What If Alien...

[ManofTheAtom]

...launched their line of VALIANT comics with entirely new characters that exist in the VALIANT Universe but created for today's world as opposed to the '90s like the originals were? What if the originals took a sort of back seat or less prominence in favor of new creations that spoke to today's audiences?

Imagine if newer characters got ongoing series while the originals received one-shots, graphic novels, etc that had more pages than made their stories more epic as opposed to episodic.

Might that help the VALIANT Universe as a whole thrive and survive as a brand/company/universe, or is said success entirely dependent on the original characters doing well?

If we looked at it through the lens of Marvel, might the original characters from the '90s not today be akin to what Captain America, Namor, and the Human Torch (who were created in the '40s) were in the '60s?

Might it be time for VALIANT to put the original characters to rest like Marvel did Captain America, Namor, and the Human Torch and release their versions of the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and the X-Men (to be clear, I don't mean literally knock them off, I mean in the context of characters created for the 2020s the way those were created for the 1960s, like Captain America and Namor were created for the 1940s)?

[slack]

there's a ton of existing IP... why create new IP(for DMG) and immediately pay licensing fees for it?

better Alien make original IP for internal Alien projects, and use existing licensed property to it's fullest.

[ManofTheAtom]

there's a ton of existing IP... why create new IP(for DMG) and immediately pay licensing fees for it?

better Alien make original IP for internal Alien projects, and use existing licensed property to it's fullest.

Think of it in terms of how Voyager built their universe around the IP they licensed from Gold Key.

At the same time, DMG should continue creating new characters for the VALIANT Universe.

[slack]

there's a ton of existing IP... why create new IP(for DMG) and immediately pay licensing fees for it?

better Alien make original IP for internal Alien projects, and use existing licensed property to it's fullest.

Think of it in terms of how Voyager built their universe around the IP they licensed from Gold Key.

At the same time, DMG should continue creating new characters for the VALIANT Universe.

think of it in terms of how many people are bothered by the Gold key characters missing now?

I guess it depends who owns any new IP created...?

This could end with an even more fragmented Valiant, where somewhere down the road Alien Books could possibly retain ownership of newly created IP.

Down the road, after Alien and DMG part ways... this could be an even bigger mess than losing the Gold Key 3.

[Chiclo]

there's a ton of existing IP... why create new IP(for DMG) and immediately pay licensing fees for it?

better Alien make original IP for internal Alien projects, and use existing licensed property to it's fullest.

Think of it in terms of how Voyager built their universe around the IP they licensed from Gold Key.

At the same time, DMG should continue creating new characters for the VALIANT Universe.

think of it in terms of how many people are bothered by the Gold key characters missing now?

I guess it depends who owns any new IP created...?

This could end with an even more fragmented Valiant, where somewhere down the road Alien Books could possibly retain ownership of newly created IP.

Down the road, after Alien and DMG part ways... this could be an even bigger mess than losing the Gold Key 3.

Something akin to the first few VEI publications, the hardcover reprints of the old VH1 titles, and how they could reprint stories that involved Magnus and Solar and Turok and X-calibre but not advertise them - potentially, 20 years down the line, if Alien did what MotA is talking about here, they could do something similar.

[ManofTheAtom]

I guess it depends who owns any new IP created...?

Indeed. It should be DMG, for sure. There is no reason they should stop creating new characters, but it depends on who is in control of the editorial vision, DMG or Alien.

Do we really believe that VALIANT will stop introducing new characters, regardless of who is publishing the comics?

[Ryan]

That would definitely be a novel approach to licensing characters. At this point Alien doesn't have much of a track record to look at.

VEI had Divinity and I'm sure a lot of other supporting characters that were new creations. I'm guessing that Kindt (he created Divinity, right?) had trust with Dino that if the character blew up made big movie money, that Kindt would get a cut of it

[ManofTheAtom]

That would definitely be a novel approach to licensing characters. At this point Alien doesn't have much of a track record to look at.

