VH-2 invalidated

[ManofTheAtom]

Far as I know they are their personal pages. I've been connected to Jackson and Vanhook there for a LONG time, and Shooter recently accepted my friend request.

That looks interesting, but I think the finished version worked out better, heh.

That's interesting because that's the split when the 'Marvelization' of Valiant really began. No more real-time, no more 'hard science', casual time travel, necromantic magic, etc. etc.

Your theory is that VH2 is when Valiant stopped being Valiant and became something else because it stopped following rules, I'm saying if that's the criteria for invalidating parts of Valiant history, then it should really begin right there at post-Unity.

There was nothing casual about time travel after Shooter, though.

Ivar messed up with certain people by dragging them away from their eras, but, usually, others that followed him through an arc died because only an immortal can withstand the stress they inflict on the body.

When Shadowman did it it wasn't as easy as it happens at Marvel either.

Time travel existed during Shooter's time, we saw it several times.

As stated in Unity 2000, necromantic energy is just another form of energy.

[Ryan]

Time travel existed during Shooter's time, we saw it several times.

Several? I can only think of one, and that altered the very fabric of existence. What other instances of time travel were there in pre-Unity?

How does Deathmate fit into your theory of post-Unity hard science and there being only one reality? Is the Image universe part of the Valiant universe then? Are the Image characters just transformed energy or what?

[ManofTheAtom]

Time travel existed during Shooter's time, we saw it several times.

Several? I can only think of one, and that altered the very fabric of existence. What other instances of time travel were there in pre-Unity?

How does Deathmate fit into your theory of post-Unity hard science and there being only one reality? Is the Image universe part of the Valiant universe then? Are the Image characters just transformed energy or what?

Phil and Erica would be the two most obvious ones, and they're enough.

In Deathmate, the only reason the two realities collided was because the Explorer met Void in Unreality.

Clearly, that acts as a bridge between their two universes.

What IS Unreality?

Let us consider the possibility that even though the Explorer was free of his longing for Gayle he nonetheless inadvertently conjured up a version of Void made up entirely by own imagination that Unreality gave form because there was nothing there to block his random thoughts.

That is to say, she was not the "real" Void, she was something he imagined and Unreality conjured up, same for the rest of the Image Universe. That might explain the absence of Savage Dragon and other characters whose creators didn't want to participate in the crossover.

[ManofTheAtom]

When the Explorer enters Unreality he is thinking about finding love and, boom, he finds it?

It cannot be a coincidence in a place where thoughts are unprotected and anything one imagines can come true.

[Ryan]

Phil and Erica would be the two most obvious ones, and they're enough.

So really just one instance of time travel that fundamentally altered the nature of their universe. Much different than the 'rules' of post-Unity.

In Deathmate, the only reason the two realities collided was because the Explorer met Void in Unreality.

Clearly, that acts as a bridge between their two universes.

Hard science, amirite? Two realities and two universes. Hmm. But yet VH2 is invalidated because its a separate reality/universe and those aren't allowed under the 'rules'? Make it make sense.

[ManofTheAtom]

Phil and Erica would be the two most obvious ones, and they're enough.

So really just one instance of time travel that fundamentally altered the nature of their universe. Much different than the 'rules' of post-Unity.

In Deathmate, the only reason the two realities collided was because the Explorer met Void in Unreality.

Clearly, that acts as a bridge between their two universes.

Hard science, amirite? Two realities and two universes. Hmm. But yet VH2 is invalidated because its a separate reality/universe and those aren't allowed under the 'rules'? Make it make sense.

Keep reading. I go on to propose that the Image Universe we saw in Deathmate may not have existed at all, it may have been conjured up by the Explorer. Though, unlike when Phil conjured up Solar, this would have been done by Unreality itself.

He imagined Void, and from there an entirely new universe contained within Unreality came into existence.

[Ryan]

Phil and Erica would be the two most obvious ones, and they're enough.

So really just one instance of time travel that fundamentally altered the nature of their universe. Much different than the 'rules' of post-Unity.

In Deathmate, the only reason the two realities collided was because the Explorer met Void in Unreality.

Clearly, that acts as a bridge between their two universes.

Hard science, amirite? Two realities and two universes. Hmm. But yet VH2 is invalidated because its a separate reality/universe and those aren't allowed under the 'rules'? Make it make sense.

