Harbinger: Renegade #5 Discussion

[nonplayer]

Nice way to repay them for stopping the world wide bug infestation of Mexico.
Over all I was under welmed. I didn't get Gen ∅ ongoing but liked the charaters. Guess Christan bill have to make more caps.

[Keith]

So, to recap:
Deceased
Vagabond, killed by Animalia
Granite, killed by Animalia
Wyrm, killed by the Zygos Twins

Chronus, killed by sniper, presumably Flatline
Telic, killed by Gunslinger
Gamette, killed by Disciple

MIA/Possibly Deceased
Cloud, last seen during the plane crash

Captured
The Zygos Twins, captured by Disciple

Escaped
Animalia
Keisha Sherman

While I think many of us are debating the Iconic claims, I'd say it's undebatable to say *SQUEE*! Went! Down!!

[TheeBaldMoose]

For those of us that read Gen Zero, it was spelled out for us all along! This is from the very last page of Gen Zero #9!



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[SiegeTheBox]

Honestly, I was not really a fan. I didn't like the end result. The characters seemed off. I know they were going for kind of a complex, grey morality, but HARDCorps (especially Charlie) just came across as *SQUEE*. And the deaths didn't feel meaningful at all. It felt like Roberts was just throwing them away. Seemed very unceremonious. I mean, I guess I'm in the minority here, but I honestly thought it was pretty bad.

[TheeBaldMoose]

Hey,

what's the difference between Jam and Jelly?

I can't step on a Jamfish on the beach!

Haha!

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[jmatt]

Gotta say, I didn't see this coming. At least not to this extent. To be honest, the character deaths don't bother me, it shows that VEI is willing to do bold things and churn the company character roster. Without it, things start to get stale after a while.

Palmer is a thoroughly unlikable character. He was questionable up til now -- but here he's a borderline psychopath.

So, Cronus went out with by implant detonation, you say? I didn't recall the Gen 0 kids having them. I assumed Telic was warning him that Palmer had another gun.

Also, perhaps I'm forgetting it but I don't recall Gen 0 taking complete control of Rook.

[jeremycoe]

So, Cronus went out with by implant detonation, you say? I didn't recall the Gen 0 kids having them. I assumed Telic was warning him that Palmer had another gun.

Also, perhaps I'm forgetting it but I don't recall Gen 0 taking complete control of Rook.

Cronus was taken out by sharpshooter.

The Gen 0 kids took control of Rook in issue #10.

[pixierosa]

So, to recap:
Deceased

Chronus, killed by Lifeline

While I think many of us are debating the Iconic claims, I'd say it's undebatable to say *SQUEE*! Went! Down!!

It wasn't Lifeline. "Techs" don't go into the field. We never see who actually pulls the trigger. I'm curious if that will come up again as a possible story device or if we are meant to assume it was Flatline, the only other HC member who wasn't already actively in battle.

[pixierosa]

Palmer is a thoroughly unlikable character. He was questionable up til now -- but here he's a borderline psychopath.

I thought he was a bit extreme, too, but after a second read, I realized the shock of the deaths and the battle gore was coloring my view of him. We don't see him in anything but battle mode game face, so he's going to be a hard *SQUEE*. Not the time for small talk or questioning your mission. He did show concern and care for his team, trying to give them advice to stay alive. He also tried to apprehend Cronus and Telic, but both of them fought back. Those two killed a lot of his people last time out (HW1), so he had no love for them or reason to be merciful, yet he did try. He's been a part of HC for what, over a decade? Given PRS's long-standing war with Harada, Palmer probably has plenty of bias and distrust for psiots.

If Omen is anything like PRS, they consider Palmer one of their assets. He has to stick with their program or his brain blows up. And if you have to do a mission, you're going to want the tools and the team necessary to be successful -- that's the only reason why I can think of why he was so nonchalant about needing more crew for Solomon.
He's still very gray to me. I think this massacre will serve to make it more momentous when the HC joins forces with the psiots to take on the real threat (which we have yet to meet). This isn't the War, just a foothill before the mountain.

[kinggirlfriend]

Against all odds I ended up liking Gen Zero. But this was pretty great, and actually makes sense. If scary kids with powers took over a small town it'd be dealt with as a hostage/terrorist situation.

