Harbinger Wars II #1 Discussion

[grendeljd]

If anyone would like to hear our OTV:VCR podcast discussing/reviewing this issue [& Quantum & Woody (2017) #6], please follow the link;

http://onlythevaliant.com/episodes/vcr166/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks to any who listen in

[nonplayer]

I liked the issue well enough but I got some gripes but hold hope for a better second issue.
Amanda seems out of sorts I wouldnt expect her to be so stupid. And continue to do so.
The charaters actuelly seem off and the scenario feels kinda forced.
The art was off for me. Amanda, animalia and a few others but especilly peter. He looked like bloodshot in bloodshot reborn with the leather jacket.
It is very confusing to have bloodshot here in this issue but in 4002 at the same time.

I entertaimo this 2.75 out of 5. I expected more and some big thing.

[nonplayer]

What did other people think? Did anyone like it. Usuelly there are comments when an issue is liked

[TheFerg714]

I find it strange that it's so quiet here. I'm not really seeing any hype at all anywhere...

Anyway, I really liked it. OTV was complaining about mischaracterization, but I found everyone to be acting in character. Livewire did go way too far, but I totally understand why she would do it. She's always been willing to do anything for her cause, and this time her cause is of utmost importance to her because it's her family. She's going all den-mother on the world, and the world doesn't stand a chance.
Aric's reasoning (if she destroys the US, your people die too) seemed totally logical, and if I remember correctly, Aric went through a whole arc about seeing the whole world as under his protection. If Livewire is doing something this disastrous, of course he's going to step in eventually.
I don't Bloodshot was being controlled by Livewire... Sorry, I just didn't assume that. That would be highly unethical on Amanda's part.
Peter and co. have already proven that they will upturn the whole world to achieve their goals.
And I really don't get why people are so against Palmer's "villain" turn. This is completely 100% in character. He's always fought for his employer with gusto, and the fact that his actions are helping the US government as well this time probably gives him a little more pep in his step.

However, I'm going to be very disappointed if Solomon, Alpha, and Harada have nothing to do with this event.

[Bl00dsh0t]

My initial reaction is not good:

1. Characterisation feels way off. All of them aside from Ninjak.
2. Am I missing something major by not having read Harbinger Rengade 6-8? This book just doesn’t feel accessible. Will have to re read.
3. Where is Harada and what about that monster dude from Harbinger Renegade 0? That dude took out most of the HARD Corps, would’ve thought there’d be something referencing that in this first issue given Palmer has such a big role. Again, this feels like a great time for GATE to engage Harada, opportunity lost.
4. I know I mentioned characterisation in my first dot point but, really, what has happened to Bloodshot? In the limited page time he seemed a totally different character. This doesn’t reconcile with Bloodshot Salvation at all.
5. I’ve got a feeling this “event” is going to suffer from a lack of lead-in. Sure the prequel issue was cool but not having an ongoing or two building up this story just makes it feel messy. It doesn’t read well.
6. The art. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it was bad. Hopefully #2 is more consistent.
7. My final thoughts: reads more like the Ninjak vs The Valiant Universe than a book set in the current continuity

End of rant.

[TheFerg714]

2. Am I missing something major by not having read Harbinger Rengade 6-8? This book just doesn’t feel accessible. Will have to re read.
3. Where is Harada and what about that monster dude from Harbinger Renegade 0? That dude took out most of the HARD Corps, would’ve thought there’d be something referencing that in this first issue given Palmer has such a big role. Again, this feels like a great time for GATE to engage Harada, opportunity lost.

It's so strange because obviously they're holding onto some threads from Renegade, but Alpha and Solomon are nowhere to be found. If you want to know a little more about Alpha, read #6. If not, you might just check out issues 7-8.

5. I’ve got a feeling this “event” is going to suffer from a lack of lead-in. Sure the prequel issue was cool but not having an ongoing or two building up this story just makes it feel messy. It doesn’t read well.

Seriously. Who's idea was it to build up this major event with 10 comics, spread over a year and a half? And one those comics wasn't even readable unless you mailed those coupons! Super bad planning on VEI's part. You can't even blame DMG.

6. The art. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it was bad. Hopefully #2 is more consistent.

I liked it, but it was a little rough. Giorello works best with grand-scale action, which this series promises in the coming issues. Issue 1 was really just people talking.

[jxm640]

Ultimately, the issue suffers for two reasons. The first is that VEI books (will wait before I judge VMG/DMG whatever) seem to work much better as trades as opposed to working as individual issues.

The second reason is that the story feels cobbled together. I don't know who to blame for that though.

VEI didn't create a lead into the series that made sense. As Heisserers the focus on his characters in the prelude ruined what Roberts was building up to in Renegades.

