Hollywood names attached to Harbinger movie

[kjjohanson]

I find it interesting now that Brett Rattner's name was once attached to a potential Harbinger movie.

Seems now it would have been easy to put himself in the main protagonist's position.

I do wonder whether it will be more difficult for Harbinger to be made without some major changes to the canon. I always felt it was problematic that Pete was still treated as one of the good guys after what happened between him and Kris. And no, it didn't really help that Pete saw the error of his ways. I think a successful Harbinger movie might need to make him more of a supporting character. Treating Kris as the main character and having the arc deal with her as a victim of abuse might be the way to go.

[SuperMage]

This is a very important question, and I feel like eventually it will become an issue that the Valiant fandom will have to address. Especially with a Harbinger film coming out that will put Harbinger on the radar.

I have faith in Heiresser, and I hope the Harbinger film will give each of the characters equal screen time and not try to force too much on Peter.

[BugsySig]

I find it interesting now that Brett Rattner's name was once attached to a potential Harbinger movie.

Seems now it would have been easy to put himself in the main protagonist's position.

I do wonder whether it will be more difficult for Harbinger to be made without some major changes to the canon. I always felt it was problematic that Pete was still treated as one of the good guys after what happened between him and Kris. And no, it didn't really help that Pete saw the error of his ways. I think a successful Harbinger movie might need to make him more of a supporting character. Treating Kris as the main character and having the arc deal with her as a victim of abuse might be the way to go.

Kris makes sense as the viewer's entry into the world of Harbinger. As the only non-powered person, telling the story from her perspective would be important. I also don't think you have to change the cannon, or minimize Pete as a central character. Just paint him as an *SQUEE* and addict and psychotic. He doesn't need top be the hero, but you need him as the counterpoint to Harada. You can completely trash him, only to "redeem" himself int he end by taking on Harada at his own expense. You can even take him off the board after that (by killing him off or sending him to space) only to return later.

[Funcha]

And here I thought this was some news about the Harbinger movie! DAMN IT!

[kjjohanson]

And here I thought this was some news about the Harbinger movie! DAMN IT!

Maybe I should have chosen a different subject. Sorry about that.

[WrathOfArmstrong]

And here I thought this was some news about the Harbinger movie! DAMN IT!

Me too. But this is important all the same.

I've always looked at what Peter did as signs of his immaturity. He's not ready for any of this. It goes back to 'what if you could be invisible.' Nearly every single teen guy is going to check out the girl's locker room. It's not right, but that's where most males of that age's mind lead them.

It's a lack of empathy.

It's easy to cloud one's judgement and constantly think--if I just do this 'she'll see and she'll love me.' With maturity comes the realization that not everybody is 'into you' and you can't make anyone do anything. If you actually like a person you learn to respect them versus trying to find a way to make them 'like you.'

This moment in the comics was important to me. This is where Dysart hooked me and separated this story from being another take on X-Men.

Going forward, Peter is a 'strong' character because he keeps struggling to grow, but I feel like he is constantly trying to but he doesn't know how to, he gives up and makes a ton of mistakes. His destiny is to square off against Harada and that's a tough task. And I don't think he realizes yet the kind of work he needs to put in to be the savior.

I would love for it to be in the film because as males we are not taught these repercussions. Instead we're shown James Bond and just about any other lead male in a film that when he can't get the girl, he just grabs her and kisses her until 'oh that icy shoulder of hers was all an act--this is what she always wanted.'

Some men in our culture have made this mentality more than their mantra--and it's terribly relevant today. I think this Harbinger film--if brave enough to include this pivotal moment--would have greater importance than most if not all of the super hero movies that have come out already.

Peter crosses a line and I read that character as being forever remorseful--and that is why I root for him because he himself has been horrified by his actions.

Kris is another amazing character that Dysart achieves a lot of depth with, but she's just as complicated to like as Peter. She causes some pretty big mistakes herself. But she's incredibly strong--especially considering her lack of powers.

But I think the character easiest to make the lead or the audience's lead-in is Faith. Her optimism is very empowering and the thrust that drives these characters to be better than they have been. I think even if the studio doesn't want to bank a movie on a fat girl, she's going to come away the star.

But Peter mind-controlling Kris probably doesn't sell any action figures...

[geocarr]

I think a successful Harbinger movie might need to make him [Pete] more of a supporting character. Treating Kris as the main character...might be the way to go.

I think so too.

Kris makes sense as the viewer's entry into the world of Harbinger. As the only non-powered person, telling the story from her perspective would be important. I also don't think you have to change the cannon, or minimize Pete as a central character. Just paint him as an *SQUEE* and addict and psychotic. He doesn't need top be the hero, but you need him as the counterpoint to Harada.

