Corporate Wars

[grendeljd]

No one has done a corporate war/ dystopian future setting quite like Rucka & Lark in the image series Lazarus. It’s one of my top 3 all time favourite modern comics out there. Very intelligent, relatively grounded sci-fi that tries to forward-think current technology and Geo-political trends into a plausible but dark world.

Essentially set about 65 years after an event which saw the total collapse of traditional global government systems, after which the top 15 most wealthy of corporate “families” took over stewardship of various regions of earth, running things under a more feudal-state system but with agreed upon accords to keep things relatively stable among them. They are literally families who had the most successful business empires of the past. North America is almost entirely divided between only 2-3 families, for example. In this world, you are either family (the 1%), serf (what’s left of “middle class” skilled workforce), or “waste” (aka poor). 99% of the population is in this category.

Each of these families has a “Lazarus” - a single person who represents them as a military deterrent figure. They are all different, but each one is essentially a bit of a super-soldier, depending on the particular technology their corporate families have access to. They can command military forces if required, or if there are disagreements between two families, they are sometimes resolved simply by a “trial-by-combat” event that everyone collectively agrees upon. It’s more complex than that, but I won’t ramble on any further.

Point being, it’s an interesting framework for a world run by corporations and unchecked capitalism instead of governments - and to some extent this is a grim and fatalistic possible vision of how things could go in the real world. Governments already seem to barely have any real control over corporate capitalist interests at times.

I like MOTA’s thoughts on not having “superhero battles on the streets” as a significant resolution to part of any sort of corporate war storyline in the Valiant U - but it would make some sense for corporations who may end up with their own privately funded armies (aka “security forces”) to also try and gain access to superhuman security forces too (the Eggbreakers are already just that very thing), and use them where justified.

Certainly. I think HARD Corps fighting Eggbreakers, and Harbinger resistance fighting Troublemakers for example should be part of it, but the narrative focus should be on how it affects the regular people. Very Astro City-esque, mainly because it involves corporations and when those fight it is the people that suffer.

Focusing on the superheroes, it might as well be a traditional comic book story.

I tend to agree with your general statements on the boards that the Valiant U is more of a sci-fi world that happens to have superheroes in it rather than a superhero universe with sci fi elements. At its best, it was a more grounded universe where things do not get resolved by having people in costumes punching other people in costumes… but at the same time, it *is* also a superhero-flavoured universe… so you have to have them do their things too.

I’ve never read Astro City so I can’t relate to the comparison there.

[ManofTheAtom]

No one has done a corporate war/ dystopian future setting quite like Rucka & Lark in the image series Lazarus. It’s one of my top 3 all time favourite modern comics out there. Very intelligent, relatively grounded sci-fi that tries to forward-think current technology and Geo-political trends into a plausible but dark world.

Essentially set about 65 years after an event which saw the total collapse of traditional global government systems, after which the top 15 most wealthy of corporate “families” took over stewardship of various regions of earth, running things under a more feudal-state system but with agreed upon accords to keep things relatively stable among them. They are literally families who had the most successful business empires of the past. North America is almost entirely divided between only 2-3 families, for example. In this world, you are either family (the 1%), serf (what’s left of “middle class” skilled workforce), or “waste” (aka poor). 99% of the population is in this category.

Each of these families has a “Lazarus” - a single person who represents them as a military deterrent figure. They are all different, but each one is essentially a bit of a super-soldier, depending on the particular technology their corporate families have access to. They can command military forces if required, or if there are disagreements between two families, they are sometimes resolved simply by a “trial-by-combat” event that everyone collectively agrees upon. It’s more complex than that, but I won’t ramble on any further.

Point being, it’s an interesting framework for a world run by corporations and unchecked capitalism instead of governments - and to some extent this is a grim and fatalistic possible vision of how things could go in the real world. Governments already seem to barely have any real control over corporate capitalist interests at times.

I like MOTA’s thoughts on not having “superhero battles on the streets” as a significant resolution to part of any sort of corporate war storyline in the Valiant U - but it would make some sense for corporations who may end up with their own privately funded armies (aka “security forces”) to also try and gain access to superhuman security forces too (the Eggbreakers are already just that very thing), and use them where justified.

