Homages and Pastiches

[ManofTheAtom]

Over the decades, we've seen countless creators come up with their own homages and pastiches of DC and Marvel characters, such as (and, mainly), Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Captain America, and the like.

Will the day ever come that the same will be true of the VALIANT characters?

Do you foresee a day when someone might do an Astro City-esque comic book with pastiches of VALIANT characters the way Busiek used pastiches of DC and Marvel characters in his series?

Or a Watchmen-like series, which used pastiches of the Charlton characters?

Will there ever be characters like the Confessor and Samaritan (who are pastiches of Batman and Superman) that will be pastiches of Shadowman and X-O Manowar?

[syzhang28]

There already are. Zoot Suit, Tech Jacket, Nightman etc.

[Sunlight on Snow]

There already are. Zoot Suit, Tech Jacket, Nightman etc.

Hehe, Night Man -- Steve Engelhart's version of Shadowman after he got fired by Shooter for ignoring the Valiant continuity.

Who's Zoot Suit?!?

[ManofTheAtom]

There already are. Zoot Suit, Tech Jacket, Nightman etc.

Hehe, Night Man -- Steve Engelhart's version of Shadowman after he got fired by Shooter for ignoring the Valiant continuity.

Who's Zoot Suit?!?

I thought that was more of an Iron Man pastiche than X-O Manowar.

I don't think it was called Zoot Suit, though. I cannot find it by that name at least.

[leonmallett]

Zoom Suit.

If Night Man is regarded as pastiche to Shadowman, then arguably X-O Manowar is to Iron Man.

NM and SM’s commonality is saxophony.

IM and X-OM both powerful suits of armour that fly.

It is all really subjective and in the (mind’s) eye of beholder.

[Chiclo]

Zoom Suit.

If Night Man is regarded as pastiche to Shadowman, then arguably X-O Manowar is to Iron Man.

NM and SM’s commonality is saxophony.

IM and X-OM both powerful suits of armour that fly.

It is all really subjective and in the (mind’s) eye of beholder.

There is more commonality between Night Man and Shadowman, especially early in their stories when their powers are poorly understood, confuse the guy with the powers and seem to be connected to night.

[Sunlight on Snow]

If Night Man is regarded as pastiche to Shadowman, then arguably X-O Manowar is to Iron Man.

X-O Manowar certainly is inspired by Iron Man and Conan the Barbarian.

Pretty sure, Jim Shooter mentioned it several times.

[Sunlight on Snow]

From Petrilak's archive........
via Greg's archive......

http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/joe/s ... efault.php

[ManofTheAtom]

Zoom Suit.

If Night Man is regarded as pastiche to Shadowman, then arguably X-O Manowar is to Iron Man.

NM and SM’s commonality is saxophony.

IM and X-OM both powerful suits of armour that fly.

It is all really subjective and in the (mind’s) eye of beholder.

There you go, that's the one.

If the Night Man TV series is any indication, we may have dodged a bullet by not having Shadowman be adapted to other media in the '90s.

Surface similarities do exist, but, conceptually, Iron Man, X-O Manowar, and Zoom Suit are considerably different.

Not all heroes in suits of armor are the same.

Steel and Prototype, for instance, are no more alike to each other than they are to either of those three examples.

If Night Man is regarded as pastiche to Shadowman, then arguably X-O Manowar is to Iron Man.

X-O Manowar certainly is inspired by Iron Man and Conan the Barbarian.

Pretty sure, Jim Shooter mentioned it several times.

[Chiclo]

If the Night Man TV series is any indication, we may have dodged a bullet by not having Shadowman be adapted to other media in the '90s.

The Night Man tv show was ok. The best part was the theme song. The first season was very episodic with little tie in from episode to episode. I though an arc with a consistent villain or rival to Night Man would help but the second season proved me wrong. Still better than the later seasons of Mutant X, Andromeda or Earth Final Conflict. And while it was disappointing to see Taylor Dane go, they did replace her with Jennifer Sisko.

[ManofTheAtom]

If the Night Man TV series is any indication, we may have dodged a bullet by not having Shadowman be adapted to other media in the '90s.

The Night Man tv show was ok. The best part was the theme song. The first season was very episodic with little tie in from episode to episode. I though an arc with a consistent villain or rival to Night Man would help but the second season proved me wrong. Still better than the later seasons of Mutant X, Andromeda or Earth Final Conflict. And while it was disappointing to see Taylor Dane go, they did replace her with Jennifer Sisko.

I watched a couple of episodes. It came on here really late at night, way past midnight.