VEI had Divinity and I'm sure a lot of other supporting characters that were new creations. I'm guessing that Kindt (he created Divinity, right?) had trust with Dino that if the character blew up made big movie money, that Kindt would get a cut of it

Same for Dysart's Bleeding Monk.

[Ryan]

That would definitely be a novel approach to licensing characters. At this point Alien doesn't have much of a track record to look at.

VEI had Divinity and I'm sure a lot of other supporting characters that were new creations. I'm guessing that Kindt (he created Divinity, right?) had trust with Dino that if the character blew up made big movie money, that Kindt would get a cut of it

Same for Dysart's Bleeding Monk.

Exactly. Creating new characters that are going to be then owned by someone else would require a great deal of trust between creator and owner. I assume the VEI creators had that trust with the VEI owners.

[ManofTheAtom]

That would definitely be a novel approach to licensing characters. At this point Alien doesn't have much of a track record to look at.

VEI had Divinity and I'm sure a lot of other supporting characters that were new creations. I'm guessing that Kindt (he created Divinity, right?) had trust with Dino that if the character blew up made big movie money, that Kindt would get a cut of it

Same for Dysart's Bleeding Monk.

Exactly. Creating new characters that are going to be then owned by someone else would require a great deal of trust between creator and owner. I assume the VEI creators had that trust with the VEI owners.

No doubt.

I do think we'll keep seeing new characters from VALIANT in the future. Maybe even a revival of old ones (i.e. Troublemakers).

[greg]

I feel like the goal would be when Marvel reinvented itself in the early 1960s...
However, I feel like the result would be more like Marvel's New Universe, but without the Marvel fanbase to get it started or give it a try.

[ManofTheAtom]

I feel like the goal would be when Marvel reinvented itself in the early 1960s...
However, I feel like the result would be more like Marvel's New Universe, but without the Marvel fanbase to get it started or give it a try.

[Ryan]

I feel like the goal would be when Marvel reinvented itself in the early 1960s...
However, I feel like the result would be more like Marvel's New Universe, but without the Marvel fanbase to get it started or give it a try.

Yeah, that's the problem with anyone trying to start a new shared universe. It's been tried so many times since the New U, it's proven to be very difficult to gain significant traction.

The one advantage DMG-Alien will have is the relative name recognition of the Valiant characters. Which is why, beyond the legal issues, it would be odd for them to launch with a different set of characters while using the Valiant license.

I think the priority would be to establish some solid hits (even minor hits) with the existing Valiant characters before they can expand out to new characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

I feel like the goal would be when Marvel reinvented itself in the early 1960s...
However, I feel like the result would be more like Marvel's New Universe, but without the Marvel fanbase to get it started or give it a try.

Yeah, that's the problem with anyone trying to start a new shared universe. It's been tried so many times since the New U, it's proven to be very difficult to gain significant traction.

The one advantage DMG-Alien will have is the relative name recognition of the Valiant characters. Which is why, beyond the legal issues, it would be odd for them to launch with a different set of characters while using the Valiant license.

I think the priority would be to establish some solid hits (even minor hits) with the existing Valiant characters before they can expand out to new characters.

Yeah.

[Ryan]

It becomes a bit of a catch-22 situation. People want something new, but the reality of doing licensed characters is that there has to be something that relates to the licensed characters, otherwise why license? All you'd be doing is giving up ownership of your own creations for no reason (or only a 'name').

For example, if I got the Tarzan license but decided I wanted to have Tarzan be in space, in the far future, and a Russian/eskimo ethnicity. Ok, cool, but then at that point why even license Tarzan at all? I should just make it a new character and retain ownership.

[ManofTheAtom]

It becomes a bit of a catch-22 situation. People want something new, but the reality of doing licensed characters is that there has to be something that relates to the licensed characters, otherwise why license? All you'd be doing is giving up ownership of your own creations for no reason (or only a 'name').

For example, if I got the Tarzan license but decided I wanted to have Tarzan be in space, in the far future, and a Russian/eskimo ethnicity. Ok, cool, but then at that point why even license Tarzan at all? I should just make it a new character and retain ownership.

