The Subversive Naming Conventions of Early Valiant Titles

[jcdenton]

One of my favorite aspects of the early VH1 titles was how they weren't named after the actual main characters and/or the titles were actually antithetical to the main characters themselves—basically establishing the tone, before the first issues had even been released, of how Valiant would be openly defying established comic book tropes/conventions right from the outset.

Solar: Man of the Atom: Later in the series he reluctantly adopts the “Solar” name (perhaps because that’s what other people keep calling him) but he was always Phil Seleski, whereas “Solar: Man of the Atom” was always just a comic book character within the comic (with the possible exception of a brief time when part of Phil’s mind manifests itself physically in the form of the character).

Magnus Robot Fighter: The only early pre-Unity VH1 title specifically titled after the main character, yet the first storyline establishes very early on that he’s no longer a “Robot Fighter” but essentially the complete opposite.

Harbinger: While the protagonists are “Harbingers”, and they eventually come to be referred to as the “Harbinger Kids”, the title of the series is not “Harbingers” or “Harbinger Kids” but simply “Harbinger”, thus establishing that it’s named after the villainous Harbinger organization that they oppose, rather than the protagonists.

XO Manowar: The name of the type/class of armor the main character wears, as opposed to the character himself (despite—as was the case with Solar—other characters eventually referring to him as “XO”).

Rai: This one is debatable since the main character is indeed a Rai, but his name is Tohru Nakadai and he’s just one of dozens of Rai’s who have come before (and will come after) him. I supposed if it had been titled “The Rai”, it could be said that the title is specifically referring to him and only him, but instead they chose to title it as just “Rai”, i.e. the role rather than the character.

And, of course, if you compare the above to the VH1 titles which came afterwards, the difference is stark, with almost all subsequent titles following “standard” comic book naming conventions (with the possible exception of Geomancer, which also follows the “Rai” naming convention).

[Ryan]

Definitely, that was one of the things that set VALIANT apart and made it feel more intelligent and well thought out. I think that was a Shooter thing. Star Brand was the brand that gave him power, not what the hero called himself. Plasm was the name of the world, and substance of the world. Powers that Be, Star Seed, etc. at Broadway. It's an interesting approach that I don't think had been done before in comics.

[jcdenton]

Definitely, that was one of the things that set VALIANT apart and made it feel more intelligent and well thought out. I think that was a Shooter thing. Star Brand was the brand that gave him power, not what the hero called himself. Plasm was the name of the world, and substance of the world. Powers that Be, Star Seed, etc. at Broadway. It's an interesting approach that I don't think had been done before in comics.

Wow, yes I had forgotten about those. Definitely seems to be a Shooter thing, practically a 1-to-1 correlation, especially when you consider the timing of his Valiant departure.

Which raises the obvious question, I wonder how Shooter would have named those later Valiant titles?

[magnusr]

Which raises the obvious question, I wonder how Shooter would have named those later Valiant titles?

One was Project Rising Spirit.

/Magnus

[jcdenton]

Which raises the obvious question, I wonder how Shooter would have named those later Valiant titles?

One was Project Rising Spirit.

/Magnus

Are you saying that was Shooter's original idea for the name of the Bloodshot series?

[Ryan]

Yeah Magnus is right, the original name for Bloodshot was Rising Spirit. He's referred to as Rising Sprit in some of the solicitations. It seems like the name change and nanite blood powers were changes done after Shooter left.

http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/postunityprev.asp

[jmatt]

One of my favorite aspects of the early VH1 titles was how they weren't named after the actual main characters

Great observation, never really thought about that before.

[Chiclo]

Rising Spirit also helped with a connection to Rai, both in the first syllable but in that Rai means spirit. Very elegant.

[jcdenton]

One of my favorite aspects of the early VH1 titles was how they weren't named after the actual main characters

Great observation, never really thought about that before.

Thanks.

[jcdenton]

Rising Spirit also helped with a connection to Rai, both in the first syllable but in that Rai means spirit. Very elegant.

Holy crap! Didn't realize that.

[jcdenton]

Yeah Magnus is right, the original name for Bloodshot was Rising Spirit. He's referred to as Rising Sprit in some of the solicitations. It seems like the name change and nanite blood powers were changes done after Shooter left.

http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/postunityprev.asp

Wow, those are a lot of differences, and some pretty substantial ones at that.

What was the idea for Bloodshot's powers originally, if not nanite blood powers?

[Ryan]

Yeah Magnus is right, the original name for Bloodshot was Rising Spirit. He's referred to as Rising Sprit in some of the solicitations. It seems like the name change and nanite blood powers were changes done after Shooter left.

http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/postunityprev.asp

Wow, those are a lot of differences, and some pretty substantial ones at that.

What was the idea for Bloodshot's powers originally, if not nanite blood powers?