Keep reading. I go on to propose that the Image Universe we saw in Deathmate may not have existed at all, it may have been conjured up by the Explorer. Though, unlike when Phil conjured up Solar, this would have been done by Unreality itself.

He imagined Void, and from there an entirely new universe contained within Unreality came into existence.

Cool, you have an elaborate head canon to explain any time your head canon gets contradicted.

None of it invalidates Vh2, U2k, VEI, etc. for the rest of us. Those are all Valiant comics part of the overall Valiant story.

[ManofTheAtom]

Phil and Erica would be the two most obvious ones, and they're enough.

So really just one instance of time travel that fundamentally altered the nature of their universe. Much different than the 'rules' of post-Unity.

In Deathmate, the only reason the two realities collided was because the Explorer met Void in Unreality.

Clearly, that acts as a bridge between their two universes.

Hard science, amirite? Two realities and two universes. Hmm. But yet VH2 is invalidated because its a separate reality/universe and those aren't allowed under the 'rules'? Make it make sense.

Keep reading. I go on to propose that the Image Universe we saw in Deathmate may not have existed at all, it may have been conjured up by the Explorer. Though, unlike when Phil conjured up Solar, this would have been done by Unreality itself.

He imagined Void, and from there an entirely new universe contained within Unreality came into existence.

Cool, you have an elaborate head canon to explain any time your head canon gets contradicted.

None of it invalidates Vh2, U2k, VEI, etc. for the rest of us. Those are all Valiant comics part of the overall Valiant story.

If you conceptualize them through the rules of the VALIANT Universe, you can easily explain them away without using the cliche concepts from DC and Marvel like multiverses. That's a considerably easy cheat, like when Lucy Lawless tells Professor Frink that anytime he sees a mistake on Xena "a wizard did it".

[syzhang28]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

Resorting to name calling (again, isnt that why you were banned...and also just banned from the facebook group?) because you have no logical retort. You're approach is myopic, unimaginative and boring. Deadly sins of any story.

[Ryan]

Resorting to name calling (again, isnt that why you were banned...and also just banned from the facebook group?) because you have no logical retort. You're approach is myopic, unimaginative and boring. Deadly sins of any story.

At the end of the day, that's what matters, is it a good story? They're still commercial comics that are produced for the purpose of entertainment and selling copies.

Any story that has to start with lengthy, far-fetched explanations of the minutia from obscure parts Valiant history that even most hardcore fans don't remember doesn't sound like a good story.

[ManofTheAtom]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

Resorting to name calling (again, isnt that why you were banned...and also just banned from the facebook group?) because you have no logical retort. You're approach is myopic, unimaginative and boring. Deadly sins of any story.

I was not banned from the Facebook group, I left after they limited my ability to post.

Don't whine because you're upset that I turned your aggressive post back on you.

[ManofTheAtom]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

A rational person would have been able to stay on topic and either admit that there is no evidence of VALIANT characters ever watching a Predator movie or read a Predator comic or, magically, been able to produce proof that they have. THAT would have allowed for the momentum of a civilized conversation to continue.

A demented person crafts an aggressive response about buutholes and then whines when it is thrown back at them.

[ManofTheAtom]

Assuming that Predators are automatically fictional in the VALIANT Universe just because they are in the real world makes a -- butthole out of people...

[Ryan]

But there doesn't seem to be much interest on here for those answers anymore, and I don't have the resources or connections myself to get those interviews or get that material.

Try Facebook. Connect with Shooter and Jackson on there. Vanhook too.

The other one I would like to talk to is Tim Truman. He seemed to be the one planting the seeds for whatever event was building in the Lost Land, some kind of Unity 2. It would be interesting to know what the plans were for that and if it tied in to any '1999 event' plans that were formulating.

[syzhang28]

like i said before. Predators are real in valiant. Case closed.

Prove it.

All you have to do is show any VALIANT character watching a Predator movie or reading a Predator comic.

It shouldn't be that difficult for you to do.

Anything not shown in Valiant doesn't exist? What about buttholes? Does no one have a butthole in Valiant? Hardly an adherence to real world science. But I guess based on the doctrine of MOTA buttholes must not exists since no one is ever shown to have one.

This board definitely has a butthole and that'd be you...

Resorting to name calling (again, isnt that why you were banned...and also just banned from the facebook group?) because you have no logical retort. You're approach is myopic, unimaginative and boring. Deadly sins of any story.

I was not banned from the Facebook group, I left after they limited my ability to post.

