What I'd Like To See From VALIANT

[Man-of-The-Atom]

I wrote that Wiki!

Well, I wrote "a" Wiki. Was hired by Dinesh to do it. After it was taken down from their official site I moved it to Fandom, then later on someone from Fandom contacted me about their moving my entries to their VALIANT wiki.

I know some of my content was transferred over to their site but I don't know it was all of it. I don't think it was.

Mine only covered VH 1 except for Solar, Magnus, and Turok, and only the original characters introduced in VH 2.

https://the-book-of-geomancer.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page

Oh, that was/is you!

I'm the main admin and editor of valiant.fandom.com, besides MrBlonde.

IIRC, we only copied a handful of your summaries but never really had enough time to copy & paste them all one by one.

Needless to say we haven't done much anymore in recent years. Just like VEI.

Would having the files make it easier for you to copy them to the Wiki?

I got Dinesh' permission for you to copy the versions that are online. I don't imagine giving you the actual Word files would be any different since they have the exact same information.

[Man-of-The-Atom]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

[ManofTheAtom]

Greg helped me reactivate my original account, so this is me now.

[Chiclo]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

Now who wants DC Lite?

[ManofTheAtom]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

Now who wants DC Lite?

How is that DC Lite? I get the reference to my calling VH 2 that, but I don't get the connection between what I said about Tama and DC.

[grendeljd]

This is a lot of discussion to take in and respond to, but I’ll try!

Coming at this from the perspective of an old school VH1 fan who also really enjoyed a great deal of the Dinesh-era of VEI… I really think that trying to build anything around the Gold-Key properties again is an impossible dream at this point. I tend to doubt that anyone will seek out those IP’s and spend the money to pair them with VEI anymore. And I have to say that personally, while I enjoyed Solar & Magnus to some extent, I am not enough of a fan of either to pine over their loss in the modern era. I never did like Turok despite buying several issues of it back in the 90’s. So take my ideas with a grain of salt & that in mind.

I think that Divinity is the guy to use to create some sort of fusion-event of all the iterations into something that takes the best elements of every era (which is subjective & not necessarily easy to achieve) without actually rebooting the overall continuity. He is the modern replacement character for Solar within VEI. There is already a stumbling block in terms of not being able to include Solar or Magnus’s portions of the original continuity here due to lame real-world business crap, but it’s the best bet.

He is such an immensely powerful character that he is difficult to write - even with what exists, I always noticed that writers tended to have to find stories which essentially took him off the board in order to actually include him anywhere… but therein lies a possibility for something that could work. He could be on his own in self-imposed isolation, meditating on the nature of all reality or some such, (as you do when you’re omnipotent ) and end up analyzing the energy that exists in everything, as MOTA was suggesting. Somewhere in that analysis of the building blocks of reality, he discovers threads of alternate realities and is off on a multiversal tangent of exploration - and something key would then have to happen that would believably convince him to pull “edited” threads together in the current VEI reality he inhabits. Maybe other realities are decaying/fragmenting and he finds out he can save elements of them if he pairs them with his own reality…

[grendeljd]

Just to be clear, I don't think the plot points or specific characters are as important as going back to the principles of Pre-Unity VALIANT storytelling (which would be a whole nother thread lol).

Basically a grown-up version of 60s and 80s Marvel. Focus is on story and clear storytelling over fancy illustration. The opposite of how Image has trained people to think comic art has to be splashy and sensationalist to be considered 'good'.

The breakthrough is when you realize Don Perlin's art is also great for opposite reasons of Image artists: it performs its function of giving the reader everything they need to experience the story in their mind, without being distracted by extravagant line work and overwrought page layouts. 'Have a good story, and tell it well.' Let the reader experience the 'movie in the mind.'

I do not want to give you a hard time over your opinion here, no offence intended - but I would like to discuss some of the points you’ve been making in this thread about ‘good’ comic art and what kind of art constitutes good storytelling. It is a very subjective… subject

I agree with the idea of letting the reader experience the ‘movie in the mind’ effect - that is the true power inherent in the medium when it is at its best. And it’s a big part of why I’m obsessed with comics. But I don’t cling to the idea that Shooters method (which did work incredibly well for Valiant at the time) is the only or the best way to achieve that. It was good for its time, but it was also a method that stifled artists in some regards - in the long run I think it would have played out over the span of more years under Shooter and become stagnant. And I say that as a huge fan of what Shooter did for comics throughout his career, not just to throw criticism out there.