Totally.

I've always looked at what Peter did as signs of his immaturity. He's not ready for any of this.

It's a lack of empathy.

This moment in the comics was important to me. This is where Dysart hooked me and separated this story from being another take on X-Men.

I'd say more underdeveloped empathy than lack of but potato potato. I too think it would work well in the film to distinguish it from X-Men like you say.

Going forward, Peter is a 'strong' character because he keeps struggling to grow, but I feel like he is constantly trying to but he doesn't know how to, he gives up and makes a ton of mistakes. His destiny is to square off against Harada and that's a tough task. And I don't think he realizes yet the kind of work he needs to put in to be the savior.

Peter crosses a line and I read that character as being forever remorseful--and that is why I root for him because he himself has been horrified by his actions.

I want to see and feel this in Pete's character in the movie.

Kris is another amazing character that Dysart achieves a lot of depth with, but she's just as complicated to like as Peter. She causes some pretty big mistakes herself. But she's incredibly strong--especially considering her lack of powers.

But I think the character easiest to make the lead or the audience's lead-in is Faith. Her optimism is very empowering and the thrust that drives these characters to be better than they have been. I think even if the studio doesn't want to bank a movie on a fat girl, she's going to come away the star.

Yes!! I think Kris should be the lead character and lead perspective with Faith a close second and the movie should contrast Faith to Kris and make the audience love them both for different reasons, and Pete should be this emotionally complicated character that you have to decide if you're sympathetic for or not with omega level powers but some selfish anti-hero thrown in there.

[FormerReader]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

Don't get me started on dysart making Peter into a rapist and drug addict. Turning one of your strongest characters and making him into such a flawed individual was a wasted opportunity to me.

[kinggirlfriend]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

I do agree with this. I never found her interesting. Really all the Renegades are seriously immature. Flamingo was probably the most mature because she saw the world for what it really was and understood it. Not the classiest group but that's why I love them.

I always felt it was problematic that Pete was still treated as one of the good guys after what happened between him and Kris. And no, it didn't really help that Pete saw the error of his ways.

If people aren't allowed to learn from their mistakes then we are all doomed. Unfortunately that is where we kind of are right now as a society. There's a big scarlet letter mentality these days where the slightest transgression forever labels someone as sexist, racist, ageist, druggie, flat-earther, etc. I'm not a religious person AT ALL but there's definitely something to that forgiving people business.

[kjjohanson]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

I do agree with this. I never found her interesting. Really all the Renegades are seriously immature. Flamingo was probably the most mature because she saw the world for what it really was and understood it. Not the classiest group but that's why I love them.

I always felt it was problematic that Pete was still treated as one of the good guys after what happened between him and Kris. And no, it didn't really help that Pete saw the error of his ways.

If people aren't allowed to learn from their mistakes then we are all doomed. Unfortunately that is where we kind of are right now as a society. There's a big scarlet letter mentality these days where the slightest transgression forever labels someone as sexist, racist, ageist, druggie, flat-earther, etc. I'm not a religious person AT ALL but there's definitely something to that forgiving people business.

The problem with focusing on Pete, even if he sees the errors of his ways and changes for the better, is that there is still a victim that paid a price. That particular aspect of the situation I don't think was addressed satisfactorily in the comics. That's what I'm getting at. Forgiveness/redemption should be in Kris's hands.

[Wodwulf Seaxaning]

I always felt it was problematic that Pete was still treated as one of the good guys after what happened between him and Kris. And no, it didn't really help that Pete saw the error of his ways.

If people aren't allowed to learn from their mistakes then we are all doomed. Unfortunately that is where we kind of are right now as a society. There's a big scarlet letter mentality these days where the slightest transgression forever labels someone as sexist, racist, ageist, druggie, flat-earther, etc. I'm not a religious person AT ALL but there's definitely something to that forgiving people business.

As an ex-WN Skinhead I can relate Kinggirlfriend to what you said here - I made horrible choices in my life, nearly ended up in prison or dead. Eventually got out of the movement, I eventually fell in love with a Black Woman for a few years. I have zero animosity towards non-whites, interracial couples or gays; but because of my Libertarian & patriotic politics, I am often called a racist, fascist, sexist, transphobe & other labels because I don't walk the leftist line. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others but unless given a chance to grow & learn we'll never over come.

I love these kind of stories that take a flawed person & have then struggle to overcome their issues. Some of my favorite characters are like that (take Bloodshot) & one of my favorite comic series has a collection of flawed characters though not as flawed as Pete but they still struggle.