This is a topic I've been curious about. Like Chiclo says, with the name Rising Spirit it was clear there was always going to be a connection to Rai. There's an original version of Rai 0 that was drawn by Joe St. Pierre that some pages have surfaced from.

My opinion is that the original Rising Spirit would have had something to do with the original Rai power, the mysterious energy that Rai used to create weapons and that Mothergod couldn't control. After Shooter left the nanite blood replaced all that, which is why the new Rai had Bloodshot powers and the 'Rai energy' from the early Rai comics was never mentioned again.

Here's a thread about it from last year. http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39881

And this quote from the Valiant Masters Bloodshot Hardcover:

When it was agreed upon that Valiant needed a “butt kicking” character who fought by his own rules, Jim Shooter and I went to dinner and worked on fleshing out his character. After a few of these sessions Jim wrote up the proposal and I created this drawing that was inked by the great cartoonist Stan Drake. The character was to be a superior fighter with all types of weapons and no super powers. All of the arms and other equipment were not fictitious but based on real weapons. Our initial conception was revamped to become that fellow we all know and love... BLOODSHOT!

Don Perlin
August, 2012

[Ryan]

This solicitation blurb even refers to Rising Spirit/Bloodshot as RAI THE FIRST

[jcdenton]

This solicitation blurb even refers to Rising Spirit/Bloodshot as RAI THE FIRST

How ironic that the actual Rai 0 depicts the creation of Rai "the Last".

[Ryan]

How ironic that the actual Rai 0 depicts the creation of Rai "the Last".

Also ironic is that Rai 0 marks the point where Valiant goes from subversive, intelligent title naming to the cringiest of all titles, Rai and the Future Force

[jrnewto]

Regarding the Post-Unity solicits from Previews May 1992, my discussion with Jim Shooter from some years back revealed the following:
Jillian Alcott
While Unity #0 ("Ends Of The Earth") made it clear Gilad understood Jillian Alcott was almost certainly dying as he was summoned to Geoff, he did toss her the gun as he vanished. This would seem to suggest she was going to survive. Shooter has stated the reason for this is because he intended for her to be a romantic interest for Gilad, eventually. No "till death do us part," because, unlike Aram, Gilad couldn't deal with partners who passed away in, to him, a blink of an eye.

Andar the Geomancer and Geoff McHenry's death?
Regarding Andar potentially planned to replace Geoff McHenry as Geomancer, members here might remember in Solar, Man of the Atom #14, it was claimed "Solar brings Andar, the new Geomancer, into modern day Earth and sets out to right the ravages of UNITY." Prior to Dark Key, Shooter rewrote what Faye Perozich wrote for Magnus, Robot Fighter #12 ("Stone And Steel"), and he felt no need for Andaar to have a role in the Unity crossover at that point, and he was only there because Turok came to our time.

X-O Manowar
In Rai #0, Shooter had Aric Dacia send his X-O armour into space. He apparently had a plan for where it would end up, who would find it and when.

Solar's stalker
Shooter has stated that the character called Zachariah Muldoon who was stalking Solar had nothing to do with him.

Project: Rising Spirit
He didn't intend the character Bloodshot, but that Project: Rising Spirit would instead culminate in a new character, Jōshō Seishin (imbued with The Blood of Heroes). If the character wasn't going to be equivalent to what we saw with Bloodshot (basically the Punisher driven by nanites), the jury is still out on what powered Jōshō/Rai. Rai in Japanese is the masculine for trust, lightning and thunder, so a thunder god of sorts?

The Blood of Heroes
How could it be so valued over 2,000 years into the future (i.e. 4,100AD) when technology would have become so much more advanced in the interim? Otherwise was the original power not from our era but somewhere else?

Rai
Tohru Nakadai could use his Rai power to form weapons, which seemed beyond the capability of The Blood of Heroes. If not nanites, and more thunder, how?

Grandmother
Shooter saw Grandmother as similar to 1-A, a robot who achieved freewill by means of some disruptive event that broke down programming. His origin story, Magnus #0, he wrote for Dark Horse, never published, gave sense to his inclinations.

Eternal Warrior
He didn’t intend for Gilad and Aram to have a third brother, i.e. Ivar, believing the character violated established continuity.

The Harbinger strain
Shooter has stated he had no such plan to reveal Gilad as the forefather of all Harbingers or simply the first one, so what the solicit means is still a mystery.

Laugher in the Dark
He never intended the Laugher in the Dark/Master Darque to be revealed as a big bad in Rai #0.

Shooter did have vast and far-reaching plans for Valiant, which we sadly were prevented from seeing (same as Chris Claremont’s intended Dark Wolverine & Shadow King Sagas).

[Ryan]

Thanks for sharing, great stuff!