However, DMG seems to have asked Kindt to make major changes to the structure of the story, leaving issue one feeling slightly confused.

The characterisations fell in line with each character, apart from Bloodshot (as if Lemire is being ignored).

In conclusion, this was an enjoyable read, but not the essential that reviews are calling it.

[TheeBaldMoose]

I started a rant, but it was everything you guys had already stated.

This book has a lot of ground to pick up, as this is quite confusing. It doesn't feel right, this whole thing doesn't feel right

[hawkeyeps]

I can't help but wonder where we would be now had Dysart's pitch been selected over Roberts, that was the critical error right there and we can't blame DMG for that

[Keith]

In the prelude we see Livewire received a seemingly desperate message from @x that set things off. It even said that if she was getting the message then @x was probably dead. Not a single reference to whatever that was in this issue. I don't recall if he was in the scene with the Renegades, so I suppose it's possible he's not there and something went down, but it sure would be odd not to have seen what that was.

I've lapsed in me reading, but Bloodshot already being aligned with Livewire... did we see anything in Salvation that got us to this point, or do we assume that Salvation occurs prior to HW2?

I'm less worried about the lack of Harada, Solomon, or Alpha at this point... however... I sure am curious how to see they get fit in with the remaining 3 issues + Aftermath. That has me nervous.

[kinggirlfriend]

For something that was teased/promoted for over a year out it seems rather slapped together. So many inconsistent random threads.

[grendeljd]

I think this was going to be a different story than what we've ended up with here.

To all the comments about how it feels cobbled together instead of something epic that had been "lead-up to" for over a year... I think the key factor was the loss of Heisserer when the DMG takeover was announced. He clearly left his plans for his work on this series in the dust, and only put together enough of the scraps to make the prelude issue happen (which I loved, even if Livewires actions were a tad extreme).

We were originally supposed to be getting 4 extra length issues (think it was to be 48 pages?), and now we've got four 22 page stories plus the bookend issues. I think that, beyond having less pages of story in total (even including the two extra issues), there was probably some last minute script tweaks to make this thing work out without Heisserer doing whatever he was going to do originally.

I found this issue to be a bit 'meh'... I also thought that the characters felt a little off & forced into a plot to make this whole thing happen (not as much as the mail-in zero issue was, but not much better). Hopefully we will still see some sign of Alpha, Harada or Solomon before this series plays out. It feels like an odd choice not to have any mention of them yet.

[grendeljd]

I find it strange that it's so quiet here. I'm not really seeing any hype at all anywhere...

Me too. Reeeally slow traffic over the last month or two.

[jmatt]

I'm not really feeling the dissonance others are. Sure, Livewire has gone off the deep end -- and I agree with the podcast's comparison to Magneto but the other characters are within their bounds. I would also take minor issue with Pete literally running around when he can fly.

The idea of sending all of the psiots to a single location is dumb, talk about sitting ducks.

I'm wondering if this doesn't end with the great schism... and Livewire rejoining Harada.

[nonplayer]

I'm not really feeling the dissonance others are. Sure, Livewire has gone off the deep end -- and I agree with the podcast's comparison to Magneto but the other characters are within their bounds. I would also take minor issue with Pete literally running around when he can fly.

The idea of sending all of the psiots to a single location is dumb, talk about sitting ducks.

I'm wondering if this doesn't end with the great schism... and Livewire rejoining Harada.

I think it ends with harada taking down amanda.

[Ryan]

The point of an 'event' is to showcase the line and bring in new or lapsed readers. As a lapsed reader trying to get back into Valiant, this one doesn't work for me. I just didn't feel any excitement or identify with any of the characters.

You guys already mentioned a lot of problems, my main one is the flawed logic behind the entire main conflict. Livewire took out the electricity of the entire country to 'protect her family' but it's never addressed how that would kill everyone on life support, babies in incubators, etc. etc. I can do some suspension of disbelief, but having this as the main conflict and no one really reacting realistically to it is too much of a stretch for me.

Also, why is it called Harbinger Wars 2? What is Harbinger? A lot of talk about Psiots but nothing about what Harbinger is.

On the art, Giorello is really great at rendering, but I think he would be better doing finishes for another penciler/layout artist. The spaces always seem flat and the figures look 'off' sometimes too. Why are everyone's eyes always in shadow? It makes it even harder to identify with the characters.

Final critique, this is totally unquantifiable, but it feels like no one involved in this is excited at all I mean it's a professional, competant comic book, but that's all it is. If I would have told my younger self that Harbinger Wars 2 would be coming out in 2018, I would have literally been bouncing off the walls. So why does reading this feel like a chore?