[The Chosen 1]

Isn't that part of the hero's journey? Although Pete's is a bit different, its usually the call to adventure, the journey, the fall, transformation and redemption? Although Pete's is more the Fall, call to adventure and journey, and then redemption.
Is he redeemed? I think he's making an effort to be a better person, and he may still have some relapse, but he seems to fit the mold of being a central part of the story. Kris on the other hand really doesn't have a redemption story, although that can be introduced if need be.

[jmatt]

My expectation is that the movie writers will ignore everything that's inconvenient for their story and perhaps produce something that only slightly resembles current canon.

[grendeljd]

And here I thought this was some news about the Harbinger movie! DAMN IT!

Me too. But this is important all the same.

I've always looked at what Peter did as signs of his immaturity. He's not ready for any of this. It goes back to 'what if you could be invisible.' Nearly every single teen guy is going to check out the girl's locker room. It's not right, but that's where most males of that age's mind lead them.

It's a lack of empathy.

It's easy to cloud one's judgement and constantly think--if I just do this 'she'll see and she'll love me.' With maturity comes the realization that not everybody is 'into you' and you can't make anyone do anything. If you actually like a person you learn to respect them versus trying to find a way to make them 'like you.'

This moment in the comics was important to me. This is where Dysart hooked me and separated this story from being another take on X-Men.

Going forward, Peter is a 'strong' character because he keeps struggling to grow, but I feel like he is constantly trying to but he doesn't know how to, he gives up and makes a ton of mistakes. His destiny is to square off against Harada and that's a tough task. And I don't think he realizes yet the kind of work he needs to put in to be the savior.

I would love for it to be in the film because as males we are not taught these repercussions. Instead we're shown James Bond and just about any other lead male in a film that when he can't get the girl, he just grabs her and kisses her until 'oh that icy shoulder of hers was all an act--this is what she always wanted.'

Some men in our culture have made this mentality more than their mantra--and it's terribly relevant today. I think this Harbinger film--if brave enough to include this pivotal moment--would have greater importance than most if not all of the super hero movies that have come out already.

Peter crosses a line and I read that character as being forever remorseful--and that is why I root for him because he himself has been horrified by his actions.

Kris is another amazing character that Dysart achieves a lot of depth with, but she's just as complicated to like as Peter. She causes some pretty big mistakes herself. But she's incredibly strong--especially considering her lack of powers.

But I think the character easiest to make the lead or the audience's lead-in is Faith. Her optimism is very empowering and the thrust that drives these characters to be better than they have been. I think even if the studio doesn't want to bank a movie on a fat girl, she's going to come away the star.

But Peter mind-controlling Kris probably doesn't sell any action figures...

Great post - I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. I would lean more towards what geocarr also said in response to the empathy issue - I'd call it under-developed rather than a lack of it.

My expectation is that the movie writers will ignore everything that's inconvenient for their story and perhaps produce something that only slightly resembles current canon.

Hopefully not the case, but I can see it happening that way. If it held to the themes that Dysart imbued into the characterization, it would certainly stand out more as unique from the inevitable XMen comparisons.

[WrathOfArmstrong]

My expectation is that the movie writers will ignore everything that's inconvenient for their story and perhaps produce something that only slightly resembles current canon.

I think you're right. Which is unfortunate.

You can probably get around what Peter does to Kris by just having him control her enough to run away with them, and then unleash her when they are on their own. She could still be mad at him for taking control over her but kissing and any other sexual transgressions would clearly be absent. It could just be his naiveté that she would want to run away with him.

But that's such a strong bite to water down.

It's not the oversaturation of Superhero movies that has dulled my excitement for them, it's that the films themselves are nearly interchangeable and don't have anything to say. It's not so much of a storytelling experience as it is a taste, a beverage. Digest and move on. That said, I think it's an odd choice for Valiant to lead with both Harbinger and Bloodshot--since both lend themselves towards r rated material (violence) if they stay true to the material. XO would seem the friendliest to all movie goers.

[geocarr]

I think the mental health angle with Pete should be used but not overused if you know what I mean. I think they are or are going to do that with Polaris in The Gifted.

[kinggirlfriend]

The important thing about Pete is balancing him against Harada. Yeah, Pete does some questionable stuff, but Harada is evil. Although they are both doing what they perceive to be good. That's what made Dysart's run so great. Without that it will just be another generic story about superpowered people. Yes, it's up to Kris to decide if she forgives Pete, but that doesn't mean Pete can't get on with his life and grow and learn from his mistakes without her approval.