Project: Rising Spirit
He didn't intend the character Bloodshot, but that Project: Rising Spirit would instead culminate in a new character, Jōshō Seishin (imbued with The Blood of Heroes). If the character wasn't going to be equivalent to what we saw with Bloodshot (basically the Punisher driven by nanites), the jury is still out on what powered Jōshō/Rai. Rai in Japanese is the masculine for trust, lightning and thunder, so a thunder god of sorts?

The Blood of Heroes
How could it be so valued over 2,000 years into the future (i.e. 4,100AD) when technology would have become so much more advanced in the interim? Otherwise was the original power not from our era but somewhere else?

Rai
Tohru Nakadai could use his Rai power to form weapons, which seemed beyond the capability of The Blood of Heroes. If not nanites, and more thunder, how?

Never heard about Josho Seishin, but him being Japanese fits with him being Rai the First. The original Rai in VH1 Rai 1 was the 42nd Rai, right? So one could assume that whatever gives the Rai/Bloodshot his powers also would give him a very long lifespan, which also fits with other aspects of VALIANT continuity.

There's still a mystery as to the origin of the Rai Power/Blood. Just saying it was super advanced 1992 technology doesn't work.

Shooter did have vast and far-reaching plans for Valiant, which we sadly were prevented from seeing (same as Chris Claremont’s intended Dark Wolverine & Shadow King Sagas).

He needs to gather his notes and write it all down, so much gold!

[magnusr]

Thanks for sharing, great stuff!

+1

/Magnus

[jrnewto]

Thanks for sharing, great stuff!

You're most welcome.

Never heard about Josho Seishin, but him being Japanese fits with him being Rai the First. The original Rai in VH1 Rai 1 was the 42nd Rai, right?

Correct.

So one could assume that whatever gives the Rai/Bloodshot his powers also would give him a very long lifespan, which also fits with other aspects of VALIANT continuity.

If the power gives Rai a very long lifespan, and VH1 Rai was the 42nd Rai, that's an average of 47 years of age for each holder, which is not long!?!?!?

There's still a mystery as to the origin of the Rai Power/Blood. Just saying it was super advanced 1992 technology doesn't work.

I'm curious if Shooter intended nanites, or something else? Nanoparticles can be made by striking targets with high-energy ions from a plasma discharge.

He needs to gather his notes and write it all down, so much gold!

Do you mean Chris Claremont? Back on the old Comix-Fan Forums we hassled him about writing such a Samisdat but he advised that his entering exclusive contract at Marvel put the kibosh on that plan.

[Ryan]

If the power gives Rai a very long lifespan, and VH1 Rai was the 42nd Rai, that's an average of 47 years of age for each holder, which is not long!?!?!?

Yeah that sounds reasonable. In Rai 1 (flipbook) I don't think it's ever stated, but I got the impression the older Rai is meant to be very old, older than the average lifespan. It seems to me that's what the original Rai 0 intended, to link the Rai lineage to the present day and Rai the First (Rising Spirit) would show how it began. The published Rai 0 isn't that much different, it just replaces whatever the original Rai power was going to be with the nanite Blood of Heroes.

I'm curious if Shooter intended nanites, or something else? Nanoparticles can be made by striking targets with high-energy ions from a plasma discharge.

That's a good question. Maybe nanite blood was always going to be the answer, but Layton wanted to change the power from forming energy weapons to being able to control machines. It seems like both versions of the Rai power included super strength and speed, healing factor, a big red circle on the chest and pale white skin.

Do you mean Chris Claremont? Back on the old Comix-Fan Forums we hassled him about writing such a Samisdat but he advised that his entering exclusive contract at Marvel put the kibosh on that plan.

I meant Shooter. There should really be an effort made to collect all of his notes and memories from the development of VALIANT including future plans that were never realized. In Claremont's case the X-Men and Marvel are such media behemoths now it might make things like that more difficult.

[jcdenton]

"If the power gives Rai a very long lifespan, and VH1 Rai was the 42nd Rai, that's an average of 47 years of age for each holder, which is not long!?!?!?"

I'm trying to remember; are Rai's designated as such upon birth (or shortly therafter) or only after they're grown? i.e. would the 47-year estimate be their average age when they die, or just their average length of "career" as Rai?

I would think it's the latter since it seems highly impractical for Japan to go years without an effective Rai while waiting for the baby to grow up, but I also seem to remember seeing a little kid Rai in at least some of the issues.

And if it's the latter, depending on how often Rai's get killed while serving as Rai's, a 47-year career average seems pretty long, especially if many get killed within the first few years of service, meaning others would have extremely long (possibly superhuman) tenures to maintain that average.

[Ryan]

I'm trying to remember; are Rai's designated as such upon birth (or shortly therafter) or only after they're grown? i.e. would the 47-year estimate be their average age when they die, or just their average length of "career" as Rai?