Certainly. I think HARD Corps fighting Eggbreakers, and Harbinger resistance fighting Troublemakers for example should be part of it, but the narrative focus should be on how it affects the regular people. Very Astro City-esque, mainly because it involves corporations and when those fight it is the people that suffer.

Focusing on the superheroes, it might as well be a traditional comic book story.

I tend to agree with your general statements on the boards that the Valiant U is more of a sci-fi world that happens to have superheroes in it rather than a superhero universe with sci fi elements. At its best, it was a more grounded universe where things do not get resolved by having people in costumes punching other people in costumes… but at the same time, it *is* also a superhero-flavoured universe… so you have to have them do their things too.

I’ve never read Astro City so I can’t relate to the comparison there.

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

[Ryan]

Certainly. I think HARD Corps fighting Eggbreakers, and Harbinger resistance fighting Troublemakers for example should be part of it, but the narrative focus should be on how it affects the regular people. Very Astro City-esque, mainly because it involves corporations and when those fight it is the people that suffer.

Focusing on the superheroes, it might as well be a traditional comic book story.

I tend to agree with your general statements on the boards that the Valiant U is more of a sci-fi world that happens to have superheroes in it rather than a superhero universe with sci fi elements. At its best, it was a more grounded universe where things do not get resolved by having people in costumes punching other people in costumes… but at the same time, it *is* also a superhero-flavoured universe… so you have to have them do their things too.

Good summary, I think everyone agrees that Valiant should be a more grounded, realistic sci-fi action hero universe. But it's still always been about action heroes and heroines fighting larger than life threats. It's just less campy and more realistic.

[Ryan]

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

I'm not crazy about the Marvels, telling it all from the perspective of normal people can work for a mini-series but not as the mainline universe imo.

Astro City is cool, and I like the idea of harkening back to DC and Marvel's Golden Age. The Golden Age stories were more raw and unpredictable, it would be a good thing for Valiant.

[ManofTheAtom]

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

I'm not crazy about the Marvels, telling it all from the perspective of normal people can work for a mini-series but not as the mainline universe imo.

Astro City is cool, and I like the idea of harkening back to DC and Marvel's Golden Age. The Golden Age stories were more raw and unpredictable, it would be a good thing for Valiant.

Well, for an event like Corporate Wars a change in perspective would be beneficial.

The thing about VALIANT at the start is that the heroes were regular people. I'm not sure that is still true now, though.

[Ryan]

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

I'm not crazy about the Marvels, telling it all from the perspective of normal people can work for a mini-series but not as the mainline universe imo.

Astro City is cool, and I like the idea of harkening back to DC and Marvel's Golden Age. The Golden Age stories were more raw and unpredictable, it would be a good thing for Valiant.

Well, for an event like Corporate Wars a change in perspective would be beneficial.

The thing about VALIANT at the start is that the heroes were regular people. I'm not sure that is still true now, though.

True, I get what you mean. Phil was just a regular guy and when he got powers he was still that regular guy even when he was fighting aliens and doing crazy stuff. It was the contrast between the regular people (like the Harbinger kids) and the extraordinary situations that made early Valiant work. Just like an updated version of what Lee and Ditko did with Peter Parker in the 60's.

[ManofTheAtom]

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

I'm not crazy about the Marvels, telling it all from the perspective of normal people can work for a mini-series but not as the mainline universe imo.

Astro City is cool, and I like the idea of harkening back to DC and Marvel's Golden Age. The Golden Age stories were more raw and unpredictable, it would be a good thing for Valiant.

Well, for an event like Corporate Wars a change in perspective would be beneficial.

The thing about VALIANT at the start is that the heroes were regular people. I'm not sure that is still true now, though.

True, I get what you mean. Phil was just a regular guy and when he got powers he was still that regular guy even when he was fighting aliens and doing crazy stuff. It was the contrast between the regular people (like the Harbinger kids) and the extraordinary situations that made early Valiant work. Just like an updated version of what Lee and Ditko did with Peter Parker in the 60's.

