VH 1: The End

[ManofTheAtom]

A great example of *SQUEE* Marvel writing that glosses over things rather that addresses them is Garth Ennis' Punisher, which entirely ignored Frank's return to Earth from Hell after he was executed in the electric chair.

Marvel is a huge mess, to try to make sense of all 60 years of comics taking place in the same continuity would be impossible.

It was an unnecessary contradiction published within the span of a year or less of Frank's return I think.

[Ryan]

One example of why I separate pre-Unity and New Universe from something like VEI is that those 2 offer a single event as an explanation for why their universe has become different from our own, and why there are now super-powered beings. (Solar: Alpha and Omega and The White Event)

That's far from the only reason, but that's a big one.

[Ryan]

Which make those 3 (post-Unity VH1, VH2, and VEI) much more similar to Marvel and the MCU. To circle back.

Not sure about VEI, though.

K, but even if the early VEI could be considered hard sci-fi (which I don't agree with), VEI canon now includes everything from DMG and Alien. So you're prepared to say everything that's been published as VEI canon falls into the stricter category of hard sci-fi (aka science fiction) even though you haven't read it?

It does include it, just like VH 1 canon includes Pre Unity, Post Unity, and Birthquake.

They are all parts of their respective canons.

It may not all fall into the category of hard sci-fi/science fiction. What doesn't, what creates a contradiction, should be explained, not glossed over.

Ok, then you better get all those DMG books so you can start explaining how all the contradictions of the earlier VEI books can fit together in a realistic way, or they might be glossed over. Get ready to bust out a bunch of VR machines and Wish Machines, it's a messy one

I'd love that job...

Honestly, I'd love to see it. We need to start a board project to get MOTA reader copies all of the VEI/DMG books. That would be make for some must-see board posts

[ManofTheAtom]

Not sure about VEI, though.

K, but even if the early VEI could be considered hard sci-fi (which I don't agree with), VEI canon now includes everything from DMG and Alien. So you're prepared to say everything that's been published as VEI canon falls into the stricter category of hard sci-fi (aka science fiction) even though you haven't read it?

It does include it, just like VH 1 canon includes Pre Unity, Post Unity, and Birthquake.

They are all parts of their respective canons.

It may not all fall into the category of hard sci-fi/science fiction. What doesn't, what creates a contradiction, should be explained, not glossed over.

Ok, then you better get all those DMG books so you can start explaining how all the contradictions of the earlier VEI books can fit together in a realistic way, or they might be glossed over. Get ready to bust out a bunch of VR machines and Wish Machines, it's a messy one

I'd love that job...

Honestly, I'd love to see it. We need to start a board project to get MOTA reader copies all of the VEI/DMG books. That would be make for some must-see board posts

Wish I had the time, heh.

Right now I'm working on my own comics. I'm currently figuring out what the solicit copy will be. We're still a long way from publishing but we're laying out what the plots will be for the six year arc we want to tell.

[Ryan]

Wish I had the time, heh.

Right now I'm working on my own comics. I'm currently figuring out what the solicit copy will be. We're still a long way from publishing but we're laying out what the plots will be for the six year arc we want to tell.

Awesome, let the board know when you are ready to publish or crowd fund, can't wait to support and read them

Look at Earthtoneking, he put out a few self-published comics and then got the job writing Ninjak.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wish I had the time, heh.

Right now I'm working on my own comics. I'm currently figuring out what the solicit copy will be. We're still a long way from publishing but we're laying out what the plots will be for the six year arc we want to tell.

Awesome, let the board know when you are ready to publish or crowd fund, can't wait to support and read them

Look at Earthtoneking, he put out a few self-published comics and then got the job writing Ninjak.

Will do.

And that's awesome, good for him!

But for the pandemic we might have already published something by now, but, honestly, it's a good thing we didn't.

Whatever we end up publishing whenever we do will be much better than what we might have published by now.

[Ryan]

Wish I had the time, heh.

Right now I'm working on my own comics. I'm currently figuring out what the solicit copy will be. We're still a long way from publishing but we're laying out what the plots will be for the six year arc we want to tell.

Awesome, let the board know when you are ready to publish or crowd fund, can't wait to support and read them

Look at Earthtoneking, he put out a few self-published comics and then got the job writing Ninjak.

