by pre-Unity.

I'm just saying that the vast majority of the comics after Unity didn't follow those rules, or any strict rules at all. But that shouldn't invalidate them, there's a lot of good comics in there, and maybe a lot of not-so-good comics too, but its all Valiant at this point.

[ManofTheAtom]

Like I said, I don't think it was every creator for themselves.

For instance, look at how they connected Bloodshot to Harbinger by making him a Harbinger hunter.

I'm not saying it was 'every creator for themselves'. Of course there was connection, it was a shared universe and the creators were hired to create their stories within the universe.

It's a matter of degree of connection between the stories. Was there a strict set of rules all the books followed? Was there a clear origin story or overarcing story that connected all the characters? Was there a unified sense of storytelling style (art, layout, design) between the books?

You're the one claiming that a Valiant comic is only 'validated' if its following the strict set of rules followed by pre-Unity.

I'm just saying that the vast majority of the comics after Unity didn't follow those rules, or any strict rules at all. But that shouldn't invalidate them, there's a lot of good comics in there, and maybe a lot of not-so-good comics too, but its all Valiant at this point.

Some were better than others. The ones that weren't veered too far away from the original identity of the VALIANT Universe and became clones of DC and Marvel comics.

The goal should be to re-conceptualize them to make them work within the guidelines of the VALIANT Universe, such as that X-O Manowar could not have met Iron Man because the Marvel Universe was established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe several times before they did.

[Ryan]

Some were better than others. The ones that weren't veered too far away from the original identity of the VALIANT Universe and became clones of DC and Marvel comics.

I get that, there's a lot of things I would ignore. I don't see any need for the different versions to meet or interact. Just keep them in their separate universes.

[ManofTheAtom]

Some were better than others. The ones that weren't veered too far away from the original identity of the VALIANT Universe and became clones of DC and Marvel comics.

I get that, there's a lot of things I would ignore. I don't see any need for the different versions to meet or interact. Just keep them in their separate universes.

A better version of Unity 2000 that isn't like Crisis on Infinite Earths that actually addresses the differences between the universes would be fantastic, though. Giving VH-1 priority.

[Ryan]

The goal should be to re-conceptualize them to make them work within the guidelines of the VALIANT Universe, such as that X-O Manowar could not have met Iron Man because the Marvel Universe was established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe several times before they did.

I don't think anything from VH2 would have to be used, VEI already incorporated a lot from VH2, like Q&W who are basically the same (I think).

So really all there would have to be are 2 universes, classic and modern.

[Ryan]

Some were better than others. The ones that weren't veered too far away from the original identity of the VALIANT Universe and became clones of DC and Marvel comics.

I get that, there's a lot of things I would ignore. I don't see any need for the different versions to meet or interact. Just keep them in their separate universes.

A better version of Unity 2000 that isn't like Crisis on Infinite Earths that actually addresses the differences between the universes would be fantastic, though. Giving VH-1 priority.

Sure an event like that could be done well. Will it be? I don't think I have trust that it will be based on what we've seen.

[ManofTheAtom]

The goal should be to re-conceptualize them to make them work within the guidelines of the VALIANT Universe, such as that X-O Manowar could not have met Iron Man because the Marvel Universe was established as being fictional in the VALIANT Universe several times before they did.

I don't think anything from VH2 would have to be used, VEI already incorporated a lot from VH2, like Q&W who are basically the same (I think).

So really all there would have to be are 2 universes, classic and modern.

I think Troublemakers and Trinity Angels have potential too if done right. And some ideas from the reboots could work too.

Rand Banion, Donovan Wiley, Renata, etc could certainly become characters in an X-O Manowar series, just NOT as X-Os themselves. Rand can be a soldier and Rand can be a video game designers that get caught up in Aric's orbit and such.

[ManofTheAtom]

Some were better than others. The ones that weren't veered too far away from the original identity of the VALIANT Universe and became clones of DC and Marvel comics.

I get that, there's a lot of things I would ignore. I don't see any need for the different versions to meet or interact. Just keep them in their separate universes.

A better version of Unity 2000 that isn't like Crisis on Infinite Earths that actually addresses the differences between the universes would be fantastic, though. Giving VH-1 priority.