Shortly after birth. In Rai 1 the new Rai has to give up his newborn son for Granny to train.

I would think it's the latter since it seems highly impractical for Japan to go years without an effective Rai while waiting for the baby to grow up, but I also seem to remember seeing a little kid Rai in at least some of the issues.

And if it's the latter, depending on how often Rai's get killed while serving as Rai's, a 47-year career average seems pretty long, especially if many get killed within the first few years of service, meaning others would have extremely long (possibly superhuman) tenures to maintain that average.

Yes I think the 47 year avg. would have to be for the tenure of service as a Rai. There would definitely have to be some that died quickly, so that means some Rais would have to serve for 100 years or more.

I don't think that's totally far-fetched in the context of the VALIANT universe. I don't remember the specifics, but I'm pretty sure it was established both in Gold Key Magnus and VH1 Magnus that the normal people of 4000 AD have quite a bit longer lifespans than people today. Add in the Rai powers or blood of heroes and it wouldn't be a huge stretch for them to live a hundred or two years in a world where there are some people who have lived for thousands of years.

[jcdenton]

How could it be so valued over 2,000 years into the future (i.e. 4,100AD) when technology would have become so much more advanced in the interim? Otherwise was the original power not from our era but somewhere else?

There's still a mystery as to the origin of the Rai Power/Blood. Just saying it was super advanced 1992 technology doesn't work.

I always thought it was actually a pretty cool plot device because of (rather in spite of) its implausibility/improbability; in other words, the idea that the developers of the Rising Spirit nanites managed to make (or stumble upon) a truly one-of-a-kind breakthrough in nanotech which was literally thousands of years ahead of its time, and which was then lost and never found (or even reverse-engineered) again. Which makes the Blood of Heroes that much more insanely valuable as a result.

Of course, I don't recall if that was ever truly explored and explained in terms of how the discovery was made (and subsequently lost).

[Ryan]

How could it be so valued over 2,000 years into the future (i.e. 4,100AD) when technology would have become so much more advanced in the interim? Otherwise was the original power not from our era but somewhere else?

There's still a mystery as to the origin of the Rai Power/Blood. Just saying it was super advanced 1992 technology doesn't work.

I always thought it was actually a pretty cool plot device because of (rather in spite of) its implausibility/improbability; in other words, the idea that the developers of the Rising Spirit nanites managed to make (or stumble upon) a truly one-of-a-kind breakthrough in nanotech which was literally thousands of years ahead of its time, and which was then lost and never found (or even reverse-engineered) again. Which makes the Blood of Heroes that much more insanely valuable as a result.

Of course, I don't recall if that was ever truly explored and explained in terms of how the discovery was made (and subsequently lost).

The way you explain it actually does sound cool. Too bad it was never suggested like that in the books (to my knowledge). I seem to remember it being explained that Bloodshot (Mortalli) only survived the process because he was a latent Harbinger. Can't remember which, but wasn't one of his powers explained as his Harbinger power and not from the blood?

[Sunlight on Snow]

How could it be so valued over 2,000 years into the future (i.e. 4,100AD) when technology would have become so much more advanced in the interim? Otherwise was the original power not from our era but somewhere else?

There's still a mystery as to the origin of the Rai Power/Blood. Just saying it was super advanced 1992 technology doesn't work.

I always thought it was actually a pretty cool plot device because of (rather in spite of) its implausibility/improbability; in other words, the idea that the developers of the Rising Spirit nanites managed to make (or stumble upon) a truly one-of-a-kind breakthrough in nanotech which was literally thousands of years ahead of its time, and which was then lost and never found (or even reverse-engineered) again. Which makes the Blood of Heroes that much more insanely valuable as a result.

Of course, I don't recall if that was ever truly explored and explained in terms of how the discovery was made (and subsequently lost).

The way you explain it actually does sound cool. Too bad it was never suggested like that in the books (to my knowledge). I seem to remember it being explained that Bloodshot (Mortalli) only survived the process because he was a latent Harbinger. Can't remember which, but wasn't one of his powers explained as his Harbinger power and not from the blood?

Hmm, it is only said that the one (Bloodshot) awakened by Geoff('s touch) is the first to survive the nanite infusion, however, it is never really explained why.....except for, maybe, being touched by Geoff.

The hero with both Harbinger abilities and the Blood is Takao Konishi, the Last Rai. His Harbinger ability let him force his will and motivation onto others. Again it was Geoff who talked to the Earth to find the spot where Grandmother's vault had crashed upon the Earth so that Takao could become the Last Rai (aka True Rai); at the end of Rai #0. He first uses his Harbinger ability during his Trump-like (:bugeyed:) "Greatness" speech at the beginning of Rai and the Future Force. It is then revealed as Harbinger ability a few issues later, when they're trying to save South Am.