Will do.

And that's awesome, good for him!

But for the pandemic we might have already published something by now, but, honestly, it's a good thing we didn't.

Whatever we end up publishing whenever we do will be much better than what we might have published by now.

Sounds great. Always better to own your own creations anyway. Just like what Dino is doing now.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wish I had the time, heh.

Right now I'm working on my own comics. I'm currently figuring out what the solicit copy will be. We're still a long way from publishing but we're laying out what the plots will be for the six year arc we want to tell.

Awesome, let the board know when you are ready to publish or crowd fund, can't wait to support and read them

Look at Earthtoneking, he put out a few self-published comics and then got the job writing Ninjak.

Will do.

And that's awesome, good for him!

But for the pandemic we might have already published something by now, but, honestly, it's a good thing we didn't.

Whatever we end up publishing whenever we do will be much better than what we might have published by now.

Sounds great. Always better to own your own creations anyway. Just like what Dino is doing now.

Indeed.

[Chiclo]

X-O Manowar has a magic energy sword too.

In both cases, they are a form of advanced technology; Aric's is alien tech, while Rai's is human tech.

Perhaps it is worth differentiating mystic and magic? Mystical items or phenomena can have technical (I hesitate to say scientific) explanations whereas magic can be mystical but still unexplained by technical understanding? Something is mystic when a person or thing can wield power from a supernatural power or higher being (sapient or not), in the presence or absence of a technical explanation. Arthur’s third law as applied here would say that any mystical happening is assumed to have a technical explanation, even if the current limits of understanding do not include that technical explanation.

I look at something like Babylon 5, which showed that the longer a species survives and advances intellectually, both their technology and, even themselves, can evolve to the point of, respectively, becoming indistinguishable from magic and the divine.

It happened to the First Ones and, in time, to humans as seen in the final episode of the fourth season.

Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis covered similar ground with the Ancients/Lanteans.

I think the purpose of the law is to dismiss magic altogether as being a form of advanced technology no matter how undecipherable it may appear to be.

In both B5 and SG-1, modern-day humans eventually deciphered how to operate the seemingly-magical technology left behind by each series' respective ancient species.

The latter LITERALLY had Merlin in it, and even HIS magic was merely advanced technology...

Central themes of both Babylon 5 and Stargate are that mankind meets his gods, confronts those gods and finds them to be no greater than his own potential. The Vorlons and Shadows were older races and more evolved but man matches that degree of evolution in time. In Stargate, mankind’s forgotten gods were scavengers and inheritors to advanced technology but not especially higher than we in any significant way. In both cases, man meets his gods and finds them lacking.

If mankind met their gods and found them true, would that disqualify the work as science-fiction and reduce it to sci-fi or even fantasy in your reckoning? Maybe the Prophets from DS9 would fit this description. Tom Bambodil? 2001?

[ManofTheAtom]

X-O Manowar has a magic energy sword too.

In both cases, they are a form of advanced technology; Aric's is alien tech, while Rai's is human tech.

Perhaps it is worth differentiating mystic and magic? Mystical items or phenomena can have technical (I hesitate to say scientific) explanations whereas magic can be mystical but still unexplained by technical understanding? Something is mystic when a person or thing can wield power from a supernatural power or higher being (sapient or not), in the presence or absence of a technical explanation. Arthur’s third law as applied here would say that any mystical happening is assumed to have a technical explanation, even if the current limits of understanding do not include that technical explanation.

I look at something like Babylon 5, which showed that the longer a species survives and advances intellectually, both their technology and, even themselves, can evolve to the point of, respectively, becoming indistinguishable from magic and the divine.

It happened to the First Ones and, in time, to humans as seen in the final episode of the fourth season.

Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis covered similar ground with the Ancients/Lanteans.

I think the purpose of the law is to dismiss magic altogether as being a form of advanced technology no matter how undecipherable it may appear to be.

In both B5 and SG-1, modern-day humans eventually deciphered how to operate the seemingly-magical technology left behind by each series' respective ancient species.

The latter LITERALLY had Merlin in it, and even HIS magic was merely advanced technology...