I do think that your thinking is a little out of date if you are still considering Image as a company that continues to influence people to only expect shallow and splashy art along the lines of what the founding group did in the early 90’s. That ‘extreme’ era is long gone - and the industry/art form as a whole has grown & matured a great deal since then. The current form of Image continues to push the boundaries of great comics much the way that Vertigo did in the 90’s, and that includes a very broad swath of artistic styles.

Personally, I am not necessarily a fan of everything going on out there, but I see the broad strokes of the path it has all taken over my own decades of being a fan. And also as an artist myself. I think about the mechanics of comic art a lot. I don’t have an ego about my own opinion - after all, I’ve only ever managed to do a few covers and a few 8 page stories at the indie level, so I’m nobody. But I still get very inspired by many modern artists doing things I only wish I could do with my own work. Things that do not sit on any extreme end of the spectrum of style.

Are there still splashy-flashy comics with no substance? Yes. Lots of them.

There are also *countless* examples of tremendous talent in both style *and* substance out there in modern comics. And for me, the typical 6-panel standard grid that Shooter always liked to embrace with minimal variations & a lot of enforced camera angle ideas for the art there-in is entirely too restrictive. I like it when it works well, and I’m a fan of those Pre-unity comics just like anyone else here. But in my opinion, a good sequential artist can work miracles without being held to those almost arbitrary restrictions. They are *also* at their best when they avoid the other end of the spectrum too. Being able to create quality *sequential* art is a creative skill that requires a fluid juggling act of multiple elements.

Anyway, that’s a bit of a long tangent - and once again, no offence intended to your own opinion of what you like.

[ManofTheAtom]

This is a lot of discussion to take in and respond to, but I’ll try!

Coming at this from the perspective of an old school VH1 fan who also really enjoyed a great deal of the Dinesh-era of VEI… I really think that trying to build anything around the Gold-Key properties again is an impossible dream at this point. I tend to doubt that anyone will seek out those IP’s and spend the money to pair them with VEI anymore. And I have to say that personally, while I enjoyed Solar & Magnus to some extent, I am not enough of a fan of either to pine over their loss in the modern era. I never did like Turok despite buying several issues of it back in the 90’s. So take my ideas with a grain of salt & that in mind.

I think that Divinity is the guy to use to create some sort of fusion-event of all the iterations into something that takes the best elements of every era (which is subjective & not necessarily easy to achieve) without actually rebooting the overall continuity. He is the modern replacement character for Solar within VEI. There is already a stumbling block in terms of not being able to include Solar or Magnus’s portions of the original continuity here due to lame real-world business crap, but it’s the best bet.

He is such an immensely powerful character that he is difficult to write - even with what exists, I always noticed that writers tended to have to find stories which essentially took him off the board in order to actually include him anywhere… but therein lies a possibility for something that could work. He could be on his own in self-imposed isolation, meditating on the nature of all reality or some such, (as you do when you’re omnipotent ) and end up analyzing the energy that exists in everything, as MOTA was suggesting. Somewhere in that analysis of the building blocks of reality, he discovers threads of alternate realities and is off on a multiversal tangent of exploration - and something key would then have to happen that would believably convince him to pull “edited” threads together in the current VEI reality he inhabits. Maybe other realities are decaying/fragmenting and he finds out he can save elements of them if he pairs them with his own reality…

I'd prefer false histories over multiverses, but I guess that ultimately one would be unavoidable given its inclusion in Unity 2000.

All of that sounds great.

[grendeljd]

And taking that Divinity idea one step further in detail… while it’s more based on multiversal solutions, it would be possible to keep that minimal and achieve something close to what you are seeking out.

What if he was essentially peering into the VH1 version of his reality, and could see that another omnipotent being was present there who had constructed that universe in its entirety. He senses that it is like himself, if not perhaps an actual version of himself. But for some reason unknown to him, that version of him is currently absent from that reality and he cannot perceive why, nor can he see who or what that figure was - he can just sense its absence in the energy/matter weave of that reality, and it’s hand in the creation of it.

And because it is literally absent from the universe that it created, the fabric of that reality is decaying and/or collapsing. Parts of its timeline would be decayed beyond retrieval - like large portions of the Magnus driven 4000 era, or Turoks place in the present. As a benign being he is saddened by this discovery and wishes to do something to prevent the tragedy of a full collapse of the VH1 reality.