Well, think of it as the relationship between Magnus and Rai.

Magnus was the licensed character while Rai was VALIANT's first original character.

Acquiring the Magnus license allowed Voyager Communications to create an original character that existed in the same world as Magnus. Although they were separated by geography (North Am vs Japan) the two very clearly existed in the same world.

Alien Books could do the same thing. They could have licensed X-O Manowar and ALL related concepts, characters, world building, etc, and use that to create an ancillary character, like Rai was to Magnus. Something like a series about other humans the Vine took from Earth over the centuries that live on a colony in an entirely different solar system unconnected to Earth. Possibly the grown-up children they replaced (though such an example might be more of a spin-off than an entirely original creation like Rai was to Magnus).

[Ryan]

It becomes a bit of a catch-22 situation. People want something new, but the reality of doing licensed characters is that there has to be something that relates to the licensed characters, otherwise why license? All you'd be doing is giving up ownership of your own creations for no reason (or only a 'name').

For example, if I got the Tarzan license but decided I wanted to have Tarzan be in space, in the far future, and a Russian/eskimo ethnicity. Ok, cool, but then at that point why even license Tarzan at all? I should just make it a new character and retain ownership.

Well, think of it as the relationship between Magnus and Rai.

Magnus was the licensed character while Rai was VALIANT's first original character.

Acquiring the Magnus license allowed Voyager Communications to create an original character that existed in the same world as Magnus. Although they were separated by geography (North Am vs Japan) the two very clearly existed in the same world.

Alien Books could do the same thing. They could have licensed X-O Manowar and ALL related concepts, characters, world building, etc, and use that to create an ancillary character, like Rai was to Magnus. Something like a series about other humans the Vine took from Earth over the centuries that live on a colony in an entirely different solar system unconnected to Earth. Possibly the grown-up children they replaced (though such an example might be more of a spin-off than an entirely original creation like Rai was to Magnus).

Right on, I totally agree with that. They need to expand these characters and their world to make it interesting. Which will inevitably lead to spin-off characters just like how VH1 spun out of the reimagined Gold Key characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

It becomes a bit of a catch-22 situation. People want something new, but the reality of doing licensed characters is that there has to be something that relates to the licensed characters, otherwise why license? All you'd be doing is giving up ownership of your own creations for no reason (or only a 'name').

For example, if I got the Tarzan license but decided I wanted to have Tarzan be in space, in the far future, and a Russian/eskimo ethnicity. Ok, cool, but then at that point why even license Tarzan at all? I should just make it a new character and retain ownership.

Well, think of it as the relationship between Magnus and Rai.

Magnus was the licensed character while Rai was VALIANT's first original character.

Acquiring the Magnus license allowed Voyager Communications to create an original character that existed in the same world as Magnus. Although they were separated by geography (North Am vs Japan) the two very clearly existed in the same world.

Alien Books could do the same thing. They could have licensed X-O Manowar and ALL related concepts, characters, world building, etc, and use that to create an ancillary character, like Rai was to Magnus. Something like a series about other humans the Vine took from Earth over the centuries that live on a colony in an entirely different solar system unconnected to Earth. Possibly the grown-up children they replaced (though such an example might be more of a spin-off than an entirely original creation like Rai was to Magnus).

Right on, I totally agree with that. They need to expand these characters and their world to make it interesting. Which will inevitably lead to spin-off characters just like how VH1 spun out of the reimagined Gold Key characters.

Indeed.

[Chiclo]

It becomes a bit of a catch-22 situation. People want something new, but the reality of doing licensed characters is that there has to be something that relates to the licensed characters, otherwise why license? All you'd be doing is giving up ownership of your own creations for no reason (or only a 'name').

For example, if I got the Tarzan license but decided I wanted to have Tarzan be in space, in the far future, and a Russian/eskimo ethnicity. Ok, cool, but then at that point why even license Tarzan at all? I should just make it a new character and retain ownership.

Well, think of it as the relationship between Magnus and Rai.

Magnus was the licensed character while Rai was VALIANT's first original character.