I like seeing more of the Hard CORP and the new PRS, OMEN. This felt like 2012/2013 Valiant to me.

I like what this set up, a big take down of Solomon.

Palmer did seem over the top. Is he on drugs?

I'm so glad they spared Monica Jim. She is such a good character with a such a unique power. It's probably hurts more this way anyways. That panel of her as the bird crying why flying away was probably my favorite part.

Gamete seems like a waste of potential. I wonder what Dysart's plans for her were?

I didn't care much for the first 4 issues but this got me back on board and excited for what's to come!

[Elveen]

If I was a younger man I'd be willing to fight everyone claiming not "major" character.

Did you read Harby Wars??????????

Also, BEST 1st line of ANY Valiant character EVER!


But I'm an older man now, so it's ok to have a difference of opinions.

Overall, the end result is a bummer.

[Keith]

So, to recap:
Deceased

Chronus, killed by Lifeline

While I think many of us are debating the Iconic claims, I'd say it's undebatable to say *SQUEE*! Went! Down!!

It wasn't Lifeline. "Techs" don't go into the field. We never see who actually pulls the trigger. I'm curious if that will come up again as a possible story device or if we are meant to assume it was Flatline, the only other HC member who wasn't already actively in battle.

D'oh. Thanks for the catch, Amy. I meant Flatline, not Lifeline. I'll edit my OP.

[Bl00dsh0t]

A lot of mixed feelings, although it's less about character, and more about story and continuation from what came before....

She survived, so I'm good...

Overall, I liked it, a little thin though. (24pgs) I assumed the 5 month gap would allow for the story to be expanded, (40pgs) and include the characters that was billed to show up....

Anyone know if there will be another hiatus once this arc is done with? I hope we see Harbinger month to month, would be great to get a bunch of issues leading into May next year with HW2...this issue is a great primer for that event.

[jeremycoe]

If I was a younger man I'd be willing to fight everyone claiming not "major" character.

Did you read Harby Wars??????????

Also, BEST 1st line of ANY Valiant character EVER!


But I'm an older man now, so it's ok to have a difference of opinions.

Overall, the end result is a bummer.

I'll give you mid-major

[agent_graves]

A lot of mixed feelings, although it's less about character, and more about story and continuation from what came before....

She survived, so I'm good...

Overall, I liked it, a little thin though. (24pgs) I assumed the 5 month gap would allow for the story to be expanded, (40pgs) and include the characters that was billed to show up....

Anyone know if there will be another hiatus once this arc is done with? I hope we see Harbinger month to month, would be great to get a bunch of issues leading into May next year with HW2...this issue is a great primer for that event.

Unfortunately, next issue is an interlude, "Massacre" resumes in September...

[Elveen]

If I was a younger man I'd be willing to fight everyone claiming not "major" character.

Did you read Harby Wars??????????

Also, BEST 1st line of ANY Valiant character EVER!


But I'm an older man now, so it's ok to have a difference of opinions.

Overall, the end result is a bummer.

I'll give you mid-major

Maybe Gonzaga level?

[Sunlight on Snow]

Well played Valiant and Rafer! I did not see this coming at all and it was quite a roller-coaster. Twice I thought Animalia would be the one - after the first half page and when Palmer activated the bomb in mid air.

Brutal story and as h.a.r.d. as it sounds I'm quite happy with who got killed and who survived. No complaints there!

The only only only downside is that the next issue will be an interlude and we won't see Pete and Kris again before September. He, at least we'll see Kris again. Woohoo!

Epic issue! And great continuation on many levels... Gen Zero down... P.R.S. to Omen and trying to get their hands on Solomon... Animalia officially becoming a Renegade (soon).

I love Valiant!

ps. Killing off Gamete like that was extra brutal.

[jeremycoe]

If I was a younger man I'd be willing to fight everyone claiming not "major" character.

Did you read Harby Wars??????????

Also, BEST 1st line of ANY Valiant character EVER!


But I'm an older man now, so it's ok to have a difference of opinions.

Overall, the end result is a bummer.

I'll give you mid-major

Maybe Gonzaga level?

I was thinking more along the lines of a school that at least attempted to play football, but sure.