Sure an event like that could be done well. Will it be? I don't think I have trust that it will be based on what we've seen.

Based on what Alien has done, I think they could do it right.

[Ryan]

I think Troublemakers and Trinity Angels have potential too if done right. And some ideas from the reboots could work too.

Rand Banion, Donovan Wiley, Renata, etc could certainly become characters in an X-O Manowar series, just NOT as X-Os themselves. Rand can be a soldier and Rand can be a video game designers that get caught up in Aric's orbit and such.

See I knew you were a VH2 fan

Based on what Alien has done, I think they could do it right.

I guess we're all going to find out soon enough.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think Troublemakers and Trinity Angels have potential too if done right. And some ideas from the reboots could work too.

Rand Banion, Donovan Wiley, Renata, etc could certainly become characters in an X-O Manowar series, just NOT as X-Os themselves. Rand can be a soldier and Rand can be a video game designers that get caught up in Aric's orbit and such.

See I knew you were a VH2 fan

Based on what Alien has done, I think they could do it right.

I guess we're all going to find out soon enough.

I just see the potential. If done right, those characters can work at VALIANT.

[ManofTheAtom]

If VH-1 characters could be reimagined to fit Nicieza's Silver Age DC-inspired VH-2 reboot, then VH-2 characters and similarly be reimagined to fit Shooter's Silver Age Marvel-inspired VALIANT.

[Ryan]

If VH-1 characters could be reimagined to fit Nicieza's Silver Age DC-inspired VH-2 reboot, then VH-2 characters and similarly be reimagined to fit Shooter's Silver Age Marvel-inspired VALIANT.

Of course it could be done. I've always thought Zero (Michael Leroi) would have been a cool supporting character in Vh1's Shadowman.

Have his Harbinger power be that he can perceive another dimension of reality (like sub-space from Magnus or like Unreality from Solar), and he interprets this other dimension as a place he calls Deadside.

That way Deadside isn't a literal Hell, just a name for how he's able perceive a different frequency of reality.

[ManofTheAtom]

If VH-1 characters could be reimagined to fit Nicieza's Silver Age DC-inspired VH-2 reboot, then VH-2 characters and similarly be reimagined to fit Shooter's Silver Age Marvel-inspired VALIANT.

Of course it could be done. I've always thought Zero (Michael Leroi) would have been a cool supporting character in Vh1's Shadowman.

Have his Harbinger power be that he can perceive another dimension of reality (like sub-space from Magnus or like Unreality from Solar), and he interprets this other dimension as a place he calls Deadside.

That way Deadside isn't a literal Hell, just a name for how he's able perceive a different frequency of reality.

Indeead.

[leonmallett]

And do you understand that the point of VALIANT was to lean more toward one side than the other?

It's as I've asked you before, what is it that you want to see back from VH-1, the artistic renditions of the '90s VALIANT characters or the level of writing of the Pre-Unity comics?

Unity 2000 leaned toward the side of soft science fiction as a consequence of having to deal with all the VALIANT Universe as a whole turning into a replica of DC and Marvel.

Had it instead continued to adhere to the foundation of the original VALIANT Universe it would have been something entirely different.

Why not both?

They could have returned to pre-Unity level of writing any time they wanted to, it doesn't require using any specific iterations of the characters. But they either don't want to or don't know how to.

If you want the level of writing, that means adhering to the ideas of strong continuity, hard science, etc, and that Marvel characters are fictional.

I believe that the point of contention between you and me on this topic is that you want to wave the proverbial magic wand to just outright ignore everything that happened at VALIANT as if it never happened, whereas I want to outright address it within the story using the rules of the VALIANT Universe established before Shooter's departure.

Please stop wilfully and liberally misusing the phrase 'hard science'; hard science is based in fact and evidence not in speculative and/or fantastical fiction, or 'what could be'. Necromantic energy is not hard science, nor are various other VH1 and later fantasy science elements. Hard science is a phrase you use as a crutch, but in the context of VH1 is has no real meaning as stories featuring mental powers etc are not, never were, and never will be hard science.