Central themes of both Babylon 5 and Stargate are that mankind meets his gods, confronts those gods and finds them to be no greater than his own potential. The Vorlons and Shadows were older races and more evolved but man matches that degree of evolution in time. In Stargate, mankind’s forgotten gods were scavengers and inheritors to advanced technology but not especially higher than we in any significant way. In both cases, man meets his gods and finds them lacking.

If mankind met their gods and found them true, would that disqualify the work as science-fiction and reduce it to sci-fi or even fantasy in your reckoning? Maybe the Prophets from DS9 would fit this description. Tom Bambodil? 2001?

You just described Shooter's version of Solar.

What is his wish machine if not the same kind of science fiction device as the ones the Ancients used in Stargate to evolve, and what are he and Erica if not evolved humans with God-like powers who are both lacking in those roles?

[ManofTheAtom]

Before we get lost on the wrong path, I did not cite Babylon 5 or SG1 to focus on theme, merely as examples of works of science fiction featuring species that survive long enough for their technology to become indistinguishable from magic and even themselves to become indistinguishable from the divine.

[Chiclo]

X-O Manowar has a magic energy sword too.

In both cases, they are a form of advanced technology; Aric's is alien tech, while Rai's is human tech.

Perhaps it is worth differentiating mystic and magic? Mystical items or phenomena can have technical (I hesitate to say scientific) explanations whereas magic can be mystical but still unexplained by technical understanding? Something is mystic when a person or thing can wield power from a supernatural power or higher being (sapient or not), in the presence or absence of a technical explanation. Arthur’s third law as applied here would say that any mystical happening is assumed to have a technical explanation, even if the current limits of understanding do not include that technical explanation.

I look at something like Babylon 5, which showed that the longer a species survives and advances intellectually, both their technology and, even themselves, can evolve to the point of, respectively, becoming indistinguishable from magic and the divine.

It happened to the First Ones and, in time, to humans as seen in the final episode of the fourth season.

Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis covered similar ground with the Ancients/Lanteans.

I think the purpose of the law is to dismiss magic altogether as being a form of advanced technology no matter how undecipherable it may appear to be.

In both B5 and SG-1, modern-day humans eventually deciphered how to operate the seemingly-magical technology left behind by each series' respective ancient species.

The latter LITERALLY had Merlin in it, and even HIS magic was merely advanced technology...

Central themes of both Babylon 5 and Stargate are that mankind meets his gods, confronts those gods and finds them to be no greater than his own potential. The Vorlons and Shadows were older races and more evolved but man matches that degree of evolution in time. In Stargate, mankind’s forgotten gods were scavengers and inheritors to advanced technology but not especially higher than we in any significant way. In both cases, man meets his gods and finds them lacking.

If mankind met their gods and found them true, would that disqualify the work as science-fiction and reduce it to sci-fi or even fantasy in your reckoning? Maybe the Prophets from DS9 would fit this description. Tom Bambodil? 2001?

You just described Shooter's version of Solar.

What is his wish machine if not the same kind of science fiction device as the ones the Ancients used in Stargate to evolve, and what are he and Erica if not evolved humans with God-like powers who are both lacking in those roles?

I have to disagree. What happened to Phil and Erica - this was a fairly unique circumstance and definitely outside of the natural evolution of man (assuming one subscribes to the current evolutionary/long Earth model). Further, neither Phil nor Erica sought this power out. Phil became less comfortable with his new power the more he used it and it ultimately consumed Erica. This is very different from essentially common men venturing forth and finding the gods of their ancestors and finding them wanting.

[ManofTheAtom]

X-O Manowar has a magic energy sword too.

In both cases, they are a form of advanced technology; Aric's is alien tech, while Rai's is human tech.

Perhaps it is worth differentiating mystic and magic? Mystical items or phenomena can have technical (I hesitate to say scientific) explanations whereas magic can be mystical but still unexplained by technical understanding? Something is mystic when a person or thing can wield power from a supernatural power or higher being (sapient or not), in the presence or absence of a technical explanation. Arthur’s third law as applied here would say that any mystical happening is assumed to have a technical explanation, even if the current limits of understanding do not include that technical explanation.

I look at something like Babylon 5, which showed that the longer a species survives and advances intellectually, both their technology and, even themselves, can evolve to the point of, respectively, becoming indistinguishable from magic and the divine.