[Sunlight on Snow]

For those of us that read Gen Zero, it was spelled out for us all along! This is from the very last page of Gen Zero #9!



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I guess I didn't pay enough attention when I finished reading Gen Zero back then!

[jaden_sai]

putting this here, if anyone's interested:

INTERVIEW: Valiant on Harbinger Renegade #5 & the Death of [SPOILERS]
http://www.cbr.com/valiant-death-harbin ... &view=list

[grendeljd]

Well I seem to be in the minority on this, but here goes. This issue was a ham-fisted trainwreck of poor storytelling all around. Despite the 'graphic' nature of all the violence & brutality, I was left feeling absolutely nothing for any of the characters or the scenario. The only residual emotional impact this had on me was disappointment that VEI let something like this go out the door, and anger at the absolute mishandling the Gen Zero characters have suffered since Dysart left. Seriously, no one else could figure out how to write these guys well? [even FVL, whose work I love!] And now they've just killed most of them off in a big gimmicky marketing-driven manouvre? That is severely disappointing.

I thought that the core concept of sending the HARD Corps into Rook to deal with Gen Zero was a great plot point to build a story around, but then every aspect of the delivery of this issue by the creative/editorial/marketing team [other than colours & lettering] completely butchered it. The real massacre that happened here was to the high standards of storytelling we have generally come to expect from VEI.

If anyone is still reading this - sorry to be so harsh, I'm sure I just sound like a grumpy curmudgeon but I am generally very objective & measured in my opinions - especially when voicing them publicly.

I'd say more, but since most of the responses have been largely supportive of this issue, I doubt anyone wants to hear much more from me

[grendeljd]

The headline I gave my review is " See me after class."

http://www.comicsthegathering.com/revie ... renegade-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT: soooo....apparently Valiant had my review taken down because they claimed it had spoilers. Personally I dispute that any plot details ran afoul of the instructions that they provided with the review PDF. In any event, the review will be re-posted in its entirety on Friday.

I really think the spoiler thing is being overblown, especially since there are now multiple podcasts that go full spoiler. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the review being negative...

I read your review & thought it was good, dude! But honestly, I can see why they might have had it pulled. You didn't spoil anything directly, but by process of elimination, I think someone could guess what happened generally based on what you wrote.

[grendeljd]

If I was a younger man I'd be willing to fight everyone claiming not "major" character.

Did you read Harby Wars??????????

Also, BEST 1st line of ANY Valiant character EVER!


But I'm an older man now, so it's ok to have a difference of opinions.

Overall, the end result is a bummer.

I thought of you right away. You & Dysart - they really took a *SQUEE* on these characters. Total bummer, man - sorry they did this.

[grendeljd]

I believe what Valiant is trying to do is sell comic books.

Of course that is the ultimate goal, but when that goal supersedes the quality of the product [in this case, in terms of storytelling] there is a serious problem. At least for me there is.

This one is a shocker. It will punch you in the gut.

Unfortunately, I strongly disagree with you on that. I read your review, it is well written & thoughtful as usual - and 99% of the time, I agree with your opinions & enjoy it very much when you think of things I don't. But this comic was just poorly executed [pun intended] across the board.

I sincerely do not like saying such negative things publicly, especially about creative professionals [whom I have nothing but immense respect for as a rule], but I need to express my disappointment over this book. I can't keep it to myself this time.

[grendeljd]

I also want to say that I disagree with those who feel the Gen Zero characters are second/third tier characters and that its okay that they've been killed off instead of any "major" characters. Everyone is entitled to their opinions & I'm not personally attacking anyone who feels that way, I simply disagree with that opinion.

These characters all had immense potential to be a fresh group of awesome new characters in the modern Valiant universe. Its not tragic that they've mostly been killed off in a horrific battle & or that their lives have been tragically cut short before they reached their potential, they've just been *SQUEE* on as a concept & its sad that [for me, at least] that emotion has nothing to do with the actual story written about their deaths.

If they had been allowed to continue developing on the path that they started out with, I doubt anybody would currently be feeling like they aren't that important. The Gen Zero comic had some solid moments, I love FVL's writing in general - but originally there was a depth of maturity & complexity to them that was lost in that series. The high concept for them was twisted to fit into something they're not meant to be, in my opinion.