Pete starts off as a creepy scummy kid but learns to be a better person. Harada gives the impression of someone who is altruistic and charismatic, then the truth comes out that he's a cold blooded murder, and schemer who uses everyone. For me that's where the contrast lies. I'd hate it if the movie get's too caught up on Pete's rape of Kris, but it does need to be there, IMO.

[Sven the Returned]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

High School was not a thing for most of history. People lead man into battle and yet theywere under 18.

[FormerReader]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

High School was not a thing for most of history. People lead man into battle and yet there were under 18.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that you don't become a leader overnight. Leadership is developed through your environment and experience. The fact I'm supposed to believe that a super powered being has no leadership in his body, but the girl who up to this point has done nothing of any significance has a natural leadership instinct that all of a sudden manifests itself is what is not believable.

[jmatt]

She could still be mad at him for taking control over her but kissing and any other sexual transgressions would clearly be absent. ...But that's such a strong bite to water down.

They could pull it off if, as you say, it's watered down. They can have him take control, they kiss passionately, Kris gets aggressive and pulls off her top (which no real nudity is seen) and then something happens that ends the moment (knock on the door, etc) and they move on.

But there is no way they can have the protagonist mind-control another into a complete sexual act and not have it destroy the audience's regard for Pete. They did a rape with The Comedian in Watchmen, but he was a character you were intended to dislike from start to finish.

[Sven the Returned]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

High School was not a thing for most of history. People lead man into battle and yet there were under 18.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that you don't become a leader overnight. Leadership is developed through your environment and experience. The fact I'm supposed to believe that a super powered being has no leadership in his body, but the girl who up to this point has done nothing of any significance has a natural leadership instinct that all of a sudden manifests itself is what is not believable.

It is called acton movie logic.

[Phoenix8008]

I'm sorry guys, but I think kris is a terrible character. I can't take her seriously as a "leader" of the group. She is some high school kid and all of a sudden she has developed the ability to lead a group of super powered humans?

High School was not a thing for most of history. People lead man into battle and yet there were under 18.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that you don't become a leader overnight. Leadership is developed through your environment and experience. The fact I'm supposed to believe that a super powered being has no leadership in his body, but the girl who up to this point has done nothing of any significance has a natural leadership instinct that all of a sudden manifests itself is what is not believable.

I don't see having super powers as automatically granting someone more 'leadership' ability or potential than someone without powers. And I believe you CAN become a leader overnight. Maybe not a good or a great leader, but it can happen in a instant. When everybody around you is panicking, or standing still in shock, if you're the one who says "Lets handle this like so..." and the others follow, then you're the leader. Even if it was a dumb idea (like robbing a bank and flipping off the camera and then giving the money to your parents and expecting that they'll be able to keep/use it), it was still more of a plan than doing nothing.

Peter has the power to enforce his will on most. His feelings toward Kris, and mostly his guilt over what he did to her, put him in a place where he would 'do anything' to make it up to her. Effectively putting his power at her disposal... if she chose to use it. She's smart (maybe not as smart as she thinks, but smart). She figured that she can use him/his powers for more good than he would otherwise accomplish on his own. To do that, she just had to... lead him... and tell him what to do and how to do it. All the others owed Peter for giving them their powers, so they followed him. Peter owed Kris for what he did to her, so he followed her. It's not some grand General Patton level of leadership that she has, it's a little bit of smarts and a lot of guilt which made her the leader of the Renegades in my opinion.

[WrathOfArmstrong]

Peter has the power to enforce his will on most. His feelings toward Kris, and mostly his guilt over what he did to her, put him in a place where he would 'do anything' to make it up to her. Effectively putting his power at her disposal... if she chose to use it. She's smart (maybe not as smart as she thinks, but smart). She figured that she can use him/his powers for more good than he would otherwise accomplish on his own. To do that, she just had to... lead him... and tell him what to do and how to do it. All the others owed Peter for giving them their powers, so they followed him. Peter owed Kris for what he did to her, so he followed her. It's not some grand General Patton level of leadership that she has, it's a little bit of smarts and a lot of guilt which made her the leader of the Renegades in my opinion.

great points. I've witnessed people in situations become leaders because they weren't 'panicking' (or more specifically mourning a death with sobs and visual depression). They took the reigns and though it was unspoken, most really appreciated it. I think it's the same with the Renegades. Kris isn't surrounded by any leaders and their situation kept getting out of hand. When they realized they couldn't look to Peter, here was Kris saying what needed to be done. And Peter wasn't going to argue. I think he was just as grateful to let her lead. His whole life is about avoiding responsibility.

Dysart's characterizations are phenomenal. I don't see him using action movie logic.