Divinity then sees that he could save some of that reality by pulling strands of it out like pieces of fabric, and weaving them into his own VEI reality by integrating them together with their VEI counterparts. Like patching a string with additional layers of fine hairs woven into it to make it stronger. This would cause some complications because then two separate truths from two continuities would be simultaneously true in the memories of the characters affected - but perhaps Divinity would be skilled enough to place them in such a deft way that it creates the least amount of paradoxes or contradictions.

In other words, writers will pick and choose the most favourite elements of each to incorporate into one.

That also flows with the Meta-level real-world explanation for this, which of course is that we’re talking about Solar as the Divinity figure and all those Gold Key IP’s have been separated - the characters cannot be included in VEI continuity. Knowing that as longtime fans would probably be a cool kind of Easter egg. But not knowing it would not affect the new story either way - the premise works even without the wink & nod to the Gold Key characters.

[ManofTheAtom]

And taking that Divinity idea one step further in detail… while it’s more based on multiversal solutions, it would be possible to keep that minimal and achieve something close to what you are seeking out.

What if he was essentially peering into the VH1 version of his reality, and could see that another omnipotent being was present there who had constructed that universe in its entirety. He senses that it is like himself, if not perhaps an actual version of himself. But for some reason unknown to him, that version of him is currently absent from that reality and he cannot perceive why, nor can he see who or what that figure was - he can just sense its absence in the energy/matter weave of that reality, and it’s hand in the creation of it.

And because it is literally absent from the universe that it created, the fabric of that reality is decaying and/or collapsing. Parts of its timeline would be decayed beyond retrieval - like large portions of the Magnus driven 4000 era, or Turoks place in the present. As a benign being he is saddened by this discovery and wishes to do something to prevent the tragedy of a full collapse of the VH1 reality.

Divinity then sees that he could save some of that reality by pulling strands of it out like pieces of fabric, and weaving them into his own VEI reality by integrating them together with their VEI counterparts. Like patching a string with additional layers of fine hairs woven into it to make it stronger. This would cause some complications because then two separate truths from two continuities would be simultaneously true in the memories of the characters affected - but perhaps Divinity would be skilled enough to place them in such a deft way that it creates the least amount of paradoxes or contradictions.

In other words, writers will pick and choose the most favourite elements of each to incorporate into one.

That also flows with the Meta-level real-world explanation for this, which of course is that we’re talking about Solar as the Divinity figure and all those Gold Key IP’s have been separated - the characters cannot be included in VEI continuity. Knowing that as longtime fans would probably be a cool kind of Easter egg. But not knowing it would not affect the new story either way - the premise works even without the wink & nod to the Gold Key characters.

Nice! That works great.

[ManofTheAtom]

Imagine if DMG/Alien found a way to integrate VH 1 into VEI and future reprints in trades digitally replaced Solar with Divinity.

[Ryan]

Just to be clear, I don't think the plot points or specific characters are as important as going back to the principles of Pre-Unity VALIANT storytelling (which would be a whole nother thread lol).

Basically a grown-up version of 60s and 80s Marvel. Focus is on story and clear storytelling over fancy illustration. The opposite of how Image has trained people to think comic art has to be splashy and sensationalist to be considered 'good'.

The breakthrough is when you realize Don Perlin's art is also great for opposite reasons of Image artists: it performs its function of giving the reader everything they need to experience the story in their mind, without being distracted by extravagant line work and overwrought page layouts. 'Have a good story, and tell it well.' Let the reader experience the 'movie in the mind.'

I do not want to give you a hard time over your opinion here, no offence intended - but I would like to discuss some of the points you’ve been making in this thread about ‘good’ comic art and what kind of art constitutes good storytelling. It is a very subjective… subject

I agree with the idea of letting the reader experience the ‘movie in the mind’ effect - that is the true power inherent in the medium when it is at its best. And it’s a big part of why I’m obsessed with comics. But I don’t cling to the idea that Shooters method (which did work incredibly well for Valiant at the time) is the only or the best way to achieve that. It was good for its time, but it was also a method that stifled artists in some regards - in the long run I think it would have played out over the span of more years under Shooter and become stagnant. And I say that as a huge fan of what Shooter did for comics throughout his career, not just to throw criticism out there.