Don't whine because you're upset that I turned your aggressive post back on you.

Literally describing being banned here. The self owns are wonderful

[syzhang28]

Assuming that Predators are automatically fictional in the VALIANT Universe just because they are in the real world makes a -- butthole out of people...

Only thing more wonderful is the pretzel of logic that takes you to Predators are defacto real so you can keep dick riding Shooter

[ManofTheAtom]

But there doesn't seem to be much interest on here for those answers anymore, and I don't have the resources or connections myself to get those interviews or get that material.

Try Facebook. Connect with Shooter and Jackson on there. Vanhook too.

The other one I would like to talk to is Tim Truman. He seemed to be the one planting the seeds for whatever event was building in the Lost Land, some kind of Unity 2. It would be interesting to know what the plans were for that and if it tied in to any '1999 event' plans that were formulating.

It would be interesting.

[ManofTheAtom]

Assuming that Predators are automatically fictional in the VALIANT Universe just because they are in the real world makes a -- butthole out of people...

Only thing more wonderful is the pretzel of logic that takes you to Predators are defacto real so you can keep dick riding Shooter

All you had to do was prove that they're fictional. I honestly thought that it be easy for you to realize you can't, but instead of being mature about it you decided to make it about buttholes. Pretty much literally acting like a child.

download.jpg

[Ryan]

Buddhists would say that all these worlds are every bit as real as VH1 on some level - even made-up worlds like VH2, Marvel, and this one we are in now.

I missed this comment, but very true. Once Buddhist, Hindu, and other theories of the universe are considered there's a lot more possibilities. Not to say there isn't a lot of truth in the Western science approach, but at best it can only achieve a very partial (microscopic?) conception of the universe at this time.

[syzhang28]

Assuming that Predators are automatically fictional in the VALIANT Universe just because they are in the real world makes a -- butthole out of people...

Only thing more wonderful is the pretzel of logic that takes you to Predators are defacto real so you can keep dick riding Shooter

All you had to do was prove that they're fictional. I honestly thought that it be easy for you to realize you can't, but instead of being mature about it you decided to make it about buttholes. Pretty much literally acting like a child.

download.jpg

Another hilarious self own.

Movies exist in Valiant (Faith even talks about the star of the first Predator's other film, Terminator) therefore Predator movies exist. Done. Proved. Burden is on you to prove my Terminator movies exist but other Arnold movies magically don't.

You may giggle at anatomy like buttholes but despite the words ability to distract the low IQ set it describes a very real thing that we never see yet we all know exists.

[Ryan]

That looks interesting, but I think the finished version worked out better, heh.

I like the VH1 character of Bloodshot and what VanHook did with him. We don't know how Shooter's version would have compared, but that's not the point I'm talking about.

It's about the scientific, credible science fiction approach of Vh1 and when that changed. Just compare the 2 concepts.

Rising Spirit aka Rai the First - No super powers, master of all types of weapons. One could assume that whatever mental powers he developed were going to lead to the Rai powers we saw in the OG Rai - mentally creating weapons through the power of focus. Shooter has said many times he wanted all Valiant powers to be "Powers of the Mind".

Bloodshot - A mobster who is also a Harbinger that has the power the control all machines (similar to Ax's power), who also just so happens to randomly be chosen for a mysterious super soldier program that injects him with nano-computer blood. This blood also happens to be such a rare creation that it can't ever be duplicated in 2000 years despite massive advancements in robotics technology and the presence of thousands (millions?) of Harbingers.

It's obvious one of these concepts was trying to make a more grounded, realistic approach to a "butt kicking" character, while the other one is much more in the realm of sci-fi fantasy aka Marvel/DC.

There's a lot of post-Unity that I like, but it definitely doesn't all hold up as one airtight, hard sci-fi universe.

[ManofTheAtom]

That looks interesting, but I think the finished version worked out better, heh.

I like the VH1 character of Bloodshot and what VanHook did with him. We don't know how Shooter's version would have compared, but that's not the point I'm talking about.

It's about the scientific, credible science fiction approach of Vh1 and when that changed. Just compare the 2 concepts.

Rising Spirit aka Rai the First - No super powers, master of all types of weapons. One could assume that whatever mental powers he developed were going to lead to the Rai powers we saw in the OG Rai - mentally creating weapons through the power of focus. Shooter has said many times he wanted all Valiant powers to be "Powers of the Mind".