It happened to the First Ones and, in time, to humans as seen in the final episode of the fourth season.

Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis covered similar ground with the Ancients/Lanteans.

I think the purpose of the law is to dismiss magic altogether as being a form of advanced technology no matter how undecipherable it may appear to be.

In both B5 and SG-1, modern-day humans eventually deciphered how to operate the seemingly-magical technology left behind by each series' respective ancient species.

The latter LITERALLY had Merlin in it, and even HIS magic was merely advanced technology...

Central themes of both Babylon 5 and Stargate are that mankind meets his gods, confronts those gods and finds them to be no greater than his own potential. The Vorlons and Shadows were older races and more evolved but man matches that degree of evolution in time. In Stargate, mankind’s forgotten gods were scavengers and inheritors to advanced technology but not especially higher than we in any significant way. In both cases, man meets his gods and finds them lacking.

If mankind met their gods and found them true, would that disqualify the work as science-fiction and reduce it to sci-fi or even fantasy in your reckoning? Maybe the Prophets from DS9 would fit this description. Tom Bambodil? 2001?

You just described Shooter's version of Solar.

What is his wish machine if not the same kind of science fiction device as the ones the Ancients used in Stargate to evolve, and what are he and Erica if not evolved humans with God-like powers who are both lacking in those roles?

I have to disagree. What happened to Phil and Erica - this was a fairly unique circumstance and definitely outside of the natural evolution of man (assuming one subscribes to the current evolutionary/long Earth model). Further, neither Phil nor Erica sought this power out. Phil became less comfortable with his new power the more he used it and it ultimately consumed Erica. This is very different from essentially common men venturing forth and finding the gods of their ancestors and finding them wanting.

They became the Gods that others found wanting (she called herself Mothergod...).

Phil did seek out the power, he made a "wish machine" to turn himself into his comic book superhero.

[Chiclo]

Precisely. They became gods and other found them lacking. They were not gods from mankind’s past that we rediscover while exploring new worlds.

Phil Seleski did not build the Edgewater reactor to become Dr. Solar. He became powerful and filled in the blanks with a comic book hero. Erica went a different direction. He could just have easily been Phil the Radiation Guy.

[ManofTheAtom]

Precisely. They became gods and other found them lacking. They were not gods from mankind’s past that we rediscover while exploring new worlds.

Phil Seleski did not build the Edgewater reactor to become Dr. Solar. He became powerful and filled in the blanks with a comic book hero. Erica went a different direction. He could just have easily been Phil the Radiation Guy.

Well, he literally declared himself to be Solar, the Polish Sun God from Thor comics I think it was, though...

Hey, there's your establishment that Marvel is fictional at VALIANT...

[Chiclo]

Precisely. They became gods and other found them lacking. They were not gods from mankind’s past that we rediscover while exploring new worlds.

Phil Seleski did not build the Edgewater reactor to become Dr. Solar. He became powerful and filled in the blanks with a comic book hero. Erica went a different direction. He could just have easily been Phil the Radiation Guy.

Well, he literally declared himself to be Solar, the Polish Sun God from Thor comics I think it was, though...

Hey, there's your establishment that Marvel is fictional at VALIANT...

Yeah but so was Dr. Solar and that never really stopped him.

Citation needed on a Thor character called Solar, the Polish Sun God. The Polish comment refers to his family name, Sileski, Polish in origin.

[ManofTheAtom]

Precisely. They became gods and other found them lacking. They were not gods from mankind’s past that we rediscover while exploring new worlds.

Phil Seleski did not build the Edgewater reactor to become Dr. Solar. He became powerful and filled in the blanks with a comic book hero. Erica went a different direction. He could just have easily been Phil the Radiation Guy.

Well, he literally declared himself to be Solar, the Polish Sun God from Thor comics I think it was, though...

Hey, there's your establishment that Marvel is fictional at VALIANT...

Yeah but so was Dr. Solar and that never really stopped him.

Citation needed on a Thor character called Solar, the Polish Sun God. The Polish comment refers to his family name, Sileski, Polish in origin.

But the Doctor Solar that existed in the VALIANT Universe was not the same as the fictional Doctor Solar from Gold Key. Other characters and locations, like Atom Valley, did not exist in the real world.