I do think that your thinking is a little out of date if you are still considering Image as a company that continues to influence people to only expect shallow and splashy art along the lines of what the founding group did in the early 90’s. That ‘extreme’ era is long gone - and the industry/art form as a whole has grown & matured a great deal since then. The current form of Image continues to push the boundaries of great comics much the way that Vertigo did in the 90’s, and that includes a very broad swath of artistic styles.

Personally, I am not necessarily a fan of everything going on out there, but I see the broad strokes of the path it has all taken over my own decades of being a fan. And also as an artist myself. I think about the mechanics of comic art a lot. I don’t have an ego about my own opinion - after all, I’ve only ever managed to do a few covers and a few 8 page stories at the indie level, so I’m nobody. But I still get very inspired by many modern artists doing things I only wish I could do with my own work. Things that do not sit on any extreme end of the spectrum of style.

Are there still splashy-flashy comics with no substance? Yes. Lots of them.

There are also *countless* examples of tremendous talent in both style *and* substance out there in modern comics. And for me, the typical 6-panel standard grid that Shooter always liked to embrace with minimal variations & a lot of enforced camera angle ideas for the art there-in is entirely too restrictive. I like it when it works well, and I’m a fan of those Pre-unity comics just like anyone else here. But in my opinion, a good sequential artist can work miracles without being held to those almost arbitrary restrictions. They are *also* at their best when they avoid the other end of the spectrum too. Being able to create quality *sequential* art is a creative skill that requires a fluid juggling act of multiple elements.

Anyway, that’s a bit of a long tangent - and once again, no offence intended to your own opinion of what you like.

Dude I appreciate the discussion of comic art! It's a lot to chew on, I don't disagree with what you're saying. It's hard to speak in generalities about an entire art form, so at times I exaggerate or simplify to make a point.

The main point I'm trying to make is that comics since the 'Image revolution' have catered to the tastes of enthusiasts. This has led to comics becoming more illustrative, bigger pictures, more dynamic, more layout experimentation - the comic page itself is a graphic design project.

I think the roots of this are actually in the 70's with Neal Adams and others, but for shorthand I call it Image style. For example, Tomas Giorello doesn't really draw like a 90's Image artist, but his approach is very illustrative and graphic design heavy, placing the priority on the artistry, so to me it's an 'Image' style.

The cost to this approach is that many of the things that appeal to enthusiasts are the exact opposite of the things that make comics accessible and enjoyable to the average, non-comics enthusiast reader.

Take for example newspaper strip comics and Carl Barks' Duck comics. Would a Barks comic be improved by drawing it in an illustrative Image style? You'd have superbly rendered duck feathers and duck bills, but it would be absurd and detract from the story and its accessibility. Barks' art is masterful because he elegantly draws only what is needed for the story to play in the reader's head, but I'm sure many modern comic fans would think it looks boring on a glance or flip-through.

I'm not saying (in my original post) Don Perlin is the pinnacle of comic art or anything, just that I now appreciate more the artistry in his (and others) 'meat and potatoes' approach to comic art. To me pre-Unity VALIANT was the last time a major comics company did this more accessible approach to comics, and it's an underrated reason why they were so successful.

Shooter was trained in the 60's when comics were a mass media medium that needed to be accessible to non-enthusiasts, just like popular paperback books and magazines are designed to be accessible and readable by the average person, not only book and magazine enthusiasts.

There are also *countless* examples of tremendous talent in both style *and* substance out there in modern comics. And for me, the typical 6-panel standard grid that Shooter always liked to embrace with minimal variations & a lot of enforced camera angle ideas for the art there-in is entirely too restrictive. I like it when it works well, and I’m a fan of those Pre-unity comics just like anyone else here. But in my opinion, a good sequential artist can work miracles without being held to those almost arbitrary restrictions. They are *also* at their best when they avoid the other end of the spectrum too. Being able to create quality *sequential* art is a creative skill that requires a fluid juggling act of multiple elements.

I totally agree with this. I don't think things need to slide all the way to the other end of the spectrum. It's always a balancing act. Even the 'Shooter style' was perfected when it was taken to the next level by Frank Miller in DD, Byrne in FF, and Simonson in Thor. They still conformed to many of Shooter's 'restrictions' (priority on storytelling and accessibility over illustrative style) and yet were able to find great innovation and artistry within that, while still being readable to the everyday average person who bought it from the newsstand.