[Thegreatmagnet]

But on the bright side, at least they’ll use this meh “event” to justify “re-setting” most of the universe...what could go wrong?

[jmatt]

...my main one is the flawed logic behind the entire main conflict. Livewire took out the electricity of the entire country to 'protect her family' but it's never addressed how that would kill everyone on life support, babies in incubators, etc. etc. I can do some suspension of disbelief, but having this as the main conflict and no one really reacting realistically to it is too much of a stretch for me.

I think that's the thing that really seems askew for me: Livewire's reaction to a handful of killed psiots is disproportionate by many orders of magnitude. The events leading up to this in no way justifies what she's done. One of the heroes of the universe just did something that in the real world would be unimaginably horrific.

And from a larger perspective, I'm having difficulty understanding why editorial would greenlight this unbelievable expansion of her powerset. She just shut off the US without breaking a sweat. Can she just turn off the entire planet?

Lastly, I think HW2 will suffer from coming immediately on the heels of NvtVU. Just 30 days ago we wrapped a out-of-canon arc with Valiant heroes going up against each other, complete with a webseries. A month later and it's another story about something very similar. Sure, NvtVU probably was scheduled to be released quite some time ago, but the timing is not helping.

[agent_graves]

I didn’t like it as much as I thought I would, especially the art, but the overall story itself, just feels wrong/out of sync, and I’m not referencing what LiveWire did, she’s dealing with a corrupt government with a shoot first mentality, wtf was she suppose to do, just lay down. The psiots being killed are innocents too...

[Bl00dsh0t]

I gave it a week between reads and the issue still hasn't grown on me. It reads like something that is out-of-continuity.

If I hadn't already committed to my LCS (who only order Valiant for me and the occasional shelf copy) I would drop.

The Prequel issue had a lot of promise, this was just not good.

[Dallow Spicer1]

I think I’ll reserve judgement until I see how the event plays out. I agree that some of the characterisation felt ‘off’ eg Ninjak’s relationship with Livewire, Bloodshot (unless he’s being controlled by Livewire).

The art was mostly good except for Peter who looked like he’d aged considerably and was unrecognisable and Owen from Secret Weapons (you couldn’t tell he was Chinese?) but otherwise it was good.

I’m staying optimistic that this falls into place over the next 4 issues (including the post event issue).

3.25/5

[markie7235]

I didn’t like it as much as I thought I would, especially the art, but the overall story itself, just feels wrong/out of sync, and I’m not referencing what LiveWire did, she’s dealing with a corrupt government with a shoot first mentality, wtf was she suppose to do, just lay down. The psiots being killed are innocents too...

I kind of feel the same way. Livewire's team was being targeted for no reason other than they are psiots. And honestly that's what I like so much about this event so far is you can either be team government or team psiot, and both have compelling and flawed justifications to be made for their actions. I personally feel this is a very gray story in terms of morality, because both sides are wrong and playing chicken with the other. It also goes back to the original Valiant books of the Jim Shooter era, where all of the heroes were really flawed. It's part of what made the stories something you could relate to because they were people with amazing abilities but struggled with the same questions of morality and possible poor decision making without foreseeing all consequences of their actions. At the time in the 90s, where you were clearly a hero or a villain, it was a refreshing take that your heroes could be both depending on perspective. I see the same idea here.

I personally am waiting to judge this series based on the entirety of the story, and not off of one or two issues. Many of the loose ends or possible plot points not yet entered may come to pass still. Just too early to tell.

While I think this event will have lasting impact on future books, I don't think they will back many of the key characters into corners they can't come back from. For example, Livewire...I'm confident she will reverse or fix things before they go too far, and she already indicated in one panel that she thinks she might have gone too far already. We don't know that anyone directly will die from her actions, and a lot of that will depend on the time frame this takes place in....Hours, days, weeks, etc? I don't think it's been said yet, so if power is restored within a couple hours, odds of anyone dying from her actions are significantly lowered.

[greg]

Who is the newsman talking to in the first few pages? He's talking about the blackout... on camera... on television? the internet? Don't those things stop working in a blackout?

So, it's a BBC news channel, and the power is out for (most, not necessarily all) of North America and South America, but it's not out for the rest of the world. Livewire hasn't come right out and said "hospitals are fine", but there's a good chance they are fine. She's in control. Ninjak says we're 72 hours away from a problem... so, it's possible there's no problem yet.

[jmatt]

Ninjak says we're 72 hours away from a problem... so, it's possible there's no problem yet.

I agree they left enough room for her to not have committed mass murder.... but that satellite situation is serious and not going away soon.

[Big Red]

For something that was teased/promoted for over a year out it seems rather slapped together. So many inconsistent random threads.

Exactly.

Not good.