For the crossover with Iron Man to work, Aric would have had to travel inside a comic book.

[leonmallett]

My two pence worth addition to the 'VH1 was hard science' debate: psychic powers are not hard science; alien suits of figure-hugging armour with near limitless energy and oxygen reserves are not hard science; voodoo-infused superhumanity is not hard science; death energy is not hard science; reincarnation is not hard science. I could go on.

the stories were fun, but no, no less, hard science than the fantasy of Star Trek et al, none of which are hard science based.

[ManofTheAtom]

My two pence worth addition to the 'VH1 was hard science' debate: psychic powers are not hard science; alien suits of figure-hugging armour with near limitless energy and oxygen reserves are not hard science; voodoo-infused superhumanity is not hard science; death energy is not hard science; reincarnation is not hard science. I could go on.

the stories were fun, but no, no less, hard science than the fantasy of Star Trek et al, none of which are hard science based.

It depends on the energy source. It doesn't run on diesel.

[Ryan]

My two pence worth addition to the 'VH1 was hard science' debate: psychic powers are not hard science; alien suits of figure-hugging armour with near limitless energy and oxygen reserves are not hard science; voodoo-infused superhumanity is not hard science; death energy is not hard science; reincarnation is not hard science. I could go on.

the stories were fun, but no, no less, hard science than the fantasy of Star Trek et al, none of which are hard science based.

Which is why terminology is important. I've only ever said pre-Unity VH1 leans toward Hard Science Fiction (abbreviated hard sci-fi) in comparison to the Marvel and DC universes. I would never say 'VH1 was hard science'. It's obviously fantasy sci-fi.

Pre-Unity (and the New Universe) just tried to limit the fantasy elements (and explain them in a semi-plausible manner) so the stories felt more believable and credible. Like sci-fi novels do. As opposed to Marvel and DC who throw out new fantasy magic systems and new alien races at the drop of a hat with no regard for logic or believability.

If you can't see the difference in those 2 approaches, I don't know what to tell you.

[ManofTheAtom]

Imagine all the modern technological advancements we take for granted that people a 100 or 150 years ago would dismiss as "impossible".

[Chiclo]

Imagine all the modern technological advancements we take for granted that people a 100 or 150 years ago would dismiss as "impossible".

They never even heard of microcircuitry.

We keep approaching these questions as in-universe scientists and you look at them as a fiction writer outside the universe.

[ManofTheAtom]

Imagine all the modern technological advancements we take for granted that people a 100 or 150 years ago would dismiss as "impossible".

They never even heard of microcircuitry.

We keep approaching these questions as in-universe scientists and you look at them as a fiction writer outside the universe.

As in-universe human scientists, hence Leon's dismissal of an alien suit of armor with near limitless energy and oxygen reserves. It's alien tech. How is that different to us today than present-day tech is to ancient humans from the past?

As for the rest, the last two from Shadowman of course are outright fantasy, while psychic powers fit the definition of hard science FICTION.

I think when discussing this we tend to forget that, ultimately, it's not a discussion about hard SCIENCE, it's about hard SCIENCE FICTION.

[ManofTheAtom]

Hard science fiction

[leonmallett]

Imagine all the modern technological advancements we take for granted that people a 100 or 150 years ago would dismiss as "impossible".

They never even heard of microcircuitry.

We keep approaching these questions as in-universe scientists and you look at them as a fiction writer outside the universe.

As in-universe human scientists, hence Leon's dismissal of an alien suit of armor with near limitless energy and oxygen reserves. It's alien tech. How is that different to us today than present-day tech is to ancient humans from the past?

As for the rest, the last two from Shadowman of course are outright fantasy, while psychic powers fit the definition of hard science FICTION.

I think when discussing this we tend to forget that, ultimately, it's not a discussion about hard SCIENCE, it's about hard SCIENCE FICTION.

Inherent in any application of 'hard science fiction' as a descriptor is that there is least rigour applied to the science fiction presented; hand-waving alien armour as able to safely compress oxygen sufficient for activity for days upon end in space or to have near-limitless energy reserves is not the same as explaining why alien armour can do this with an inherent and credible logic.