[Chiclo]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

Now who wants DC Lite?

How is that DC Lite? I get the reference to my calling VH 2 that, but I don't get the connection between what I said about Tama and DC.

DC has used reboots to add gender diverse identities to characters and legacy concepts. Although, you do have a point that DC would not use this device to erase a woman character of colour and replace her with a white man.

[ManofTheAtom]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

Now who wants DC Lite?

How is that DC Lite? I get the reference to my calling VH 2 that, but I don't get the connection between what I said about Tama and DC.

DC has used reboots to add gender diverse identities to characters and legacy concepts. Although, you do have a point that DC would not use this device to erase a woman character of colour and replace her with a white man.

I wasn't suggesting replacing Tama with a white Geoff, though. Just that Tama, person of color and all, could come out as trans and change her female name, Tama, to a male name, Geoff, and take on the McHenry surname as an homage to her predecessor.

[Chiclo]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

Now who wants DC Lite?

How is that DC Lite? I get the reference to my calling VH 2 that, but I don't get the connection between what I said about Tama and DC.

DC has used reboots to add gender diverse identities to characters and legacy concepts. Although, you do have a point that DC would not use this device to erase a woman character of colour and replace her with a white man.

I wasn't suggesting replacing Tama with a white Geoff, though. Just that Tama, person of color and all, could come out as trans and change her female name, Tama, to a male name, Geoff, and take on the McHenry surname as an homage to her predecessor.

So your suggestion is more like DC than met the eye at second glance?

[ManofTheAtom]

What if one such layer reveal resulted in Tama coming out as trans and taking on the name "Geoff McHenry" as *his* true identity? (McHenry in homage to the previous Geomancer, Kay McHenry).

Now who wants DC Lite?

How is that DC Lite? I get the reference to my calling VH 2 that, but I don't get the connection between what I said about Tama and DC.

DC has used reboots to add gender diverse identities to characters and legacy concepts. Although, you do have a point that DC would not use this device to erase a woman character of colour and replace her with a white man.

I wasn't suggesting replacing Tama with a white Geoff, though. Just that Tama, person of color and all, could come out as trans and change her female name, Tama, to a male name, Geoff, and take on the McHenry surname as an homage to her predecessor.

So your suggestion is more like DC than met the eye at second glance?

Not the way you painted it, I don't think.

You made it sound as if, for instance, DC is taking characters that were traditionally white and male and changing both their ethnicities and/or gender on a whim, like duck-duck-goose.

What I'm suggesting is taking an existing character and adding an additional layer to their narrative, in this case that Tama (who is a woman) be reinterpreted as trans and given the name of an existing classic VALIANT character as a way of bringing THAT character back without doing a reboot in a way that expands on Tama's narrative and character arc that also embraces the VALIANT brand of existing in the world outside our window.

Shooter used to hint at the existence of a gay character in the VALIANT Universe, who many claim was intended to be Peter Stanchek, but the comics never really embraced that. So this sort of inclusion is not entirely new at VALIANT, though it wasn't really explored at the time.

[Ryan]

All that we're discussing is the exact same dilemmas that VEI faced in 2008-2011 or whenever they were deciding how to launch.

How much do you lean on the way things were done before? How much (and which) continuity do you use? Total Reboot?

I think most people agree that a 100% old school recreation wouldn't work. Too stale and too much empty nostalgia. Also the creators are older, comics are not the same, even if you wanted to do it a 100% recreation would never be the same.

So there has to be some amount of newness. How much and in what way? VH2 went totally new - all new creators, all characters completely re-imagined so only the titles and some of the basic premises were the same, no adherence to a unifying style. That seems like too much new, as it loses almost all connection to VH1, which was successful in many ways.

Now we're in the spectrum of choices that VEI had, not a complete recreation of VH1 and not a completely different thing like VH2. Then it comes down to what do you take from VH1 and what do you change? This goes across all aspects of publishing - characters/titles, plotlines, writing style, art style, editing style, marketing, presentation, etc. etc.

There's no magical 'right' answer, because so few comic book publishing ventures have been successful long term. There's some 'conventional wisdom' that always seems to be going around comic people circles, that's usually based on whatever has recently found some success in the comic world, or is just a 'flavor of the month' idea. Then there's just speculation and opinions of fans, creators, and observers.