Exactly. For instance, the issue where Phil struggles to attend a party while keeping Ravenus in the bedroom is a great example of the contrast between the real world and the superhero world.

It wouldn't be impossible for VEI to do the same, but their characters might be too big for that now.

Except maybe Jack Boniface.

[Ryan]

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

I'm not crazy about the Marvels, telling it all from the perspective of normal people can work for a mini-series but not as the mainline universe imo.

Astro City is cool, and I like the idea of harkening back to DC and Marvel's Golden Age. The Golden Age stories were more raw and unpredictable, it would be a good thing for Valiant.

Well, for an event like Corporate Wars a change in perspective would be beneficial.

The thing about VALIANT at the start is that the heroes were regular people. I'm not sure that is still true now, though.

True, I get what you mean. Phil was just a regular guy and when he got powers he was still that regular guy even when he was fighting aliens and doing crazy stuff. It was the contrast between the regular people (like the Harbinger kids) and the extraordinary situations that made early Valiant work. Just like an updated version of what Lee and Ditko did with Peter Parker in the 60's.

Exactly. For instance, the issue where Phil struggles to attend a party while keeping Ravenus in the bedroom is a great example of the contrast between the real world and the superhero world.

It wouldn't be impossible for VEI to do the same, but their characters might be too big for that now.

Except maybe Jack Boniface.

Definitely. VEI was a bit more fantastical, but there's no reason Alien writers couldn't rein it in and ground it more.

[magnusr]

No one has done a corporate war/ dystopian future setting quite like Rucka & Lark in the image series Lazarus.

Thanks for the description. Sounds interesting.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

Sure, you can have the superheroes do their thing, but it should harken back to DC's and Marvel's Golden Age, when things were more grounded.

If not Astro City, did you read Marvels?

I'm not crazy about the Marvels, telling it all from the perspective of normal people can work for a mini-series but not as the mainline universe imo.

Astro City is cool, and I like the idea of harkening back to DC and Marvel's Golden Age. The Golden Age stories were more raw and unpredictable, it would be a good thing for Valiant.

Well, for an event like Corporate Wars a change in perspective would be beneficial.

The thing about VALIANT at the start is that the heroes were regular people. I'm not sure that is still true now, though.

True, I get what you mean. Phil was just a regular guy and when he got powers he was still that regular guy even when he was fighting aliens and doing crazy stuff. It was the contrast between the regular people (like the Harbinger kids) and the extraordinary situations that made early Valiant work. Just like an updated version of what Lee and Ditko did with Peter Parker in the 60's.

Exactly. For instance, the issue where Phil struggles to attend a party while keeping Ravenus in the bedroom is a great example of the contrast between the real world and the superhero world.

It wouldn't be impossible for VEI to do the same, but their characters might be too big for that now.

Except maybe Jack Boniface.

Definitely. VEI was a bit more fantastical, but there's no reason Alien writers couldn't rein it in and ground it more.

Fingers crossed.

[ManofTheAtom]

No one has done a corporate war/ dystopian future setting quite like Rucka & Lark in the image series Lazarus.

Thanks for the description. Sounds interesting.

/Magnus

It does, yeah. Prime Video was going to turn it into a TV series at one point.

[Ryan]

I've been saying that it would be cool if VALIANT did an event to get people's attention.

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that it would be cool if they did the VEI version of the corporate wars alluded to in Rai #0 (which would be different from the Harbinger Wars).

Who would be the factions in this conflict?

Orb? Omen? the Harbinger Foundation? Who else?

This could be used to introduce the VEI version of VH 2's Troublemakers and Galloway & Galloway.

Alien could maybe start off by doing a series of one-shots that introduce each faction in the conflict, their agenda, the players, etc.

The Orb one-shot could introduce the VEI versions of Ken Clarkson and Randy Cartier. Maybe even Donovan Wiley and Renata from VH 2 as employees of Orb.