Acquiring the Magnus license allowed Voyager Communications to create an original character that existed in the same world as Magnus. Although they were separated by geography (North Am vs Japan) the two very clearly existed in the same world.

Alien Books could do the same thing. They could have licensed X-O Manowar and ALL related concepts, characters, world building, etc, and use that to create an ancillary character, like Rai was to Magnus. Something like a series about other humans the Vine took from Earth over the centuries that live on a colony in an entirely different solar system unconnected to Earth. Possibly the grown-up children they replaced (though such an example might be more of a spin-off than an entirely original creation like Rai was to Magnus).

Valiant published both Magnus and Rai. Magnus even ran for more issues.

Your original post suggested creating new characters in the same continuity while not focusing on the older, established characters. Rai without Magnus.

[ManofTheAtom]

It becomes a bit of a catch-22 situation. People want something new, but the reality of doing licensed characters is that there has to be something that relates to the licensed characters, otherwise why license? All you'd be doing is giving up ownership of your own creations for no reason (or only a 'name').

For example, if I got the Tarzan license but decided I wanted to have Tarzan be in space, in the far future, and a Russian/eskimo ethnicity. Ok, cool, but then at that point why even license Tarzan at all? I should just make it a new character and retain ownership.

Well, think of it as the relationship between Magnus and Rai.

Magnus was the licensed character while Rai was VALIANT's first original character.

Acquiring the Magnus license allowed Voyager Communications to create an original character that existed in the same world as Magnus. Although they were separated by geography (North Am vs Japan) the two very clearly existed in the same world.

Alien Books could do the same thing. They could have licensed X-O Manowar and ALL related concepts, characters, world building, etc, and use that to create an ancillary character, like Rai was to Magnus. Something like a series about other humans the Vine took from Earth over the centuries that live on a colony in an entirely different solar system unconnected to Earth. Possibly the grown-up children they replaced (though such an example might be more of a spin-off than an entirely original creation like Rai was to Magnus).

Valiant published both Magnus and Rai. Magnus even ran for more issues.

Your original post suggested creating new characters in the same continuity while not focusing on the older, established characters. Rai without Magnus.

True. Consider it amended.

[grendeljd]

Another late response here (I’m working on reading “new” posts all the way down to page 3 as I’ve been away for a bit)…

Inspired to respond *almost entirely* because Greg mentioned my absolute favourite (& often unfairly maligned) shared universe - the Marvel New U!!

I have a few thoughts as far as the whole issue with licensing around existing IP’s and what to do about creating new ones, and the sticky mess of how that may play out with Alien books using Valiant IP…

Just speaking from some limited personal experience (namely seeing this side of the business from my wife’s perspective as a freelance illustrator over the last 10 years), licensors (DMG) are essentially just looking to collect fees on the use of their IP by any other business (Alien), with minimal/no additional expenses involved.

They will have some degree of oversight and final approval over any form of content being produced within the IP - this is likely one of the main tasks of whomever is remaining within Valiant (did I read somewhere this year that there are currently only 3 employees left in Valiant proper?).

Everything else about it will be handled by Alien, who is a publisher themselves and can manage all that side of it. They just incur the licensing fee on top of all the other expenses required to produce and release the books. They would be responsible for making sure they don’t do anything with the character IP’s that falls outside of the copyright limitations without approval from DMG first. In a large company like Disney as an example, there is always a committee of Disney employees that will be dedicated to working with any outside creative team to ensure nothing falls outside their set of rules or guidelines for public presentation of their characters.

DMG might just have one guy (or two) rubber stamping anything Alien does… or they may care even less than that as long as they get their fee. It’s probably a really good thing that some former VEI peeps are going over to Alien to work with them on the Valiant projects - they will already have a relationship established with the ones left at Valiant, and are essentially already a team of established VEI editors etc that can get the projects underway.

The question of whether or not Alien might create new IP characters for Valiant books? It is possible - I don’t know if any new characters would actually be owned by Alien in that case or if it might fall more under a work-for-hire contract agreement with DMG. What Valiant did with the Gold Key characters was a bold & successful move for the time, but look at how it shook out since then - mostly a giant pain to deal with separated IP licenses.