It's always a lot easier to speculate and criticize what is out than actually test your theories in the unpredictability and vagaries of the real market. I always try to keep that in mind when I think about these things. And the fact that a single issue of a professionally produced comic book is anywhere from a $15-25,000 investment, and that's just for the physical production, not including many of the other expenses even a small company would have.

[ManofTheAtom]

All that we're discussing is the exact same dilemmas that VEI faced in 2008-2011 or whenever they were deciding how to launch.

How much do you lean on the way things were done before? How much (and which) continuity do you use? Total Reboot?

I think most people agree that a 100% old school recreation wouldn't work. Too stale and too much empty nostalgia. Also the creators are older, comics are not the same, even if you wanted to do it a 100% recreation would never be the same.

So there has to be some amount of newness. How much and in what way? VH2 went totally new - all new creators, all characters completely re-imagined so only the titles and some of the basic premises were the same, no adherence to a unifying style. That seems like too much new, as it loses almost all connection to VH1, which was successful in many ways.

Now we're in the spectrum of choices that VEI had, not a complete recreation of VH1 and not a completely different thing like VH2. Then it comes down to what do you take from VH1 and what do you change? This goes across all aspects of publishing - plotlines, writing style, art style, editing style, marketing, presentation, etc. etc.

There's no magical 'right' answer, because so few comic book publishing ventures have been successful long term. There's some 'conventional wisdom' that always seems to be going around comic people circles, that's usually based on whatever has recently found some success in the comic world, or is just a 'flavor of the month' idea. Then there's just speculation and opinions of fans, creators, and observers.

It's always a lot easier to speculate and criticize what is out than actually test your theories in the unpredictability and vagaries of the real market. I always try to keep that in mind when I think about these things. And the fact that a single issue of a professionally produced comic book is anywhere from a $15-25,000 investment, and that's just for the physical production, not including many of the other expenses even a small company would have.

Definitely. I do think we can take Alien at their word when they say it won't be a reboot.

[Ryan]

All that we're discussing is the exact same dilemmas that VEI faced in 2008-2011 or whenever they were deciding how to launch.

How much do you lean on the way things were done before? How much (and which) continuity do you use? Total Reboot?

I think most people agree that a 100% old school recreation wouldn't work. Too stale and too much empty nostalgia. Also the creators are older, comics are not the same, even if you wanted to do it a 100% recreation would never be the same.

So there has to be some amount of newness. How much and in what way? VH2 went totally new - all new creators, all characters completely re-imagined so only the titles and some of the basic premises were the same, no adherence to a unifying style. That seems like too much new, as it loses almost all connection to VH1, which was successful in many ways.

Now we're in the spectrum of choices that VEI had, not a complete recreation of VH1 and not a completely different thing like VH2. Then it comes down to what do you take from VH1 and what do you change? This goes across all aspects of publishing - plotlines, writing style, art style, editing style, marketing, presentation, etc. etc.

There's no magical 'right' answer, because so few comic book publishing ventures have been successful long term. There's some 'conventional wisdom' that always seems to be going around comic people circles, that's usually based on whatever has recently found some success in the comic world, or is just a 'flavor of the month' idea. Then there's just speculation and opinions of fans, creators, and observers.

It's always a lot easier to speculate and criticize what is out than actually test your theories in the unpredictability and vagaries of the real market. I always try to keep that in mind when I think about these things. And the fact that a single issue of a professionally produced comic book is anywhere from a $15-25,000 investment, and that's just for the physical production, not including many of the other expenses even a small company would have.

Definitely. I do think we can take Alien at their word when they say it won't be a reboot.

I think it all depends on how it would be done. Another hard reboot (ala VEI) I think would be a bad idea(oops), because most likely you'd just be treading the same ground that VEI and VH1 already did (origins and beginnings of the main characters).

[Ryan]

I think one of the reasons VEI rebooted and it's always a discussion is because one of the major economic reasons for a comic book publishing universe to exist (in the modern times) is to serve as a template and springboard for stories in other mediums. Any movie, streaming series, animated series, video game, etc. is going to start from the beginning and tell that story first. Not saying it's right, but that's a big part of why these things reboot.

[ManofTheAtom]

All that we're discussing is the exact same dilemmas that VEI faced in 2008-2011 or whenever they were deciding how to launch.

How much do you lean on the way things were done before? How much (and which) continuity do you use? Total Reboot?