So the Corporations we have are:

Harbinger
Orb
Omen
Project Rising Spirit
Galloway & Galloway

Possible corporations or factions:
Weaponeer
Archies

How would it play out? Would the corporations/factions eventually form alliances so there are only 2 sides to the war, or would it be a multipolar war? What would the main conflicts be, are they fighting for something other than world domination? Control of resources/advanced technologies (like PRS, Immortality, etc.) or control of the Harbingers (mutants/psiots)?

[ManofTheAtom]

I've been saying that it would be cool if VALIANT did an event to get people's attention.

Thinking about it, it occurred to me that it would be cool if they did the VEI version of the corporate wars alluded to in Rai #0 (which would be different from the Harbinger Wars).

Who would be the factions in this conflict?

Orb? Omen? the Harbinger Foundation? Who else?

This could be used to introduce the VEI version of VH 2's Troublemakers and Galloway & Galloway.

Alien could maybe start off by doing a series of one-shots that introduce each faction in the conflict, their agenda, the players, etc.

The Orb one-shot could introduce the VEI versions of Ken Clarkson and Randy Cartier. Maybe even Donovan Wiley and Renata from VH 2 as employees of Orb.

So the Corporations we have are:

Harbinger
Orb
Omen
Project Rising Spirit
Galloway & Galloway

Possible corporations or factions:
Weaponeer
Archies

How would it play out? Would the corporations/factions eventually form alliances so there are only 2 sides to the war, or would it be a multipolar war?

What would the main conflicts be, are they fighting for something other than world domination? Control of resources/advanced technologies (like PRS, Immortality, etc.) or control of the Harbingers (mutants/psiots)?

Good question.

Rai #0 cites the conflict between Harada and HARD Corps as being at the center of the corporate wars, with other economic powers that be taking sides.

So, you'd essentially have three sides: Harada's side, Omen's side, and the good guys, like Orb, and their respective allies. Though Omen could be said to be the "good guys", I guess, with Orb as their ally.

The fight would be to stop Harada from taking over the world, I suppose.

Though Alien could maybe find something more original to do.

[Ryan]

Good question.

Rai #0 cites the conflict between Harada and HARD Corps as being at the center of the corporate wars, with other economic powers that be taking sides.

So, you'd essentially have three sides: Harada's side, Omen's side, and the good guys, like Orb, and their respective allies. Though Omen could be said to be the "good guys", I guess, with Orb as their ally.

So sort of a Marvel Civil War type situation with Harada on one side and the 'heroes' on the other - Omen with Pete, X-O, Hard Corps, etc. Some heroes would inevitably end up on Harada's side due to either being duped or just sympathizing with Harada's viewpoint for whatever reason. Does this sound a lot like VEI's Harbinger Wars? I don't think I read much of it.

The fight would be to stop Harada from taking over the world, I suppose.

Though Alien could maybe find something more original to do.

Yeah world domination is a pretty tired trope, but when it comes to global powers fighting it out that's pretty much what it boils down to. So it's just a matter of making the story and characters have real depth and nuance. It can still be an exciting and unpredictable story even if the broader plot is an overused cliche.

[magnusr]

How would it play out?

It would have to be examined from the view of corporate societies. How can corporations replace the government? What does that mean in terms of binding the population to services that used to be governmental? And what is produced by the population that is bound to a corporation? Inevitably that leads to some companies cooperating to provide for "their" populations and others competing with more or less dirty methods. Espionage and sabotage can lead to assassinations and outright fighting and war. I feel that these fights must be put in the perspective of corporations cooperating or competing to maintain their corporate societies. Probably with alliences that change often.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

In Rai #0, it was cited as corporate states I believe, meaning that, essentially, the corporations sliced the country (if not the world) between them.

In the real world right now, a recent argument has been made in favor and against the concept of "15-minute cities", "an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk, bike ride, or public transit ride from any point in the city."

Corporations slicing off a country of a planet between them as a long-term narrative might push VALIANT too far away from the world outside our window, but if applied through the lens of something like the concept of a 15-minute city it might not be that overtly obvious, so that it's still about corporations fighting it out to control the populace but without turning into a farce in which, for instance, Amazon takes over Nevada.