Mutant X, Andromeda, and Earth Final Conflict really did suffer toward the end. So much wasted potential. Though some seasons/episodes weren't entirely bad, many plots were unnecessarily dropped or changed.

[Chiclo]

If the Night Man TV series is any indication, we may have dodged a bullet by not having Shadowman be adapted to other media in the '90s.

The Night Man tv show was ok. The best part was the theme song. The first season was very episodic with little tie in from episode to episode. I though an arc with a consistent villain or rival to Night Man would help but the second season proved me wrong. Still better than the later seasons of Mutant X, Andromeda or Earth Final Conflict. And while it was disappointing to see Taylor Dane go, they did replace her with Jennifer Sisko.

I watched a couple of episodes. It came on here really late at night, way past midnight.

Mutant X, Andromeda, and Earth Final Conflict really did suffer toward the end. So much wasted potential. Though some seasons/episodes weren't entirely bad, many plots were unnecessarily dropped or changed.

Each of the three started with a strong first, and maybe second, season and whithered of the vine afterward. Mutant X suffered after the first season, villainous Andy Warhol was the best part of the show. I think it says a lot that they brought in an actress named Cliche (pronounced kleesh) in the third season. And they tried to make the guy who voiced Beast in X-Men the animated series intimidating. He’s a big guy but I just kept hearing the jolly Henry McCoy when he was trying to be mysterious.

Andromeda had a good two seasons and fell off a cliff in the third season when they replaced showrunners. Fourth was a little better but inconsistent. The fifth season was so different, not a bad idea but poorly executed. They had some truly original and interesting concepts, especially where Trance Gemini was concerned.

Earth Final Conflict started strong. The first season was pretty enjoyable. Each successive season got worse. The fifth was another retool and was horrible. Jayne Heitmeyer landed in EFC season 3 after starring in Nightman season 2. She made a prettier redhead than a blonde.

[ManofTheAtom]

If the Night Man TV series is any indication, we may have dodged a bullet by not having Shadowman be adapted to other media in the '90s.

The Night Man tv show was ok. The best part was the theme song. The first season was very episodic with little tie in from episode to episode. I though an arc with a consistent villain or rival to Night Man would help but the second season proved me wrong. Still better than the later seasons of Mutant X, Andromeda or Earth Final Conflict. And while it was disappointing to see Taylor Dane go, they did replace her with Jennifer Sisko.

I watched a couple of episodes. It came on here really late at night, way past midnight.

Mutant X, Andromeda, and Earth Final Conflict really did suffer toward the end. So much wasted potential. Though some seasons/episodes weren't entirely bad, many plots were unnecessarily dropped or changed.

Each of the three started with a strong first, and maybe second, season and whithered of the vine afterward. Mutant X suffered after the first season, villainous Andy Warhol was the best part of the show. I think it says a lot that they brought in an actress named Cliche (pronounced kleesh) in the third season. And they tried to make the guy who voiced Beast in X-Men the animated series intimidating. He’s a big guy but I just kept hearing the jolly Henry McCoy when he was trying to be mysterious.

Andromeda had a good two seasons and fell off a cliff in the third season when they replaced showrunners. Fourth was a little better but inconsistent. The fifth season was so different, not a bad idea but poorly executed. They had some truly original and interesting concepts, especially where Trance Gemini was concerned.

Earth Final Conflict started strong. The first season was pretty enjoyable. Each successive season got worse. The fifth was another retool and was horrible. Jayne Heitmeyer landed in EFC season 3 after starring in Nightman season 2. She made a prettier redhead than a blonde.

indeed. I still liked EFC, though. I do wish the final season had ended differently than it did.

[Ryan]

Over the decades, we've seen countless creators come up with their own homages and pastiches of DC and Marvel characters, such as (and, mainly), Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Captain America, and the like.

Will the day ever come that the same will be true of the VALIANT characters?

Do you foresee a day when someone might do an Astro City-esque comic book with pastiches of VALIANT characters the way Busiek used pastiches of DC and Marvel characters in his series?

Or a Watchmen-like series, which used pastiches of the Charlton characters?

Will there ever be characters like the Confessor and Samaritan (who are pastiches of Batman and Superman) that will be pastiches of Shadowman and X-O Manowar?

I think it's possible, but there's a few things that hurt the Valiant characters perception in the wider comic world.

1. They had a relatively short run, so did they make enough of an impression on the culture to be worthy of a pastiche or homage?

To go along with this, many of the characters already have multiple reboots and multiple variations, making a pastiche more complicated. Would a Shadowman pastiche be homaging the VH1 sax version or Deadside VH2 or VEI, etc? Not having one definitive version of a character starts to really water them down.