Bloodshot - A mobster who is also a Harbinger that has the power the control all machines (similar to Ax's power), who also just so happens to randomly be chosen for a mysterious super soldier program that injects him with nano-computer blood. This blood also happens to be such a rare creation that it can't ever be duplicated in 2000 years despite massive advancements in robotics technology and the presence of thousands (millions?) of Harbingers.

It's obvious one of these concepts was trying to make a more grounded, realistic approach to a "butt kicking" character, while the other one is much more in the realm of sci-fi fantasy aka Marvel/DC.

There's a lot of post-Unity that I like, but it definitely doesn't all hold up as one airtight, hard sci-fi universe.

Fantasy doesn't enter into it, though.

Fantasy is Lord of the Rings. Science Fiction is Star Trek.

VALIANT was the latter.

As for which version might have been better, I can't say because I don't know that much about Shooter's original concept.

[ManofTheAtom]

Assuming that Predators are automatically fictional in the VALIANT Universe just because they are in the real world makes a -- butthole out of people...

Only thing more wonderful is the pretzel of logic that takes you to Predators are defacto real so you can keep dick riding Shooter

All you had to do was prove that they're fictional. I honestly thought that it be easy for you to realize you can't, but instead of being mature about it you decided to make it about buttholes. Pretty much literally acting like a child.

download.jpg

Another hilarious self own.

Movies exist in Valiant (Faith even talks about the star of the first Predator's other film, Terminator) therefore Predator movies exist. Done. Proved. Burden is on you to prove my Terminator movies exist but other Arnold movies magically don't.

You may giggle at anatomy like buttholes but despite the words ability to distract the low IQ set it describes a very real thing that we never see yet we all know exists.

ManofTheAtom: "Can you prove that Predator movies exist in the VALIANT Universe?"

syzhang28: "I can prove that Terminator movies exist in the VALIANT Universe."

ManofTheAtom: "That's not the same as Predator movies."

syzhang28: "Er..."

ManofTheAtom: "Yes?"

syzhang28: "NO ONE IN THE VALIANT UNIVERSE HAS BUTTHOLES!"

[ManofTheAtom]

When I said that it shouldn't be difficult to prove or disprove that Predators are or aren't fictional in the VALIANT Universe I TRULY believed it wouldn't be.

I didn't consider that the conversation would deviate into discussing whether or not VALIANT characters have *SQUEE* or not, but here we are...

[Chiclo]

That looks interesting, but I think the finished version worked out better, heh.

I like the VH1 character of Bloodshot and what VanHook did with him. We don't know how Shooter's version would have compared, but that's not the point I'm talking about.

It's about the scientific, credible science fiction approach of Vh1 and when that changed. Just compare the 2 concepts.

Rising Spirit aka Rai the First - No super powers, master of all types of weapons. One could assume that whatever mental powers he developed were going to lead to the Rai powers we saw in the OG Rai - mentally creating weapons through the power of focus. Shooter has said many times he wanted all Valiant powers to be "Powers of the Mind".

Bloodshot - A mobster who is also a Harbinger that has the power the control all machines (similar to Ax's power), who also just so happens to randomly be chosen for a mysterious super soldier program that injects him with nano-computer blood. This blood also happens to be such a rare creation that it can't ever be duplicated in 2000 years despite massive advancements in robotics technology and the presence of thousands (millions?) of Harbingers.

It's obvious one of these concepts was trying to make a more grounded, realistic approach to a "butt kicking" character, while the other one is much more in the realm of sci-fi fantasy aka Marvel/DC.

There's a lot of post-Unity that I like, but it definitely doesn't all hold up as one airtight, hard sci-fi universe.

Fantasy doesn't enter into it, though.

Fantasy is Lord of the Rings. Science Fiction is Star Trek.

VALIANT was the latter.

As for which version might have been better, I can't say because I don't know that much about Shooter's original concept.

Can you define the difference between sci-fi and fantasy? Sci-fi inherently has to have some fantastic elements. Otherwise it becomes just fiction. Star Trek had to use a little bit of fantasy at its best and at its Strange New Worst. Wish granting machines are fantastical. There is no beginning to the first Valiant universe (second? As a continuation of Magnus 4000?) without a little bit of fantasy, no matter how many anti-proton pumps you attach to that wish granting machine.

Sci-fi cannot be totally divorced from fantasy but fantasy can be devoid of sci-fi. Unless Anatar somehow worked microcircuitry into the one ring.