So, the corporate wars would be covert, yet somewhat public. Concepts such as 15-minute cities and the like, which detractors denounce as being controlling, would be the weapons used against the populace.

Something like that.

[ManofTheAtom]

How would it play out?

It would have to be examined from the view of corporate societies. How can corporations replace the government? What does that mean in terms of binding the population to services that used to be governmental? And what is produced by the population that is bound to a corporation? Inevitably that leads to some companies cooperating to provide for "their" populations and others competing with more or less dirty methods. Espionage and sabotage can lead to assassinations and outright fighting and war. I feel that these fights must be put in the perspective of corporations cooperating or competing to maintain their corporate societies. Probably with alliences that change often.

/Magnus

Nice.

[ManofTheAtom]

I imagine the concept of corporate states is an outgrowth of company towns, "a place where practically all stores and housing are owned by the one company that is also the main employer. Company towns are often planned with a suite of amenities such as stores, houses of worship, schools, markets and recreation facilities. Some company towns have had high ideals, but many have been regarded as controlling and/or exploitative", but on a much grander scale.

The question would be, how feasible would an entire corporate state be without VALIANT losing the setting of the world outside our window?

[magnusr]

The question would be, how feasible would an entire corporate state be without VALIANT losing the setting of the world outside our window?

Personally I feel that the current world outside our window is so far away from a corporate state that this setting would be lost. Still possible to write a corporate wars story with a setting that builds on our current world.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

The question would be, how feasible would an entire corporate state be without VALIANT losing the setting of the world outside our window?

Personally I feel that the current world outside our window is so far away from a corporate state that this setting would be lost. Still possible to write a corporate wars story with a setting that builds on our current world.

/Magnus

Ideally, yeah.

[ManofTheAtom]

The Robocop franchise is a great example of the intricacies, conflicts, and possible narratives of what it is like when a corporation attempts to take over running a city, with OCP taking over Detroit to turn it into Delta City.

The first act in a VALIANT Corporate Wars event would show how the different corporations take over different cities and states in different countries around the world by doing such things as eroding the public trust in the democratically elected governments (i.e. Donald Trump and the like), the heroes and common folk being unable to stop them.

The second act would show what life under corporate rule is like as well as the kind of conflict that plays out between the corporations, such as Omen's HARD Corps fighting the Foundation's Eggbreakers with normal common folk caught in the middle, that sort of thing.

The third act would show how the heroes get the upper hand over the corporations and manage to topple them, from within and without and such, ending with the restoration of Democracies and, where applicable, monarchies.

Such an arc could be short-term, played out over a year for instance, or long-term, played out over multiple years (three or more), with each arc running a full 12 months from start to finish over multiple titles.

So, while in the end the status quo would be restored, over the course of the arc VALIANT would be doing something bold that DC and Marvel would never do. Imagine either of them publishing an arc in which aliens take over the world for three years or more. It wouldn't happen.

[magnusr]

The Robocop franchise is a great example of the intricacies, conflicts, and possible narratives of what it is like when a corporation attempts to take over running a city, with OCP taking over Detroit to turn it into Delta City.

The first act in a VALIANT Corporate Wars event would show how the different corporations take over different cities and states in different countries around the world by doing such things as eroding the public trust in the democratically elected governments (i.e. Donald Trump and the like), the heroes and common folk being unable to stop them.

The second act would show what life under corporate rule is like as well as the kind of conflict that plays out between the corporations, such as Omen's HARD Corps fighting the Foundation's Eggbreakers with normal common folk caught in the middle, that sort of thing.

The third act would show how the heroes get the upper hand over the corporations and manage to topple them, from within and without and such, ending with the restoration of Democracies and, where applicable, monarchies.

Such an arc could be short-term, played out over a year for instance, or long-term, played out over multiple years (three or more), with each arc running a full 12 months from start to finish over multiple titles.

So, while in the end the status quo would be restored, over the course of the arc VALIANT would be doing something bold that DC and Marvel would never do. Imagine either of them publishing an arc in which aliens take over the world for three years or more. It wouldn't happen.

/Magnus