Taking the example mentioned above where Matt Kindt created Divinity (among others) and Josh Dysart created The Bleeding Monk… those characters would have been made under the common W.F.H. understanding that VEI owns the right to them.

I suspect that Alien will most likely focus on putting out recognizable VEI characters and using whatever brand recognition remains as their best marketing tool for success. I’m ok with that and am looking forward to any new Valiant books from them.

[grendeljd]

Also - apologies if some of what I said has already been discussed to death elsewhere already! As I said, I’m working on reading “old” posts on page three that are *new* to me, haha!

[ManofTheAtom]

Another late response here (I’m working on reading “new” posts all the way down to page 3 as I’ve been away for a bit)…

Inspired to respond *almost entirely* because Greg mentioned my absolute favourite (& often unfairly maligned) shared universe - the Marvel New U!!

I have a few thoughts as far as the whole issue with licensing around existing IP’s and what to do about creating new ones, and the sticky mess of how that may play out with Alien books using Valiant IP…

Just speaking from some limited personal experience (namely seeing this side of the business from my wife’s perspective as a freelance illustrator over the last 10 years), licensors (DMG) are essentially just looking to collect fees on the use of their IP by any other business (Alien), with minimal/no additional expenses involved.

They will have some degree of oversight and final approval over any form of content being produced within the IP - this is likely one of the main tasks of whomever is remaining within Valiant (did I read somewhere this year that there are currently only 3 employees left in Valiant proper?).

Everything else about it will be handled by Alien, who is a publisher themselves and can manage all that side of it. They just incur the licensing fee on top of all the other expenses required to produce and release the books. They would be responsible for making sure they don’t do anything with the character IP’s that falls outside of the copyright limitations without approval from DMG first. In a large company like Disney as an example, there is always a committee of Disney employees that will be dedicated to working with any outside creative team to ensure nothing falls outside their set of rules or guidelines for public presentation of their characters.

DMG might just have one guy (or two) rubber stamping anything Alien does… or they may care even less than that as long as they get their fee. It’s probably a really good thing that some former VEI peeps are going over to Alien to work with them on the Valiant projects - they will already have a relationship established with the ones left at Valiant, and are essentially already a team of established VEI editors etc that can get the projects underway.

The question of whether or not Alien might create new IP characters for Valiant books? It is possible - I don’t know if any new characters would actually be owned by Alien in that case or if it might fall more under a work-for-hire contract agreement with DMG. What Valiant did with the Gold Key characters was a bold & successful move for the time, but look at how it shook out since then - mostly a giant pain to deal with separated IP licenses.

Taking the example mentioned above where Matt Kindt created Divinity (among others) and Josh Dysart created The Bleeding Monk… those characters would have been made under the common W.F.H. understanding that VEI owns the right to them.

I suspect that Alien will most likely focus on putting out recognizable VEI characters and using whatever brand recognition remains as their best marketing tool for success. I’m ok with that and am looking forward to any new Valiant books from them.

I imagine that comics based on IP like Star Trek, Star Wars, Power Rangers, Transformers, G.I. Joe and the like HAVE introduced entirely original characters not present in the original source material.

For instance, that space bunny character in the Marvel Star Wars comics of the '70s.

Who owns that character, Lucasfilm or Marvel? Or do they share ownership?

What's the deal with Red Sonja? I know that's been an issue for decades, but clearly Marvel doesn't own her.

[Chiclo]

Also - apologies if some of what I said has already been discussed to death elsewhere already! As I said, I’m working on reading “old” posts on page three that are *new* to me, haha!

Onn the contrary, we are discussing things that have already been discussed to death. You CAN flog a dead horse.

[lorddunlow]

What's the deal with Red Sonja? I know that's been an issue for decades, but clearly Marvel doesn't own her.

I just read this because I assumed her character was public domain, but it ha s convoluted history...


https://www.cbr.com/marvel-red-sonja-conan-deal/


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