2. If you zoom out far enough, all superheroes are just pastiches and extensions of the originals. Of course we don't think that, we're fans who actually read the books and know what makes all of them unique and distinct from each other. But even accounting for the differences, many heroes are just slight variations on the original theme.

It could even be argued that most Valiant characters are already pastiches of earlier characters. The differences are in the details, and that's what early Valiant did so well, they made the superhero tropes feel fresh by putting new spins on the old ideas. Then used more adult logic and tight continuity to make the world feel more real.

[ManofTheAtom]

Over the decades, we've seen countless creators come up with their own homages and pastiches of DC and Marvel characters, such as (and, mainly), Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Captain America, and the like.

Will the day ever come that the same will be true of the VALIANT characters?

Do you foresee a day when someone might do an Astro City-esque comic book with pastiches of VALIANT characters the way Busiek used pastiches of DC and Marvel characters in his series?

Or a Watchmen-like series, which used pastiches of the Charlton characters?

Will there ever be characters like the Confessor and Samaritan (who are pastiches of Batman and Superman) that will be pastiches of Shadowman and X-O Manowar?

I think it's possible, but there's a few things that hurt the Valiant characters perception in the wider comic world.

1. They had a relatively short run, so did they make enough of an impression on the culture to be worthy of a pastiche or homage?

To go along with this, many of the characters already have multiple reboots and multiple variations, making a pastiche more complicated. Would a Shadowman pastiche be homaging the VH1 sax version or Deadside VH2 or VEI, etc? Not having one definitive version of a character starts to really water them down.

2. If you zoom out far enough, all superheroes are just pastiches and extensions of the originals. Of course we don't think that, we're fans who actually read the books and know what makes all of them unique and distinct from each other. But even accounting for the differences, many heroes are just slight variations on the original theme.

It could even be argued that most Valiant characters are already pastiches of earlier characters. The differences are in the details, and that's what early Valiant did so well, they made the superhero tropes feel fresh by putting new spins on the old ideas. Then used more adult logic and tight continuity to make the world feel more real.

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Personally I'd love to see a pastiche universe of Vh1. It could be done to include variations of the GK3 and could actually be more true to Vh1 than VEI/DMG is in many ways.

The character names and designs would just have to be as differentiated from Valiant as Watchmen is from Charlton.

[Chiclo]

Personally I'd love to see a pastiche universe of Vh1. It could be done to include variations of the GK3 and could actually be more true to Vh1 than VEI/DMG is.

Jiminy jillikers, Radioactive Man!

[Ryan]

Personally I'd love to see a pastiche universe of Vh1. It could be done to include variations of the GK3 and could actually be more true to Vh1 than VEI/DMG is.

Jiminy jillikers, Radioactive Man!

exactly

[ManofTheAtom]

Personally I'd love to see a pastiche universe of Vh1. It could be done to include variations of the GK3 and could actually be more true to Vh1 than VEI/DMG is.

Jiminy jillikers, Radioactive Man!

[Ryan]

Personally I'd love to see a pastiche universe of Vh1. It could be done to include variations of the GK3 and could actually be more true to Vh1 than VEI/DMG is.

Jiminy jillikers, Radioactive Man!

You know you've made it when Simpsons is spoofing you

[ManofTheAtom]

Personally I'd love to see a pastiche universe of Vh1. It could be done to include variations of the GK3 and could actually be more true to Vh1 than VEI/DMG is.

Jiminy jillikers, Radioactive Man!

You know you've made it when Simpsons is spoofing you

Indeed, heh.

[greg]

If you zoom out far enough, all superheroes are just pastiches and extensions of the originals. Of course we don't think that, we're fans who actually read the books and know what makes all of them unique and distinct from each other. But even accounting for the differences, many heroes are just slight variations on the original theme.

If people have never heard of this book, it's worth mentioning here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1577315936/

[ManofTheAtom]

If you zoom out far enough, all superheroes are just pastiches and extensions of the originals. Of course we don't think that, we're fans who actually read the books and know what makes all of them unique and distinct from each other. But even accounting for the differences, many heroes are just slight variations on the original theme.

If people have never heard of this book, it's worth mentioning here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1577315936/

I have that exact copy. I got it while on vacation in Las Vegas 15 years ago or so. I had been looking for it in San Diego during Comic-Con that year with no luck.

I use it all the time in my writing.

[Hotwire]

Sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* you would order at a *SQUEE* *SQUEE* bakery

[ManofTheAtom]

Sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* you would order at a *SQUEE* *SQUEE* bakery