I think most people agree that a 100% old school recreation wouldn't work. Too stale and too much empty nostalgia. Also the creators are older, comics are not the same, even if you wanted to do it a 100% recreation would never be the same.

So there has to be some amount of newness. How much and in what way? VH2 went totally new - all new creators, all characters completely re-imagined so only the titles and some of the basic premises were the same, no adherence to a unifying style. That seems like too much new, as it loses almost all connection to VH1, which was successful in many ways.

Now we're in the spectrum of choices that VEI had, not a complete recreation of VH1 and not a completely different thing like VH2. Then it comes down to what do you take from VH1 and what do you change? This goes across all aspects of publishing - plotlines, writing style, art style, editing style, marketing, presentation, etc. etc.

There's no magical 'right' answer, because so few comic book publishing ventures have been successful long term. There's some 'conventional wisdom' that always seems to be going around comic people circles, that's usually based on whatever has recently found some success in the comic world, or is just a 'flavor of the month' idea. Then there's just speculation and opinions of fans, creators, and observers.

It's always a lot easier to speculate and criticize what is out than actually test your theories in the unpredictability and vagaries of the real market. I always try to keep that in mind when I think about these things. And the fact that a single issue of a professionally produced comic book is anywhere from a $15-25,000 investment, and that's just for the physical production, not including many of the other expenses even a small company would have.

Definitely. I do think we can take Alien at their word when they say it won't be a reboot.

I think it all depends on how it would be done. Another hard reboot (ala VEI) I think would be a bad idea(oops), because most likely you'd just be treading the same ground that VEI and VH1 already did (origins and beginnings of the main characters).

Definitely.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think one of the reasons VEI rebooted and it's always a discussion is because one of the major economic reasons for a comic book publishing universe to exist (in the modern times) is to serve as a template and springboard for stories in other mediums. Any movie, streaming series, animated series, video game, etc. is going to start from the beginning and tell that story first. Not saying it's right, but that's a big part of why these things reboot.

No doubt. It's unfortunate that there hasn't been much follow through with that.

[syzhang28]

I think one of the reasons VEI rebooted and it's always a discussion is because one of the major economic reasons for a comic book publishing universe to exist (in the modern times) is to serve as a template and springboard for stories in other mediums. Any movie, streaming series, animated series, video game, etc. is going to start from the beginning and tell that story first. Not saying it's right, but that's a big part of why these things reboot.

No doubt. It's unfortunate that there hasn't been much follow through with that.

Unfortunate but not surprising. If you can't get comics right, you're clearly not anywhere near the level to approach movies. Acclaim was a case of someone valuing their own medium ahead of comics, and that was a mistake. DMG is a case of people that probably have no business being anywhere near the decisions that run a comic book publisher, let alone movies.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think one of the reasons VEI rebooted and it's always a discussion is because one of the major economic reasons for a comic book publishing universe to exist (in the modern times) is to serve as a template and springboard for stories in other mediums. Any movie, streaming series, animated series, video game, etc. is going to start from the beginning and tell that story first. Not saying it's right, but that's a big part of why these things reboot.

No doubt. It's unfortunate that there hasn't been much follow through with that.

Unfortunate but not surprising. If you can't get comics right, you're clearly not anywhere near the level to approach movies. Acclaim was a case of someone valuing their own medium ahead of comics, and that was a mistake. DMG is a case of people that probably have no business being anywhere near the decisions that run a comic book publisher, let alone movies.

Well, sounds like Alien will be in charge of the publishing now. We have to hope they're better than Acclaim and SMG.

[syzhang28]

I think one of the reasons VEI rebooted and it's always a discussion is because one of the major economic reasons for a comic book publishing universe to exist (in the modern times) is to serve as a template and springboard for stories in other mediums. Any movie, streaming series, animated series, video game, etc. is going to start from the beginning and tell that story first. Not saying it's right, but that's a big part of why these things reboot.

No doubt. It's unfortunate that there hasn't been much follow through with that.

Unfortunate but not surprising. If you can't get comics right, you're clearly not anywhere near the level to approach movies. Acclaim was a case of someone valuing their own medium ahead of comics, and that was a mistake. DMG is a case of people that probably have no business being anywhere near the decisions that run a comic book publisher, let alone movies.

Well, sounds like Alien will be in charge of the publishing now. We have to hope they're better than Acclaim and SMG.

Agree, can't be worse the DMG and hopefully better than Acclaim who at least gave us some good comics.